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Jungle Cruise Update

DavidDL

Well-Known Member
I don't think one needs to feel sorry for Imagineers for being put in an "impossible situation" because their predecessors were some kind of untouchable gods of creativity or art. While true that they're in an impossible situation, it's not because there isn't talent in the world. Rather, they've likely got their hands tied by folks higher up looking to approve projects that meet a very specific set of qualifications, thus limiting their creativity. When you have folks at the top with little to no creative mindset, who have a habit of trying to quickly cash in and approve only tried and true trends, you get less room for experimentation or something unique to be created.

In other words, the concept of "Blue Sky" is (mostly) a myth. I don't believe for a second there aren't talented artists with creative ideas out there who could come up with something superb to match folks of past like Marc, but it doesn't mean anything if ideas like that aren't what get approved down the pipeline.

There are exceptions here and there, I think. I could list an example or two of the company making what I feel to be some genuinely daring/risky/creative choices recently but they would side track the thread.
 

Miru

Well-Known Member
I don't think one needs to feel sorry for Imagineers for being put in an "impossible situation" because their predecessors were some kind of untouchable gods of creativity or art. While true that they're in an impossible situation, it's not because there isn't talent in the world. Rather, they've likely got their hands tied by folks higher up looking to approve projects that meet a very specific set of qualifications, thus limiting their creativity. When you have folks at the top with little to no creative mindset, who have a habit of trying to quickly cash in and approve only tried and true trends, you get less room for experimentation or something unique to be created.

In other words, the concept of "Blue Sky" is (mostly) a myth. I don't believe for a second there aren't talented artists with creative ideas out there who could come up with something superb to match folks of past like Marc, but it doesn't mean anything if ideas like that aren't what get approved down the pipeline.

There are exceptions here and there, I think. I could list an example or two of the company making what I feel to be some genuinely daring/risky/creative choices recently but they would side track the thread.
People might also bring up Superstar Limo and Habit Heroes, but on the other hand we have Everest, Mystic Manor, etc.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

These boards have me made realize that there are certain human beings where you ll just never agree on anything. Like how is that? How is it possible to end up on the other side of every debate with certain people? Wide ranging subjects too.

What I've found is that many people across the internet don't listen. They lead every topic with some kind of bias, respond to comments in a knee jerk fashion, and then proceed to talk over one another. Mix in farfetched opinions and, in some cases, downright lies and misinformation and there you go. We're all guilty of doing some or all of this.

There have been a range of posts here in the past 24 hours from non-black fans clearly stating that they have received what @raven24 and I have said about racial representation at Disneyland. I'm offering gratitude to you for speaking up and respecting our viewpoint. I see you and I Thank you.
 

DavidDL

Well-Known Member
People might also bring up Superstar Limo and Habit Heroes, but on the other hand we have Everest, Mystic Manor, etc.
I think it can be summed up pretty well when you branch off of Everest. The man whose vision that was is also the man in charge of Mission: Breakout!. In my humble opinion, two vastly different end results. Now, Joe did everything he could with what he was given regarding Mission: Breakout!, but in there lies the general issue I imagine most Imagineers have: what they were given. Or what they're allowed to do.

Joe has proven he could lead a project into something beautiful like Everest. But it doesn't mean anything if the orders from up on high are more often than not; "Get it done fast, cheap and in time for the movie tie-in to be released this Summer".

As you've pointed out, there are glimmers of light that manage to work their way through the cracks of the more corporate/financial mindset. I just think there should be a better balance. The corporate and financial aspects of weighing risk vs. reward are important, even people like Walt needed those "boring" people to reel him back every now and again to make things work. But right now I feel like we've got too much of the "boring" side calling the shots.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
What I've found is that many people across the internet don't listen. They lead every topic with some kind of bias, respond to comments in a knee jerk fashion, and then proceed to talk over one another. Mix in farfetched opinions and, in some cases, downright lies and misinformation and there you go. We're all guilty of doing some or all of this.

There have been a range of posts here in the past 24 hours from non-black fans clearly stating that they have received what @raven24 and I have said about racial representation at Disneyland. I'm offering gratitude to you for speaking up and respecting our viewpoint. I see you and I Thank you.
Agreed on all fronts. Thank you @mickEblu for your respectful manner.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
Thank you for this post. Many folks seem to have a "they're coming for everything we have" sort of mindset when changes like this occur to attractions. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Rather, "they" are just asking for fair and equal representation.

As a white man, things can get a little tricky when I talk about stuff like this because on one hand, I need to try and understand where people of color are coming from and on the other, it is impossible for me to do so. But that's okay. Myself (-and others) need only do one thing when situations like this arise: listen. Listen to the folks who speak up about long standing, harmful representation in attractions like this and use our white privilege (yes, it is a thing) to do to something about. The privilege myself and others were born with need not be a negative thing. Recognize that we have it and use it to do something good in this world by speaking up or taking action with it until we reach a point where we're all on as equal footing as possible.

