Journey of Water featuring Moana coming to Epcot

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
Fixing the issue is not sequestering the greenery to a closed-loop walkthrough, while leaving the rest of the park concrete-heavy or even worse.

View attachment 684589

Does Central Park make the rest of Manhattan less of a concrete jungle? In all fairness there’s a couple areas they’re adding trees and plants to here. But I can promise you this new EPCOT will still have that issue.
Yes, Central Park does make Manhattan less of a concrete jungle - because you can enter Central Park, and take your mind out of the city. As for this image of Guardians - those trees will grow.
 

Vinnie Mac

Well-Known Member
Does Central Park make the rest of Manhattan less of a concrete jungle?
No but it provides an escape from the concrete jungle which is why it is as popular as it is. MJOW is an escape from the lack of greenery (which there will be more overall anyway) in Epcot.

If you are against the IP-ification of Epcot, that's 100% fine and completely fair. Don't play stupid though.
 

No Name

Well-Known Member
No but it provides an escape from the concrete jungle which is why it is as popular as it is. MJOW is an escape from the lack of greenery (which there will be more overall anyway) in Epcot.

If you are against the IP-ification of Epcot, that's 100% fine and completely fair. Don't play stupid though.
That’s quite a conclusion, to think I’m against IP in Epcot when we’ve solely talked about greenery. Someone’s not just playing stupid…
 

Vinnie Mac

Well-Known Member
That’s quite a conclusion, to think I’m against IP in Epcot when we’ve solely talked about greenery. Someone’s not just playing stupid…
Most of the charge against this project has been because it's IP-centric. Clearly what I am alluding to unless you're intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
OK, there was one huge concrete plaza in the center of communicore after they removed some trees and water features... then they tried to fix it with the canopy structure, but EPCOT never felt like a concrete jungle... Just a big plaza at the entrance to handle the crowds...I don't know why everyone keeps saying EPCOT was a concrete jungle. It also clearly directed the flow of throngs of people straight through the entrance plaza and a clear sightline to the lake... which for first time visitors is a great way to get oriented... now it appears you will be in a park-like area with meandering paths and no clear sightline...
 

SilentWindODoom

Well-Known Member
The fact that something might theoretically bring someone somewhere joy does not and should not exempt it from criticism. It would not have been in any way, shape, or form odd or uncouth for you to voice your preference for Ellen’s or to attempt to support that preference with evidence of the attractions strengths. There’s no reason your joy is any less valuable then the hypothetical joy of some other poster.

Now, if discussion devolves into personal insults, that’s another matter, but I haven’t really seen that here, although I’m willing to be corrected.

I didn't read it as no criticism at all is allowed, but if that's what he was suggesting then of course I disagree.

I thought it was more about people going out of their way to trash something and attack the people who like it. That said, I also agree that I haven't seen much of that here.

When I first saw the pic of Te Fiti posted, I didn't realize it was a shot from below. I thought it was a photoshop someone made of Te Fiti being bigger than Spaceship Earth to make a joke about IP outsizing the EPCOT brand.

No. Good faith criticism is fine. But there's been a number of people who've sheepishly come in and said "I know everyone hates this, but I kinda think it's neat." and I think that says a lot about the tone. And yes, there have been direct personal attacks that have been thankfully deleted.

But yeah, I feel there's been a lot of unwarranted trashing due to misplaced anger leading to lashing out.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
OK, there was one huge concrete plaza in the center of communicore after they removed some trees and water features... then they tried to fix it with the canopy structure, but EPCOT never felt like a concrete jungle... Just a big plaza at the entrance to handle the crowds...I don't know why everyone keeps saying EPCOT was a concrete jungle. It also clearly directed the flow of throngs of people straight through the entrance plaza and a clear sightline to the lake... which for first time visitors is a great way to get oriented... now it appears you will be in a park-like area with meandering paths and no clear sightline...

Because it fits their narrative that Epcot is somehow being improved by destroying the symmetry that the park was built on plus adding in movie IP that doesn't fit.
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
Because it fits their narrative that Epcot is somehow being improved by destroying the symmetry that the park was built on plus adding in movie IP that doesn't fit.
you mean their opinion? I think epcot is gonna be a lot better with the new core/plaza/JoW. Not a narrative, just my opinion. The new core is full of trees and I like it. some dont, some do.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
you mean their opinion? I think epcot is gonna be a lot better with the new core/plaza/JoW. Not a narrative, just my opinion.
The plaza isn't an improvement, they reverted the fountain sculpture and added lights and mounted LED pucks on SSE. Does nothing of substance. The central plaza isn't suddenly going to be some strreamlined exit for throngs of people like many think, destroyed the symmetry of the area, removed the Fountain of Nations... Still waiting to read one thing that will be an actual improvement.
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
The plaza isn't an improvement, they reverted the fountain sculpture and added lights and mounted LED pucks on SSE. Does nothing of substance. The central plaza isn't suddenly going to be some strreamlined exit for throngs of people like many think, destroyed the symmetry of the area, removed the Fountain of Nations... Still waiting to read one thing that will be an actual improvement.

