Jungle Cruise Update

[networkpro]

To be fair Depp did not do anything wrong. She was the abuser.

Cold and calculating from the onset.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

@Kram Sacul something funny?

 

[180º]

That’s you though. You’re welcome to not feel anything when you float by white animatronics, not feel inspired, and move on. But this isn’t about how this effects white people. I as a black woman experience color, race, and representation in an entirely different way. The lack of healthy and diverse representation of the black community has been a cycle that continued for centuries, especially here in America, and has just now started to shift a bit. There’s a reason why black people went nuts and spent money on brand new outfits just to see Black Panther at the theater. Finally we were seeing ourselves on the big screen not as slaves and savages/“thugs,” but as a powerful and intelligent group of black people.

It’s not “just a fun ride at an amusement park” for us minorities who rarely see ourselves in progressive and healthy/different in entertainment. You have the privilege (yes, privilege) of not having to worry about NOT seeing your race represented in diverse and plentiful ways. Growing up as a black child in the early 90s with no proper representation anywhere I looked, including Disneyland, as well as attending school with mostly white children obliterated my self esteem. I HATED being black and wished I was white. I hated my kinky hair, my physical features, and especially hated that I was descended from slaves. I struggled from elementary all the way through high school. It wasn’t until I took an African American studies course taught by a proud black woman as a freshman in college (something I never saw in school) when I finally started to shed that toxic negativity. It took years of learning about black history in college and learning to self love to undo years of pain and self-hatred.

Thank God society is taking representation more seriously nowadays and doing a better job of trying to be more inclusive. I never had a Princess Tiana at Disneyland as a child. She will most likely be the only black princess Disney creates, so I hope they continue to place her in the parks in as many mediums as possible to and hopefully spare some little black girls of the self-loathing I experienced. I love seeing the faces of young black children light up when they see her in the parks. That was something I desperately needed as a kid. Minority children NEED to see representations of themselves outside of their homes, including at theme parks such as Disneyland. I wrote a short paper on this topic for a writing competition by Disney years ago and was rewarded for it. I’m happy to know they are making changes.

What’s telling is @Dr. Hans Reinhardt and I are the only black regulars here (I believe) and very few of you, you included TP, have made an attempt to ask us questions to gain our perspective on this topic which concerns black representation (the ones screaming WHO CARES and AFRICANS USED SPEARS IN THE JUNGLE). And that’s because you guys and gals don’t care. You don’t care to be educated on this topic, you don’t care to understand how we as black people might mentally and emotionally respond to things like this. You simply don’t care because you enjoy it and want to continue to be able to enjoy the ride without having to be forced into questioning the ride, all while mocking efforts for inclusivity and healthy representation. Let’s keep it real.

Continue enjoying Lincoln.

The only post in this thread so far that means anything, relatively.

 

[mf1972]

first look concept art of the new update. bernie sanders animatronic wearing mittens installed on every boat

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I assume the lumbering old robots and static fake animals will remain after they "Plus" it?

 

[Th3 DUd3]

In addition to the changes, let's hope they get new jokes and dialog and jokes too.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

And that’s because you guys and gals don’t care. You don’t care to be educated on this topic, you don’t care to understand how we as black people might mentally and emotionally respond to things like this. You simply don’t care because you enjoy it and want to continue to be able to enjoy the ride without having to be forced into questioning the ride, all while mocking efforts for inclusivity and healthy representation. Let’s keep it real.

I'm sorry you feel that the people here don't care, Raven24. I find the WDWMagic boards filled with some of the most caring and considerate people on the internet. We DO care- that's why this conversation is ongoing.

 

[Model3 McQueen]

You know what needs more representation? Us Persians. I am offended that the only mainstream representation we got is when our butts were getting kicked in 300. I would prefer more Persians and Farci speaking Middle Easterns be painted in a bright light on the big screen!.. Just kidding, I really don't care. Just like I don't care about offensive animatronic figures and stories that haven't hurt a soul in over 50 years.

Everyday there are new rules being made as to what is okay, and what is not. We're going to continue to lose great things because of it. I suspect Tiki Room and Main Street will be next at some point. SMH.