This is not some kind of one off, "SJW" or "woke" attack like some might claim. Those folks tend to cry out things like, "But when will it end?" or "Will we just give in to any demand that any "offended" person makes after coming off an attraction?". I answer; it will end when the long standing complaints about the systemic problems presented in the attraction do. -and also, no, Disney and others won't just "give in" to any rando who wants something changed in an attraction because they don't like it. During my time working Haunted Mansion Holiday, I had some religious folks bug me at the entrance about feeling offended that the magic of Christmas would be combined with such "evil Pagan rituals". Those complaints have basically fallen on deaf ears because they don't have a clear and present majority behind them. Which by extension means, maybe the issue isn't as a big a deal as they were trying to make it out to be. Those folks are obviously welcome to feel the way they do and aren't "wrong" to feel said way, but maybe they need to take a step back and realize that since enough of those complaints aren't happening, maybe there isn't as big of a "problem" as they think there might be.

But the complaints about depictions in attractions like Jungle Cruise and Splash have obviously been assessed differently by Disney after weighing what is in front of them. Just because some of the folks around here haven't heard the larger, sizeable amount of complaints personally doesn't mean they aren't there or that Disney hasn't. After the changes to Splash were announced, I messaged some folks of color I'd never spoken to before on other Disney fan sites to get their thoughts and they all told me that the depictions and voices used for some of the characters made them uncomfortable when riding. I've never experienced something like that and never thought anything of it when riding or working at Splash and while yes, it can be uncomfortable to have your sense of reality shattered and sad to see something you love go, I would rather know that my fellow man standing next to me in line is about to have a good as time as I am.

Attractions can be made inclusive and still be made well. I am by no means advocating or supporting Disney make a "lesser" product. Changes to the Jungle Cruise can be executed amazingly well AND be inclusive/less harmful to people of color. Honestly, if Disney didn't have a track record of things like Pixar Pier and Mission: Breakout!, I feel like far less people would be worried about the statement, "changes coming to *insert attraction here*". There would still be some folks complaining about "wokeness" or "SJW agendas" because they don't want to see any kind of change at all but there's nothing you can do about that except try to be the proverbial lighthouse to their ship about to run aground. The decision to crash is on them.

To any folks willing to throw things like, "Well, white people are portrayed as villians/thugs/goons in media and attractions, too!" around as a rebuttal, the key word there is "too". The bigger issue I believe people of color have is that they don't have enough positive portrayal to balance out the obvious bad that all races can and will be subjected to. I ask sincerely, do you honestly think a handful of portrayals similar to the natives in Jungle Cruise would be as much of an issue to people of color visiting if they had more positive portrayals of themselves elsewhere in the park? The bigger issue is that it's frankly one of the only forms of portrayal they have. -and that's not right.

No one is coming to take away what us whites have. There's always going to be movies made with characters like Anna and Elsa. We're good on that front and that's not a "problem". What we need is more representation with characters like Black Panther, Raya, Moana, Tiana, etc. to compliment the former. Imagineers of old were brilliant but the only time they really considered a sentiment like that was with "it's a small world". I think it's a good thing that things are changing direction. I do however, just want the changes to be done with quality. All Guests deserve a quality overhaul to Splash and Jungle Cruise for the price point we pay to get in.

But those are just my ramblings. I'd love to listen to and hear what those who are actually more affected by the systemic issues in park have to say.
We need more people like you. Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I read every single last word of this post and both loved and agreed with it.

Thank you!
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
Am I wrong? Her post went off on a tirade about racial inequality and started using the words black and white and then talked about white privilege and how we 'can't get it' because of our skin color.
I hate the "you don't understand why it's offensive because you're white". I'm not Indian, but I still think Raj from The Big Bang Theory is offensive towards Indians.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I hate the "you don't understand why it's offensive because you're white". I'm not Indian, but I still think Raj from The Big Bang Theory is offensive towards Indians.
Understanding that something is problematic and understanding why it's problematic are not automatically the same.

Knowing it hurts to break your leg and knowing the feeling of having your leg broken are not the same - and if I had to choose who to listen to about how bad it is, I would listen to the one who is experiencing it.
 

Nirya

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one stunned by that photo of the JC practically LEVELED in the mid 60s?!?!?

It really does put the 60s changes in a whole new context, to really appreciate the depth of what they did.

Does anyone know of any good writing on these particular changes besides the general "change the tone, add the gags, 'Walt heard them say they'd already seen it'" that is seen so commonly? Process, detail, etc.?