thats cool you feel that way. I disagree.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
you mean their opinion? I think epcot is gonna be a lot better with the new core/plaza/JoW. Not a narrative, just my opinion. The new core is full of trees and I like it. some dont, some do.
At least they’re going back to 1993 with the trees. The new prism sculpture is nice (shame about the central planter tree blocking the original quintessential view though)

When I can think of another improvement I’ll come back.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
The plaza isn't an improvement, they reverted the fountain sculpture and added lights and mounted LED pucks on SSE. Does nothing of substance. The central plaza isn't suddenly going to be some streamlined exit for throngs of people like many think, destroyed the symmetry of the area, removed the Fountain of Nations... Still waiting to read one thing that will be an actual improvement.
I mean, the gardens are better than the pin trading station, the restored entrance is vastly superior to the leave-a-legacy graveyard, Ratatouille is a pure value-add, and Connections and Creations, regardless of what you think of them, provide a much-needed refresh of the park's central dining and retail spaces. I'm also a fan of the new lighting everywhere, and while this may just be a result of inhaling Zach Riddley spores, I do really like the pavement and signage improvements that are ongoing throughout the park.

With the death of the elevated saucer and the impending implosion of the barges, I actually only have three problems with the changes, though they are admittedly major problems that will likely either take ages to be resolved or never will be. The first is simply that they need to be held to a higher standard with regard to sightlines. Thankfully, the barges are going, but they represent a huge waste of money that could have been distributed elsewhere and should have never been approved for permanent installation in the first place. Likewise, the Cosmic Rewind box and Ratatouille's backstage views are awful and need to be resolved. My second problem is the framing of the Wonders of Xandar; if IP must intrude, Xandar should be the sponsor, and the pavilion should be framed from the perspective of edutainment first, sponsor second. My third problem is the placement of Journey of Water. I don't actually think it's as poor a fit as people make it out to be, but it should not be situated within the monorail ring and should not have replaced indoor space that could have been repurposed more effectively.
 

Epcot82Guy

Well-Known Member
You raise valid points. While some (myself included) would have not enjoyed the central redo, I think the aspects you mention are the key areas. The two I would add are:
1. Attempting to make FEA and Rat tie to the country's culture more in story (along with Nemo while we're at it).
2. Done something along CC Northwest so the circle was still complete.

In short, it really is about spatial planning and storytelling (i.e. fit) right now. Those are not generally budgetary issues... They are about vision and knowing your source material (or at least caring about it).
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I mean, the gardens are better than the pin trading station, the restored entrance is vastly superior to the leave-a-legacy graveyard, Ratatouille is a pure value-add, and Connections and Creations, regardless of what you think of them, provide a much-needed refresh of the park's central dining and retail spaces. I'm also a fan of the new lighting everywhere, and while this may just be a result of inhaling Zach Riddley spores, I do really like the pavement and signage improvements that are ongoing throughout the park.

I thought he meant it wasn't an improvement on the original plaza as opposed to the 1990s era plaza -- I'd agree with that, because the Fountain of Nations is a huge loss without a replacement (obviously that existed in the 1990s era too, but without everything else that made the original plaza better).
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
I thought he meant it wasn't an improvement on the original plaza as opposed to the 1990s era plaza -- I'd agree with that, because the Fountain of Nations is a huge loss without a replacement (obviously that existed in the 1990s era too, but without everything else that made the original plaza better).
I never really cared too much about the Fountain of Nations specifically, but a new water feature of some kind within the plaza itself would certainly be welcome, especially since there are a few elements of the proposed gardens that could have easily been fountains instead of planters.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
Because it fits their narrative that Epcot is somehow being improved by destroying the symmetry that the park was built on plus adding in movie IP that doesn't fit.
You talk like there’s some conspiracy or something. Nobody has a “narrative,” some people just don’t care as much about symmetry as others might.

And I’m one who has always thought Epcot did a poor job of incorporating nature. Some of it was due to the late-1970s view of the future, some was practical, and some of it is just how things are done in Central Florida, but it felt like a lot of “concrete with landscaping” to me.

I’m hopeful that this construction will at least do a bit more to incorporate nature and possibly provide more shade for guests, but I’m not a fan of IP-driven attractions in Epcot.

That’s my “narrative.”
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
You talk like there’s some conspiracy or something. Nobody has a “narrative,” some people just don’t care as much about symmetry as others might.

And I’m one who has always thought Epcot did a poor job of incorporating nature. Some of it was due to the late-1970s view of the future, some was practical, and some of it is just how things are done in Central Florida, but it felt like a lot of “concrete with landscaping” to me.

I’m hopeful that this construction will at least do a bit more to incorporate nature and possibly provide more shade for guests, but I’m not a fan of IP-driven attractions in Epcot.

That’s my “narrative.”
The conspiracy or narrative, or whatever we want to call it is to that Disney to cram in IP into the theme parks wherever they can, if it fits or not.
 

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