As for the topic at hand.. it sounds like a decent concept, but we all know a decent concept doesn't equal decent execution. Especially when it's being made solely for "woke" purposes.

 

[WillWrambles]

I'm sorry you feel that the people here don't care, Raven24. I find the WDWMagic boards filled with some of the most caring and considerate people on the internet. We DO care- that's why this conversation is ongoing.

While that may be true, there are just as many people who refuse to listen, who laugh off any arguements on how they could possibly be wrong, how “modern culture is too sensitive”. This board sure as hell ain’t perfect. But we can improve. And we can start by taking Raven24’s words seriously.

 

[el_super]

Legit question- within the context of the ride, which to recap is a jungle water boat tour in africa set in late 1920s to early 1930s give or take, how is showing a tribe of native africans deep in the jungle dressed and using items appropriate to the time period the ride is set in bad representation of black people? (JEPOARDY THEME SONG PLAYS)

It is perpetuating a stereotype that blacks are violent, savage, uneducated and dangerous. Some people are smart enough to see through stereotypes and not let them interfere with how they interact with another person. Some people are not. That's the concern here that's driving this, that some subset of people, no matter how small they may be, could use this scene, as further justification of racially profiling people. That Disney could be, in some small way, supporting a concept and telling a narrative that they don't themselves believe in, or feel comfortable with.

Is it historically accurate? Maybe. The Jungle Cruise though, isn't meant to be historically accurate, and the idea of making it so, would be challenging. Could Disney tell the story of African natives in a fair and accurate way that is not just a sound bite on a boat ride? Yes they could, but it would fundamentally alter the ride. Would the Jungle Cruise be as entertaining as a history lesson on the dangers of colonialism? Maybe the evilness of poaching? Do people really want the Jungle Cruise to promote a socially conscience message?

Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one: just remove it, and make the Jungle Cruise and entertaining boat ride without racism. Or at least with a little less racism.

 

[DanielBB8]

Adventureland has African drums in atmospheric music. By eliminating African depictions, the music makes less sense. The indigenous people can't be playing them. They are too politically incorrect. The discussion about darts brings up Indiana Jones Adventure where poison darts is in one scene in the end of the ride. Will that have to go too? Should they remove the African masks decor in the Jungle Cruise queue line?

Overall, the Jungle Cruise makeover is almost the wholesale destruction of the attraction. They can't and won't stop. It continues.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Adventureland has African drums in atmospheric music. By eliminating African depictions, the music makes less sense. The indigenous people can't be playing them. They are too politically incorrect. The discussion about darts brings up Indiana Jones Adventure where poison darts is in one scene in the end of the ride. Will that have to go too? Should they remove the African masks decor?

You are not getting it.

 

[Californian Elitist]

No one purchased a trench coat when Blade and Blade 2 came out? Where were they when Spawn came out? Black Panther was not the first big screen mainstream super hero despite what you read online.

Where did I say that Black Panther was the first big mainstream superhero?

Notice you gave me just two other examples...from the 90s. This is my point.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Legit question- within the context of the ride, which to recap is a jungle water boat tour in africa set in late 1920s to early 1930s give or take, how is showing a tribe of native africans deep in the jungle dressed and using items appropriate to the time period the ride is set in bad representation of black people? (JEPOARDY THEME SONG PLAYS)
I am hispanic. We dont have a hispanic super hero. We are not in a lot of rides. And the one major ride we are in one of us is being dunked in a town well by Pirates looking for Johnny Depp and I dont know one hispanic disgusted by that scene becausw its not inclusive or does not represent hispanic people. It is a ride. You cant throw out the 'its a theme park argument' because we are talking about a theme park made in the late 1950s. You can't view a ride made in the 50s through modern eyes. Your problem is you are upset about the type of black people used in the ride when it is historically accurate to the theme of the ride and appropriate. What did you want them to do? Not have any africans in a ride set in africa in the jungle? How would you want them used? The way they are used is appropriate for the context of the ride. Its our Splash Mountain argument all over again when you said people got off the ride offended they were not represented felt exluded on a ride with singing animals. No one ever got off the ride thinking that just like no one has ever gotten off The Jungle Cruise without a smile because they understood it is a theme park ride.

