Journey of Water featuring Moana coming to Epcot

[UNCgolf]

Yeah, I think that’s the theory they’re operating under for now. I completely understand the desire to give people recognizable IP and the opportunity to build things that can capitalize on the “knowns” of existing stories.

This is why, whenever Disney does something original—even if it’s a miss—I try to be supportive.

IP also gives attractions a floor that doesn't exist for original attractions. I think Frozen Ever After is very poorly designed, but it's Frozen -- people will ride it because they love Frozen and want to see the Frozen characters/hear the music. An attraction with similarly poor design that doesn't feature a popular IP would likely get little to no wait and be seen as a failure (I guess we can just point at Maelstrom to illustrate this -- I think the design there was better than FEA, but it was certainly not a masterpiece).

On the other hand, I think IP also puts a ceiling on attractions that's hard to break through, because the IP itself generally constrains creativity. There's only so much you can do to make it fit the existing IP (with a few exceptions). There's far more freedom when designing something original, which is likely why (at least in my opinion) the vast majority of Disney's greatest attractions were original designs.

That said, it's understandable why Disney prefers the IP route because of that built in floor. They can build something mediocre that still draws a crowd due to the IP itself (I'm not suggesting all the IP attractions are mediocre, just that ones that are mediocre can be propped up by the IP and still successfully attract guests), even if they aren't building many groundbreaking and/or truly great attractions overall.

 

[Incomudro]

The warmth of the old Epcot.

 

[MisterPenguin]

My hot take:

Neither

the sterile office park symmetry of the past;​

nor the current clumsy clumping of "Worlds"​

is pleasing to me.

I'm just glad that the deterioration of the original design into a concrete expanse is no more.

 

[HauntedPirate]

That's not really nature.
It's water with some grass, and the camera angles really make the green look like more than it was.

If you’re looking for pastures and forests, EPCOT Center wasn’t it.

Grass. Water. Trees galore. All carefully integrated into the area. Being dismissive of what was there is simply ignorant. Continue your bliss.

 

[J4546]

Id think that Moana concept art for Animal Kingdom could be applied into the expansion plot between land and seas pavilion and with a massive volcano rope course like shanghais camp discovery, a log flume/river rapids integrated into the volcano/surrounding land and a small spinner like the concept art shows....that would be chill. I already wanted a massive mountain like camp discovery and with river rapids in it, just change it to a tropical volcano and tie it into Jow and create a massive area about land and sea working together.

 

[SplashJacket]

That's not really nature.
It's water with some grass, and the camera angles really make the green look like more than it was.

That’s not really my issue with it. The greenery and water, while clearly better then the concrete that proceeded it, wasn’t visually distinct from the water or greenery near Imagination, Odyssey, or even a suburban office park with a fountain in a small lake thing.

As mentioned earlier, the biggest loss with the current redesign is the wasted potential with everything between the walls, not between the buildings.

 

[marni1971]

The original spine plot plan, with the tiny bits of landscaping (green) and the acres and acres of concrete walkways (black)

 

[Incomudro]

If you’re looking for pastures and forests, EPCOT Center wasn’t it.
View attachment 684892

Grass. Water. Trees galore. All carefully integrated into the area. Being dismissive of what was there is simply ignorant. Continue your bliss.

You realize that this was more than 30 years ago, don't you?
That went away, and became barren expanses of sterile concrete.

 

[Disstevefan1]

If you’re looking for pastures and forests, EPCOT Center wasn’t it.
View attachment 684892

Grass. Water. Trees galore. All carefully integrated into the area. Being dismissive of what was there is simply ignorant. Continue your bliss.

This is a great pic! Wow look at the parking lot. The place is MOBBED. I guess some things never change

 

[Disstevefan1]

View attachment 684876
The warmth of the old Epcot.

JAMMitors circa 1982

 

[lazyboy97o]

These are true statements!

My point was that the image of the future that Epcot was designed around did not do much to show a future that is integrated with nature. A new design can do that—even if the “nature” is built using man-made materials mimicking natural ones.

Animal Kingdom’s Tree of Life is made of man-made materials used to mimic natural materials. Even still, it seems pretty effective at creating an environment that shows human places that incorporate nature.

I agree, denser foliage is no more natural than sparse.

EPCOT still isn’t going to show a future that is integrated with nature. Why bring up a points that are not being addressed?

 

[Disstevefan1]

Just stopping by, I have been busy getting killed over in the ""runDisney pares back complimentary full-day ticket to half-day for volunteers" thread. In my opinion, Disney was wrong to pare back the ticket to volunteers.

As for this thread, I do not agree with Moana being added, but I REALLY hate these walls being up for so many years. I wish they would just finish whatever they are trying to do and get the walls down. If the walls ever come down, I will happily walk through Moana just to set foot on a place in EPCOT that has been walled off for way too long.

 

[CalebS]

Just stopping by, I have been busy getting killed over in the ""runDisney pares back complimentary full-day ticket to half-day for volunteers" thread. In my opinion, Disney was wrong to pare back the ticket to volunteers.

As for this thread, I do not agree with Moana being added, but I REALLY hate these walls being up for so many years. I wish they would just finish whatever they are trying to do and get the walls down. If the walls ever come down, I will happily walk through Moana just to set foot on a place in EPCOT that has been walled off for way too long.

