Jungle Cruise Update

[mickEblu]

I hear the rent's pretty good for those.

They'll probably redub his voice with some random Hispanic celebrity who sounds nothing like the original. Is George Lopez still a draw?

Doing that would make it look like they support Amber Heard. Which, let's face it, they probably do. It ain't fair, but I wouldn't put it past them.

True but I’ll take some political correctness to end up in a change I like for once.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Look. I hate when Disney panders to people who have no understanding or context of what they are talking about. But I don’t need some external source to analyze the problems with the Jungle Cruise natives.

There’s a reason why we kept bringing it up last year. I’m surprised anyone is opposed to this specific part of the update. Is the ride really going to suffer that much by replacing its B-Plot with something less offensive? I don’t think so.

 

[FruitSaladAndApplePie]

It's ridiculous that people are mad over this change. A couple of changed scenes and no more racist caricatures on the ride? That's my two cents on the matter.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Oh man, my eyes hurt from reading all the back patting.


Nope, she's racist. Belittling and throwing accusatory statements against white people. Silencing people through guilt, sickening.

My opinion doesn't matter, and can't matter, because I have white privilege. I'll 'just go enjoy that white lincoln'. Disgusting.

Wait. Are you serious? Like, are you really this ridiculously bitter? As of June,I've been an active member here for twenty years, and I don't think I've ever seen anything so pathetic be posted.

 

[DanielBB8]

We don't know the full extent of the change. Besides, the best jokes are "He's got a pretty good deal for you guys today…two of his heads for just one of yours. ... Oh look, a 'skull-pture'.”".

 

[FruitSaladAndApplePie]

Oh man, my eyes hurt from reading all the back patting.


Nope, she's racist. Belittling and throwing accusatory statements against white people. Silencing people through guilt, sickening.

My opinion doesn't matter, and can't matter, because I have white privilege. I'll 'just go enjoy that white lincoln'. Disgusting.

Pathetic

 

[Californian Elitist]

I know! She immediately turned it into a racial discussion and started throwing around white and black labels on users.

Take a long look at your bison painting you picked up in Montana. Might help you feel better.

Chile, the ignorance.

 

[SuddenStorm]

True but I’ll take some political correctness to end up in a change I like for once.

You almost have to feel sorry for the Imagineers and the situation they've been put in. It's now decided that a lot of the work of the legendary Imagineers of Walt's time isn't appropriate for modern audiences.

So the Bobs want change.

Trouble is, there's a reason the designers of Walt's time are held in such high regard- there's not many alive who can top the work they did. And frankly, no one in modern WDI strikes me as capable of creating a vignette that's of the same quality of Marc Davis. And they can't change too much, since it still has to be that attraction- and since they can't create a better gag they may as well alter the existing vignette to be less offensive. At least I assume that's the thought process internally.

So then we get the Auction chicken scene. Which is a failure on multiple fronts- from costume and character design, voice acting, staging- that scene went from a simple gag that took half a second to pick up on, to something that makes little sense and isn't funny. It functions as a parody of the original scene without any of the charm and wit that made the original scene work. But hey, they didn't have Mr. Frees to do the voice work, or Marc Davis to redesign it.

The pole gag will still work in this new version- I assume it will be staged exactly as the current one is. They might add an obligatory "It looks like Skipper Dan and his crew are in a tough situation- that Rhino is sure to get his point across in the end" or something for the sake of story.

The African tribe section is hardly the strongest part of the ride- that honor goes to the Elephant bathing pool. So I hope that modern WDI is able to design a scene that outdoes the original- and is able to blend in with the rest of the attraction, and not stick out like WDI's modern additions to classic attractions tend to do.

On a side note, I would have preferred they put a traditional African restaurant where the Tropical Hideaway is. The food in the current restaurant is sub par, and traditional African cuisine isn't highly represented in the US. This could have been a wonderful and unique way to add traditional African culture to Disneyland. Just like a Tiana Restaurant/dark ride complex built where the New Orleans Train Station currently is would be a wonderful addition to New Orleans Square and would give Imagineering the opportunity to build a multi level complex that integrates the train station, and design a ride that's suited to Tiana and her story far better then shoehorning it into Splash.

 

[castleparker]

Am I wrong? Her post went off on a tirade about racial inequality and started using the words black and white and then talked about white privilege and how we 'can't get it' because of our skin color.

Yes. By this comment alone you continue to prove her point. You are not "getting it." Her point just went right over you. Just keep digging your hole deeper.

 

[Disney Analyst]

Am I wrong? Her post went off on a tirade about racial inequality and started using the words black and white and then talked about white privilege and how we 'can't get it' because of our skin color.

You're wrong, or severely misinterpreting. Or just playing devils advocate for some reason. Unsure.

 

[mickEblu]

You almost have to feel sorry for the Imagineers and the situation they've been put in. It's now decided that a lot of the work of the legendary Imagineers of Walt's time isn't appropriate for modern audiences.

So the Bobs want change.