You are again completely missing the overall point and message. But what you are doing is proving my other point, which is you don’t care enough to ask questions without the intention of coming back with a rebuttal to discredit my views on this topic surrounding my people.

 

[Disney Analyst]

That’s you though. You’re welcome to not feel anything when you float by white animatronics, not feel inspired, and move on. But this isn’t about how this effects white people. I as a black woman experience color, race, and representation in an entirely different way. The lack of healthy and diverse representation of the black community has been a cycle that continued for centuries, especially here in America, and has just now started to shift a bit. There’s a reason why black people went nuts and spent money on brand new outfits just to see Black Panther at the theater. Finally we were seeing ourselves on the big screen not as slaves and savages/“thugs,” but as a powerful and intelligent group of black people.

It’s not “just a fun ride at an amusement park” for us minorities who rarely see ourselves in progressive and healthy/different in entertainment. You have the privilege (yes, privilege) of not having to worry about NOT seeing your race represented in diverse and plentiful ways. Growing up as a black child in the early 90s with no proper representation anywhere I looked, including Disneyland, as well as attending school with mostly white children obliterated my self esteem. I HATED being black and wished I was white. I hated my kinky hair, my physical features, and especially hated that I was descended from slaves. I struggled from elementary all the way through high school. It wasn’t until I took an African American studies course taught by a proud black woman as a freshman in college (something I never saw in school) when I finally started to shed that toxic negativity. It took years of learning about black history in college and learning to self love to undo years of pain and self-hatred.

Thank God society is taking representation more seriously nowadays and doing a better job of trying to be more inclusive. I never had a Princess Tiana at Disneyland as a child. She will most likely be the only black princess Disney creates, so I hope they continue to place her in the parks in as many mediums as possible to and hopefully spare some little black girls of the self-loathing I experienced. I love seeing the faces of young black children light up when they see her in the parks. That was something I desperately needed as a kid. Minority children NEED to see representations of themselves outside of their homes, including at theme parks such as Disneyland. I wrote a short paper on this topic for a writing competition by Disney years ago and was rewarded for it. I’m happy to know they are making changes.

What’s telling is @Dr. Hans Reinhardt and I are the only black regulars here (I believe) and very few of you, you included TP, have made an attempt to ask us questions to gain our perspective on this topic which concerns black representation (the ones screaming WHO CARES and AFRICANS USED SPEARS IN THE JUNGLE). And that’s because you guys and gals don’t care. You don’t care to be educated on this topic, you don’t care to understand how we as black people might mentally and emotionally respond to things like this. You simply don’t care because you enjoy it and want to continue to be able to enjoy the ride without having to be forced into questioning the ride, all while mocking efforts for inclusivity and healthy representation. Let’s keep it real.

Continue enjoying Lincoln.

I just gave you a standing ovation from my apartment.

Thank you for sharing that with us all. Thank you for putting that energy into a reply. It should not be on you to have to even explain this to all of us on here, but I appreciate you doing so.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Who is being overly-sensitive and offended by every little thing now?

Exactly. Notice the ones saying “it’s just a ride” are the ones that are upset. If it’s just a ride, then you shouldn’t care and give a bunch of energy into these changes.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I just gave you a standing ovation from my apartment.

Thank you for sharing that with us all. Thank you for putting that energy into a reply. It should not be on you to have to even explain this to all of us on here, but I appreciate you doing so.

Thank you! I’m ashamed of and disgusted with my past self, but I now try to turn it into a positive. I’ve given presentations on it and have written about it. I now try to educate others, which for me is the best way to give back to my community. I still cry about it.

A video of a 4 year-old little black girl calling herself ugly went viral last year. She reminded me so much if my younger self, as I can recall not only calling myself ugly, but all black people ugly. I had some serious issues. I would like to prevent situations like mine and the little girl’s in the video below as often as possible. It starts with obtaining knowledge and more representation.

