It's the end of the world!!!

[General Grizz]

The American Adventure. Luckily, I don't think they're going to mess much with this classic. What a show. Yes, the ending does freak me out a little...and I love this line: "Pride is one of our national passions. Even those who overcome it are proud of their humility!" So true. It puts me in a state of contradiction...so much that I ask myself - OH STOP EXISITING! when thinking about human nature - there's some flaw around every curb.

Anyways, here's a quote to follow up on some chit chat on this family friend business I found:

"The important thing is the family. If you can keep the family together...and that's the backbone of our whole business. Catering to families...that's what we hope to do."

Walt Disney

 

[niteobsrvr]

Boy this is getting way out of hand. The simple fact of the matter is that things have to change. Disney cannot exist in a vacuum. It really doesnt matter whether we are talking about a rehab/redo of an older attraction or the design of a totally new one.

For a point of reference, look at the history of amusement parks in general. They are entirely different today than they were early last century. Mostly because the parks who created the bigger thrills survived and the ones who didn't fell by the wayside. People have always sought after thrill for entertianment and probalby always will. Does this mean every ride in a park has to be a thrill ride? Nope and if you look at the major parks in this country you will see that most management companies recognize this to one degree or another and offer a reasonable mix of rides and attractions. This ability to appeal to various segments of the population all at once are what make amusement parks fun for the whole family. Every member of the family group is sure to find a few things they like and don't like. An most importantly, the entire family will surely find an attraction or two that they all like and can share the experience together.

These parks and their managers also have to keep up with changing demographics and attitudes. We are all a product of the throw away society we have been building for years now. Attention spans are shorter. The need for visual and audible excitement has increased many fold since the invention of the TV. This is true not only of the younger folks but the older folks too. Its the wealthy baby boomers who are in their 50's approaching 60 that are installing the state of the art home theatres with projector tv's and 5 or more channel surround sound. Its one of the fastest growing sectors in entertainment industry. I can't think of too many 15 year olds with the money to plunk down for one these systems. I wont even go into detail on home automation other than to say this high tech gadetry is also sought after by more of the affore mentioned boomer crowd.

In the day when you can get video on your cell phone or carry a tv in your shirt pocket things inevitably must change. Mostly static animatronics, and cheesy chariots racing on a video screen are not too impressive. Nostalgic, but not impresseive. Epcot was to be a continually changing tribute to technology and the future. I think Walt might be appalled if he saw that we were still looking at video chat as part of the "great big beautiful tomorrow". ( The technology is here and in use, not on the homefront by the masses just yet but here none the less).

Another point people like to bring up is how hungry Disney is for money. Its a corporation. Coporations exist to provide a limited liability vehicle for its owners to make money. Plain and simple. I have to congratulate Disney so far on the fact that they are honest about making their money. They charge a price for everything and let you know about it up front. There is no fine print or legal trickery. Just a product and a price just like the old days. If I don't want the product I dont have to pay for it. This is unlike many corporations today.

Take ATT for example. If I want to use their long distance I have to pay for it. But wait, I can't just pay for what I use. I must pay for 30 mins of their service every month whether I use it or not. IF I dont use it I lose it but still pay for it. If Disney were like that I would run screaming from the state of Florida to never look back.

My point in all of this is that Disney has to continually find ways to appeal to more and or changing customers. If they fail to do this then there will be no Disney sooner rather than later. To this end, I beleive they are well with in their rights to change and or remove whatever they choose. In doing so, they allow the company to evolve over time so that tomorrow we can all go visit Disney again. If they stop doing this and keep everything exactly the way it is, Disney will go away as we get closer to the end of the Golden Years for the baby boomer generation.

 

[Disneynutcase]

First of all, I went on WoM, JII, Horizons, and SSE when I was a teenager and absolutely dug all four rides. And I was and still am just as equally a roller-coaster/good thrill ride fanatic. I think of ToT, Space Mountain, and RnRC as highly as I think of PotC, SSE, and any other "non-thrill" classic. I think there is room for both kinds of attractions at WDW, even at Epcot.

But I also think those of you who generalize teenagers by saying that they find omnimover audio-animatronic rides boring really and truly do not know most teenagers. They happen to be pretty sophisticated. All they really want is to be engaged by the attraction. Do thrills help? You bet. But also seeing something you don't see everyday--like the types of unique rides Disney used to be known for creating--has the same potential to engage these kids.

As I said before, I see a trend going on w/in Disney to eliminate Audio-Anamatronic rides. There are NONE AT DCA, people, and that's scary.

I asked my wife (just to get some back up) what's the last high-tech AA ride she remembers Disney building. First she said Roger Rabbit at DL, then she reneged because its animatronics aren't much (even though it is a cool ride). Then she said Pooh Bear at WDW, and again reneged because its anamatronics again are kind of lower-tech. So we came down to Dinosaur--not really kid friendly, and before that either the GMR, Indiana Jones at DL, or Splash Mountain at MK.

That's pretty pathetic. Audio-anamatronics are something that Walt was very proud of. It was his way of making animation come to life before us. And all we're getting lately are a lot of hits and misses that mostly are nothing more than stuff you can find elsewhere w/o the Disney theming.

I mean wasn't JIYI mainly just a bunch of souped-up effects from most Ripley's Believe it or Not Museums? And how many 3-D flicks have been added to all the parks in the last 15 years?