Trouble is, there's a reason the designers of Walt's time are held in such high regard- there's not many alive who can top the work they did. And frankly, no one in modern WDI strikes me as capable of creating a vignette that's of the same quality of Marc Davis. And they can't change too much, since it still has to be that attraction- and since they can't create a better gag they may as well alter the existing vignette to be less offensive. At least I assume that's the thought process internally.

So then we get the Auction chicken scene. Which is a failure on multiple fronts- from costume and character design, voice acting, staging- that scene went from a simple gag that took half a second to pick up on, to something that makes little sense and isn't funny. It functions as a parody of the original scene without any of the charm and wit that made the original scene work. But hey, they didn't have Mr. Frees to do the voice work, or Marc Davis to redesign it.

The pole gag will still work in this new version- I assume it will be staged exactly as the current one is. They might add an obligatory "It looks like Skipper Dan and his crew are in a tough situation- that Rhino is sure to get his point across in the end" or something for the sake of story.

The African tribe section is hardly the strongest part of the ride- that honor goes to the Elephant bathing pool. So I hope that modern WDI is able to design a scene that outdoes the original- and is able to blend in with the rest of the attraction, and not stick out like WDI's modern additions to classic attractions tend to do.

On a side note, I would have preferred they put a traditional African restaurant where the Tropical Hideaway is. The food in the current restaurant is sub par, and traditional African cuisine isn't highly represented in the US. This could have been a wonderful and unique way to add traditional African culture to Disneyland. Just like a Tiana Restaurant/dark ride complex built where the New Orleans Train Station currently is would be a wonderful addition to New Orleans Square and would give Imagineering the opportunity to build a multi level complex that integrates the train station, and design a ride that's suited to Tiana and her story far better then shoehorning it into Splash.

I have nothing to add. Well said!

 

[FruitSaladAndApplePie]

I know! She immediately turned it into a racial discussion and started throwing around white and black labels on users.

I was talking about you

 

[Miru]

You almost have to feel sorry for the Imagineers and the situation they've been put in. It's now decided that a lot of the work of the legendary Imagineers of Walt's time isn't appropriate for modern audiences.

So the Bobs want change.

Trouble is, there's a reason the designers of Walt's time are held in such high regard- there's not many alive who can top the work they did. And frankly, no one in modern WDI strikes me as capable of creating a vignette that's of the same quality of Marc Davis. And they can't change too much, since it still has to be that attraction- and since they can't create a better gag they may as well alter the existing vignette to be less offensive. At least I assume that's the thought process internally.

So then we get the Auction chicken scene. Which is a failure on multiple fronts- from costume and character design, voice acting, staging- that scene went from a simple gag that took half a second to pick up on, to something that makes little sense and isn't funny. It functions as a parody of the original scene without any of the charm and wit that made the original scene work. But hey, they didn't have Mr. Frees to do the voice work, or Marc Davis to redesign it.

The pole gag will still work in this new version- I assume it will be staged exactly as the current one is. They might add an obligatory "It looks like Skipper Dan and his crew are in a tough situation- that Rhino is sure to get his point across in the end" or something for the sake of story.

The African tribe section is hardly the strongest part of the ride- that honor goes to the Elephant bathing pool. So I hope that modern WDI is able to design a scene that outdoes the original- and is able to blend in with the rest of the attraction, and not stick out like WDI's modern additions to classic attractions tend to do.

On a side note, I would have preferred they put a traditional African restaurant where the Tropical Hideaway is. The food in the current restaurant is sub par, and traditional African cuisine isn't highly represented in the US. This could have been a wonderful and unique way to add traditional African culture to Disneyland. Just like a Tiana Restaurant/dark ride complex built where the New Orleans Train Station currently is would be a wonderful addition to New Orleans Square and would give Imagineering the opportunity to build a multi level complex that integrates the train station, and design a ride that's suited to Tiana and her story far better then shoehorning it into Splash.

Well, the modern attractions that are good are good for other reasons than viginettes, so you have a point there.

 

[el_super]

You almost have to feel sorry for the Imagineers and the situation they've been put in. It's now decided that a lot of the work of the legendary Imagineers of Walt's time isn't appropriate for modern audiences.

Why feel sorry for them? That's part of the nature of creative work, and it's definitely something that Walt embraced, and it's historically precedented for the Jungle Cruise.

Way back in 1954, Harper Goff was assigned as the original designer of the Jungle Cruise. As the story goes he modeled a lot of it on the old African Queen movie (which he later stated Walt never saw!). It was designed as a completely straight laced tour of jungle wildlife. A lot of what we consider the "bones" of the original Jungle Cruise was designed by Goff:

This version of the Jungle Cruise, masterfully created by one of Walt's original artists lasted ... about 6 years. In a typical story for Disneyland history (mostly apocryphal and probably highly embellished), Walt overheard a guest say that they were bored with the Jungle Cruise and had "already seen it all."

In 1961, Walt basically ripped out the entire ride, save for the eastern flank with Schweitzer Falls, and completely rebuilt it. This time with the humorous caricatures from Marc Davis. The extend of the renovation seems lost on some folks today, but when I say they ripped out the ride, well (from the orange county archives):

This was a complete tonal change for the attraction, one that would mostly endure until the 1990s, when the time period was adjusted to match Indiana Jones and the new landing was built.