 

[Disney Analyst]

Let me put in some work here, to add on what @raven24 is saying.

And context matters, I’m a white dude just trying to hopefully help other people like me understand these things a bit more.

They are called microaggressions. Small pieces of a puzzle that add up to a much bigger picture. In this case it may seem to many here like just some scenes on a cheesy theme park ride, what’s the big deal?

But this type of thing is just one of hundreds, thousands of microaggressions BIPOC people face throughout their life. So what seems like nothing to us, just adds to bigger feelings of oppression, not being equal, and not feeling safe. We do not share the same experience, the same perspective, we will never be able to notice or feel all the microaggressions faced by those living it everyday, and that’s why we need to listen to them when they say we can do better.

By us recognizing and correcting these microaggressions, we are helping to ease this heavy load off so many people, who feel weighed down by what they experience everyday.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

This thread has gone off the rails. The mods are going to have a field day with it.

There is a new thread specifically regarding the politics of changes like these - in the Politics subforum, where it belongs.

The first post shares Raven’s recent post from this thread, which deserves to be the starting point of the discussion, IMHO, rather than snarky comments.

Jungle Cruise (and other) politics

The following is a post by @raven24 that very much impressed me. Very few things very much impress me. It’s from a sidetracked discussion about changes to the Jungle Cruise attraction in both parks - why they are happening, how they were announced, etc. Heaven forbid this post went *poof* when...

forums.wdwmagic.com

Let’s leave this thread, respectfully, to the original intent of the OP.

 

[DavidDL]

That’s you though. You’re welcome to not feel anything when you float by white animatronics, not feel inspired, and move on. But this isn’t about how this effects white people. I as a black woman experience color, race, and representation in an entirely different way. The lack of healthy and diverse representation of the black community has been a cycle that continued for centuries, especially here in America, and has just now started to shift a bit. There’s a reason why black people went nuts and spent money on brand new outfits just to see Black Panther at the theater. Finally we were seeing ourselves on the big screen not as slaves and savages/“thugs,” but as a powerful and intelligent group of black people.

It’s not “just a fun ride at an amusement park” for us minorities who rarely see ourselves in progressive and healthy/different in entertainment. You have the privilege (yes, privilege) of not having to worry about NOT seeing your race represented in diverse and plentiful ways. Growing up as a black child in the early 90s with no proper representation anywhere I looked, including Disneyland, as well as attending school with mostly white children obliterated my self esteem. I HATED being black and wished I was white. I hated my kinky hair, my physical features, and especially hated that I was descended from slaves. I struggled from elementary all the way through high school. It wasn’t until I took an African American studies course taught by a proud black woman as a freshman in college (something I never saw in school) when I finally started to shed that toxic negativity. It took years of learning about black history in college and learning to self love to undo years of pain and self-hatred.

Thank God society is taking representation more seriously nowadays and doing a better job of trying to be more inclusive. I never had a Princess Tiana at Disneyland as a child. She will most likely be the only black princess Disney creates, so I hope they continue to place her in the parks in as many mediums as possible to and hopefully spare some little black girls of the self-loathing I experienced. I love seeing the faces of young black children light up when they see her in the parks. That was something I desperately needed as a kid. Minority children NEED to see representations of themselves outside of their homes, including at theme parks such as Disneyland. I wrote a short paper on this topic for a writing competition by Disney years ago and was rewarded for it. I’m happy to know they are making changes.

What’s telling is @Dr. Hans Reinhardt and I are the only black regulars here (I believe) and very few of you, you included TP, have made an attempt to ask us questions to gain our perspective on this topic which concerns black representation (the ones screaming WHO CARES and AFRICANS USED SPEARS IN THE JUNGLE). And that’s because you guys and gals don’t care. You don’t care to be educated on this topic, you don’t care to understand how we as black people might mentally and emotionally respond to things like this. You simply don’t care because you enjoy it and want to continue to be able to enjoy the ride without having to be forced into questioning the ride, all while mocking efforts for inclusivity and healthy representation. Let’s keep it real.

Continue enjoying Lincoln.