The walls being up this long truly is unacceptable

 

[_caleb]

The original spine plot plan, with the tiny bits of landscaping (green) and the acres and acres of concrete walkways (black)

View attachment 684933

Denser foliage doesn’t make it more natural.

Epcot certainly had a lot of greenery in those early days.

Maybe it felt to me as though Epcot’s nature was not integrated was because the lawns were all manicured, or because many of the trees (deliberately kept small to make the buildings seem larger, I’ve read) were in planters, or because few natural materials were used (or, at least imitated)?

It always came across as a message of “our preferred future will be marked by the domination of nature” rather than depicting a future where the built environment was in balance/integrated into the natural environment. (See also: the Land pavilion).

This is not a criticism, I’m just interested in the philosophy and view of the future that inspired Epcot.

P.S.- I love what Epcot was, and I don’t care for the current direction, not a fan of IP in this park, and I don’t think Moana will magically fix anything. I just like the idea we might see more “nature” (if artificial) in the park.

 

[marni1971]

Epcot certainly had a lot of greenery in those early days.

Maybe it felt to me as though Epcot’s nature was not integrated was because the lawns were all manicured, or because many of the trees (deliberately kept small to make the buildings seem larger, I’ve read) were in planters, or because few natural materials were used (or, at least imitated)?

It always came across as a message of “our preferred future will be marked by the domination of nature” rather than depicting a future where the built environment was in balance/integrated into the natural environment. (See also: the Land pavilion).

This is not a criticism, I’m just interested in the philosophy and view of the future that inspired Epcot.

P.S.- I love what Epcot was, and I don’t care for the current direction, not a fan of IP in this park, and I don’t think Moana will magically fix anything. I just like the idea we might see more “nature” (if artificial) in the park.

“Early days” were its first 22 years remember. Over half its life.

I wouldn’t call the trees small. More kept the correct size (example; today they hide the planned vista of The Land) and certainly in East the trees were free reigning and not just in planters (though the berms were suitably populated on both sides). All Disney parks maintain - in theory - a planned tree size and remove those that grow too big to substitute for a you her version. Back in the late 70s technology would overcome every problem remember - including taming nature. Also remember the design philosophy and differences with the structured, straight layout of east vs the meandering curved (and wet) west signifying a difference between planned / technical and natural / organic (also reflected in the respective pavilion designs)

 

[_caleb]

“Early days” were its first 22 years remember. Over half its life.

I wouldn’t call the trees small. More kept the correct size (example; today they hide the planned vista of The Land) and certainly in East the trees were free reigning and not just in planters (though the berms were suitably populated on both sides). All Disney parks maintain - in theory - a planned tree size and remove those that grow too big to substitute for a you her version. Back in the late 70s technology would overcome every problem remember - including taming nature. Also remember the design philosophy and differences with the structured, straight layout of east vs the meandering curved (and wet) west signifying a difference between planned / technical and natural / organic (also reflected in the respective pavilion designs)

Great points. Thanks for the reminder of some of the original intention. When the conversation goes in this direction, it makes me miss Epcot (what it was and could have been) even more.

Honestly, I think it was this underlying philosophy- technology can overcome every problem and nature can/should be tamed) that (maybe subconsciously) made it increasingly difficult for guests to really “get” the park as time went on.

 

[marni1971]

Honestly, I think it was this underlying philosophy- technically can overcome every problem and nature can/should be tamed) that (maybe subconsciously) made it increasingly difficult for guests to really “get” the park as time went on.

I don’t think it was not getting, more not caring. Average guest doesn’t care where he rides the new shiny box coaster or sees ice princesses or a cartoon rockery and splash pad - so long as they do. Then after 5 minutes they move onto the next thing. Todays society doesn’t seem to allow time for decisions or thinking.

 

[_caleb]

I don’t think it was not getting, more not caring. Average guest doesn’t care where he rides the new shiny box coaster or sees ice princesses or a cartoon rockery and splash pad - so long as they do. Then after 5 minutes they move onto the next thing. Todays society doesn’t seem to allow time for decisions or thinking.

Yes, I agree. And I find it sad, but I suppose it’s reality.

I do think guests ultimately—maybe subconsciously?—notice the devolution. But short attention spans, a lack of really being present (and, well, thinking), gets us what we’re getting now, I suppose.

 

[Bocabear]

I don’t think it was not getting, more not caring. Average guest doesn’t care where he rides the new shiny box coaster or sees ice princesses or a cartoon rockery and splash pad - so long as they do. Then after 5 minutes they move onto the next thing. Todays society doesn’t seem to allow time for decisions or thinking.

This is absolutely right!
I don't think there was really a time when guests didn't "get" EPCOT... they made assumptions about it, but it was always busy until they started removing/shuttering attractions and not updating within the framework...and even then the park always seemed busy. The Booze tourism of EPCOT was created by TDO with the addition of the festivals... I think until then people assumed the restaurants in World Showcase were unapproachable... So the positive side is that there seems to be more awareness to the food offerings within World Showcase.

 

[DCBaker]

Photos from today -