So honestly, if Walt wasn't afraid to backtrack and redesign an attraction, why should modern Disney be any different? Isn't the broader point, the thing to learn directly from Walt, is that attractions need to be entertaining and engaging for the guests, and if the guests want something different, you have to accommodate them. Changing the Jungle Cruise, or Splash, or Pirates, or everything else coming down the line, to make them more engaging for modern guests is the right thing to do.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

Am I wrong? Her post went off on a tirade about racial inequality and started using the words black and white and then talked about white privilege and how we 'can't get it' because of our skin color.

I’ll be honest as someone who is somewhat sympathetic to your position - I think she was trying to share her personal experience. It wasn’t intended as a slight at “white people” but to offer a perspective on representation. Given European characters at Disney parks have been both villains, heroes, and everything in between since its conception in 1955 there are more opportunities to imagine oneself reflected as part of the tapestry of the park.

While I’ve long been stated my concerns about slippery slopes and hope today’s imagineers can thread this needle precariously there’s no doubt that the Jungle Cruise much like the original “Injin” scene on Rivers of America relies on cultural tropes that are historically out of date.

My “hope” for this modern age is that there is a way to still positively represent different cultures in the park without whitewashing in a way that is still equally humorous, thrilling, and/or entertaining on balance for most guests (which, fingers crossed, seems to be the case here). I also don’t think we need to be as concerned with “historical accuracy” as whether the ride is perceived as fair to all guests.

But in the end a ride is a ride. Speaking from my own point of privilege what I take away is that what is nostalgia for some is seen a broader representation of outdated historical tropes. Ultimately as a fan community we’re united in our love of the parks, and I’d bet even Marc Davis and Walt himself would not have chosen this as a hill worth dying on.

 

[mickEblu]

Why feel sorry for them? That's part of the nature of creative work, and it's definitely something that Walt embraced, and it's historically precedented for the Jungle Cruise.

Way back in 1954, Harper Goff was assigned as the original designer of the Jungle Cruise. As the story goes he modeled a lot of it on the old African Queen movie (which he later stated Walt never saw!). It was designed as a completely straight laced tour of jungle wildlife. A lot of what we consider the "bones" of the original Jungle Cruise was designed by Goff:

View attachment 526813

View attachment 526814

View attachment 526815

This version of the Jungle Cruise, masterfully created by one of Walt's original artists lasted ... about 6 years. In a typical story for Disneyland history (mostly apocryphal and probably highly embellished), Walt overheard a guest say that they were bored with the Jungle Cruise and had "already seen it all."

In 1961, Walt basically ripped out the entire ride, save for the eastern flank with Schweitzer Falls, and completely rebuilt it. This time with the humorous caricatures from Marc Davis. The extend of the renovation seems lost on some folks today, but when I say they ripped out the ride, well (from the orange county archives):

View attachment 526829


This was a complete tonal change for the attraction, one that would mostly endure until the 1990s, when the time period was adjusted to match Indiana Jones and the new landing was built.

So honestly, if Walt wasn't afraid to backtrack and redesign an attraction, why should modern Disney be any different? Isn't the broader point, the thing to learn directly from Walt, is that attractions need to be entertaining and engaging for the guests, and if the guests want something different, you have to accommodate them. Changing the Jungle Cruise, or Splash, or Pirates, or everything else coming down the line, to make them more engaging for modern guests is the right thing to do.

Sorry but you need throw out any improvements that were made to primitive 1950s attractions where Walt ran out of money and built a whole park with a million dollars or whatever the number was. It’s apples and oranges.

 

[el_super]

Sorry but you need throw out any improvements that were made to primitive 1950s attractions where Walt ran out of money and built a whole park with a million dollars or whatever the number was. It’s apples and oranges.

It wasn't a money issue that changed the original Jungle Cruise, it was a complete tonal shift. That was the point. Walt could have spent more money to just build up and expand Goff's Jungle Cruise, but he didn't. He completely changed it.

 

[mickEblu]

These boards have me made realize that there are certain human beings where you ll just never agree on anything. Like how is that? How is it possible to end up on the other side of every debate with certain people? Wide ranging subjects too.

 

[mickEblu]

It wasn't a money issue that changed the original Jungle Cruise, it was a complete tonal shift. That was the point. Walt could have spent more money to just build up and expand Goff's Jungle Cruise, but he didn't. He completely changed it.

Point still stands. The tonal shift may not have happened if the 55 version was a masterpiece. If they had built the POTC of Jungle Cruises in 55 I’m going to guess they don’t tinker with it 6 years later. Point is the park was a baby and was growing. Any example from those first 10 years needs to be thrown out

 

[PiratesMansion]

Am I the only one stunned by that photo of the JC practically LEVELED in the mid 60s?!?!?

It really does put the 60s changes in a whole new context, to really appreciate the depth of what they did.

Does anyone know of any good writing on these particular changes besides the general "change the tone, add the gags, 'Walt heard them say they'd already seen it'" that is seen so commonly? Process, detail, etc.?

There is so little writing I've seen on Jungle Cruise compared to some of the other classics.