There is so little writing I've seen on Jungle Cruise compared to some of the other classics.

Yesterworld did an episode about it in August.


There are some sources in the video description that might lead you to more stuff.
 

Nirya

Well-Known Member
Isn't it also entirely possible that the ride may contain some "Problematic" elements but that Disney's solution may not exactly be the best way of going about "Plussing It"? I mean, judging by their approach to everything in recent history, I'm worried.

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Or rather, there are some elements of the ride that should be changed, but there's going to be a constant worry on how those changes will go based on recent track record.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Point still stands. The tonal shift may not have happened if the 55 version was a masterpiece.

You're trying to compare the physical product with the concept. I'm saying he changed the concept of it, because he felt the concept was outdated. The original physical product may have been lacking, and provided the opportunity to change, but then why do you think they changed the concept?
 
Might be an unpopular opinion with some of the don't change anything to old rides Disney fans but I think this is great that they are updating it.

The last few times I went on it at both parks I thought it was a bit stale and boring simply cause it was the same thing for so many years. These new updates at least will give it a nice refresher and a reason to go back on it at some point. It's not like they are gutting the ride entirely.
 

DavidDL

Well-Known Member
Might be an unpopular opinion with some of the don't change anything to old rides Disney fans but I think this is great that they are updating it.

The last few times I went on it at both parks I thought it was a bit stale and boring simply cause it was the same thing for so many years. These new updates at least will give it a nice refresher and a reason to go back on it at some point. It's not like they are gutting the ride entirely.

I definitely think that one positive Jungle Cruise fans can take away from this is that the attraction they care about will likely be around for long time. Investing in a major refurbishment for an attraction like this doesn't normally mean it's on Disney's chopping block any time soon. While I'll never be able to take any kids I have on the Tower of Terror here in CA, this decision tells me I'll have Jungle Cruise to share with them, at least. Hopefully they'll like it more than I do, hah!
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one stunned by that photo of the JC practically LEVELED in the mid 60s?!?!?

For the record, I did crop this image to highlight the Jungle Cruise, but the original is such a gem:

1611697448180.png
 

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el_super

Well-Known Member
Might be an unpopular opinion with some of the don't change anything to old rides Disney fans but I think this is great that they are updating it.

I actually think it's great that they're updating it. I don't think any attractions were meant to just be stale museum pieces. Unfortunately nostalgia tends to force stagnation over time. I really liked the changes they added last time (with the water explosions and piranhas), so here's hoping the next one turns out too.
 

Homemade Imagineering

Well-Known Member
I definitely think that one positive Jungle Cruise fans can take away from this is that the attraction they care about will likely be around for long time. Investing in a major refurbishment for an attraction like this doesn't normally mean it's on Disney's chopping block any time soon. While I'll never be able to take any kids I have on the Tower of Terror here in CA, this decision tells me I'll have Jungle Cruise to share with them, at least. Hopefully they'll like it more than I do, hah!
That’s how I like to see the JC situation. I’ll just tell you, that if they ever fully removed/bulldozed and erased PotC, IASW, JC or HM from DLR, there is a 100% chance I wouldn’t spend anymore money on Disney. It also would result in the biggest park’s PR nightmare ever, so I don’t think they’d ever try such a thing, no matter how much the execs may want to.
 

DavidDL

Well-Known Member
That’s how I like to see the JC situation. I’ll just tell you, that if they ever fully removed/bulldozed and erased PotC, IASW, JC or HM from DLR, there is a 100% chance I wouldn’t spend anymore money on Disney. It also would result in the biggest park’s PR nightmare ever, so I don’t think they’d ever try such a thing, no matter how much the execs may want to.

So, while I'm in agreement that if Disneyland ever got rid of something like the Haunted Mansion, I would stop going (I would just be too heartbroken to bear it), I don't necessarily believe they will be there forever. I'd like them to be, don't get me wrong. If it were up to me, they'd stay. But as hard as it may be for me to wrap my head around; I have to just sort of accept that years and years from now, things may change. Maybe something will happen to Pirates or Mansion that makes it simply not worth it to the company to keep them running. Not likely in our lifetimes but if Disneyland is still around, say, 200 years from now? Never say never, none of us can know what the future will bring.

I think the conversation that opened my eyes to this happened a long time ago when my father and I were discussing where he'd want his ashes scattered someday. He's the biggest Mansion fanatic I know. His home is filled with memorabilia and he takes a lot of inspiration from the attraction when Halloween comes around. So one of the places I mentioned was, "Mansion, obviously, right?". -and he told me "No." Taken aback I asked him why the heck not and he told me, "Because let's be realistic, someday it won't be there but I will be. -and what if I end up not liking what they build in it's place? I wouldn't want to spend eternity there.".

Just something to think about.
 

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