Thank you for this post. Many folks seem to have a "they're coming for everything we have" sort of mindset when changes like this occur to attractions. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Rather, "they" are just asking for fair and equal representation.

As a white man, things can get a little tricky when I talk about stuff like this because on one hand, I need to try and understand where people of color are coming from and on the other, it is impossible for me to do so. But that's okay. Myself (-and others) need only do one thing when situations like this arise: listen. Listen to the folks who speak up about long standing, harmful representation in attractions like this and use our white privilege (yes, it is a thing) to do to something about. The privilege myself and others were born with need not be a negative thing. Recognize that we have it and use it to do something good in this world by speaking up or taking action with it until we reach a point where we're all on as equal footing as possible.

This is not some kind of one off, "SJW" or "woke" attack like some might claim. Those folks tend to cry out things like, "But when will it end?" or "Will we just give in to any demand that any "offended" person makes after coming off an attraction?". I answer; it will end when the long standing complaints about the systemic problems presented in the attraction do. -and also, no, Disney and others won't just "give in" to any rando who wants something changed in an attraction because they don't like it. During my time working Haunted Mansion Holiday, I had some religious folks bug me at the entrance about feeling offended that the magic of Christmas would be combined with such "evil Pagan rituals". Those complaints have basically fallen on deaf ears because they don't have a clear and present majority behind them. Which by extension means, maybe the issue isn't as a big a deal as they were trying to make it out to be. Those folks are obviously welcome to feel the way they do and aren't "wrong" to feel said way, but maybe they need to take a step back and realize that since enough of those complaints aren't happening, maybe there isn't as big of a "problem" as they think there might be.

But the complaints about depictions in attractions like Jungle Cruise and Splash have obviously been assessed differently by Disney after weighing what is in front of them. Just because some of the folks around here haven't heard the larger, sizeable amount of complaints personally doesn't mean they aren't there or that Disney hasn't. After the changes to Splash were announced, I messaged some folks of color I'd never spoken to before on other Disney fan sites to get their thoughts and they all told me that the depictions and voices used for some of the characters made them uncomfortable when riding. I've never experienced something like that and never thought anything of it when riding or working at Splash and while yes, it can be uncomfortable to have your sense of reality shattered and sad to see something you love go, I would rather know that my fellow man standing next to me in line is about to have a good as time as I am.

Attractions can be made inclusive and still be made well. I am by no means advocating or supporting Disney make a "lesser" product. Changes to the Jungle Cruise can be executed amazingly well AND be inclusive/less harmful to people of color. Honestly, if Disney didn't have a track record of things like Pixar Pier and Mission: Breakout!, I feel like far less people would be worried about the statement, "changes coming to *insert attraction here*". There would still be some folks complaining about "wokeness" or "SJW agendas" because they don't want to see any kind of change at all but there's nothing you can do about that except try to be the proverbial lighthouse to their ship about to run aground. The decision to crash is on them.

To any folks willing to throw things like, "Well, white people are portrayed as villians/thugs/goons in media and attractions, too!" around as a rebuttal, the key word there is "too". The bigger issue I believe people of color have is that they don't have enough positive portrayal to balance out the obvious bad that all races can and will be subjected to. I ask sincerely, do you honestly think a handful of portrayals similar to the natives in Jungle Cruise would be as much of an issue to people of color visiting if they had more positive portrayals of themselves elsewhere in the park? The bigger issue is that it's frankly one of the only forms of portrayal they have. -and that's not right.

No one is coming to take away what us whites have. There's always going to be movies made with characters like Anna and Elsa. We're good on that front and that's not a "problem". What we need is more representation with characters like Black Panther, Raya, Moana, Tiana, etc. to compliment the former. Imagineers of old were brilliant but the only time they really considered a sentiment like that was with "it's a small world". I think it's a good thing that things are changing direction. I do however, just want the changes to be done with quality. All Guests deserve a quality overhaul to Splash and Jungle Cruise for the price point we pay to get in.

But those are just my ramblings. I'd love to listen to and hear what those who are actually more affected by the systemic issues in park have to say.