Mission: Space is probably going to bring people to Epcot in droves, especially if its as good as it's billed. But the reality is a) M:S is nothing more than Flight To The Moon/Mission To Mars with updated state-of-the-art technology. And b) DL's "New Tomorrowland" was supposed to be the greatest thing ever and it sucks wads and is already half closed down. So you can't buy Disney's hype anymore.

Or to put it in another reality (one that Grizzlyhall can relate to): I was recently at Disneyland sitting in the Tiki Room having just had a look at the cheapo make-over they are doing to the old CBJ turning into an MK Pooh clone. And a sadness hit me. Why? Because Tiki Room and Great Moments w/ Mr. Lincoln (Walt's two audio-anamatronic originals) are the only shows of this ilk left in all of DL resort. I was actually missing those silly bears.

Nostalgic? Maybe. But Eisner or somebody is totally turning their back on what makes Disney parks unique. Nobody else on this planet does AA dark attractions like Disney. Yet they refuse to make any new ones at all anymore. And the saddest part is, all the currently existing AA attractions are totally upgradeable and alterable. Both PotC and IaSW at DL always have a few new things in them to catch a been-there/done-that eye. No reason why small changes as well as big sweeping ones can't happen for these kind of rides.

But killing them off in the entirety? Think about it. What is Epcot going to have left that uses AA technology--a few shows, Maelstrom, the middle part of UoE, JIIw/F? Considering that they once had several of the most-cutting edge AA rides on the planet (and the park is only 21+ years old), this stinks!

I thought the logic of Walt buying all that land in Florida was so that he could have plenty of space to put in all kinds of neat and wonderful things. So why tear down a great and still somewhat popular "old" attraction for a new one when you have plenty of space to put in something else?

I then ask myself, why re-do this one? And realize what Epcot is--totally corporate sponsored. All these little dumb-assed deals that Disney makes with other big corporations is what's killing this park. JII got redone because Kodak had a provision in their contract that demanded that they get a new attraction after so many years.

And I'll bet you they are selling the new SSE sponsors on a "we'll give you a new ride" spiel. Again another case of corporate greed and money being king.

 

[AndyMagic]

niteobsrvr, I couldn't have put it better myself. In a world where there is SO much entertainment to be had at the tips of kids fingers, it is getting harder and harder to entertain anyone!! One of the biggest miscoceptions about the new generation that attends theme parks is that they are stupid and won't stand for anything but thrills. The truth is, people go to theme parks to have fun first and foremost and if some education slips in, so be it. What people DON'T want is a history lesson disguised as a dark ride. This doesn't mean they are stupid at all!! Theme Parks are an ESCAPE from reality for most people so it is understandable that hearing about the history of communication isn't exactly what people look forward to when entering Walt Disney World.

 

[prberk]

Andymagic, I think you misunderstand the purpose of EPCOT in the first place. It is not meant to be an average amusement park. Walt Disney World itself had a whole different mission (most of which was changed over time, but still has elements left). When the land was bought, Walt and his company promised the citizens of Florida a new city that had a resort aspect AND a larger area (EPCOT), whose whole purpose would be to "live a life the people can find nowhere else." It was meant to challenge our imagination and to push for scientific and social advancements.

After Walt's death, for good or bad the company build EPCOT as a large world's fair. It brought in elements from the 1964 New York World's Fair (where COP, Small World, and Mr. Lincoln had been first shown), and broadened them in the company's attempt to build Walt's vision the best way that they knew how.

It was supposed to complement and outdo the Magic Kingdom, but in substance not thrills.

To this day, I know many teenagers who "get" EPCOT and are inspired. They know how to have fun, like anywone else, but also appreciate the "discovery" aspect of the place (even if it didn't entirely live up to Walt's utopian dream). These teens tend to be the ones that I have seen grow up and really excel at home. The ones who walk around complaining and acting bored at EPCOT tend to do be spoiled or desensitized in general and do that even back home. They are the ones who lose later in many ways.

I am not trying to bash anyone. And I am not against thrills. But I do think that EPCOT has a different mission. Comparing it to other "amusement" parks should be like "The Road Less Traveled:" it should make ALL the difference!

 

[thedisneyfan]

Originally posted by mickeyfanatics
My comment is very simple and I am sure shared by many on this board.......Build a new ride for EPCOT - Great.......Destroy a Classic attraction to build a new one in its place- BAD. I can see that EPCOT needs some new attractions, but they need to stop demolishing or destroying some of the timeless attractions to do it. They have plenty of land for new attractions.

Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!

:sohappy: :sohappy: :sohappy: :sohappy:

 

[Scar Junior]

I am mixed on this. I feel that it could be updated for the better... new cars/sound maybe even track type (probably same layout). The graphics and set design would most likely be much different. And the beginning would be better.

I also must add that I brought nine other 17 and 18 year-olds with me to Florida last year. Everyone told me they had the same favorite rides. ToT, RnR and SE! Do you believe that!

My ex-girlfriend almost cried on the end and wanted to ride it again. None of them had ever been to WDW (or if they had - it was when they were so little they dont remember it). So that shows new comers enjoy it (even teens!).

I think Disney knows what it's doing on this. I doubt the same group of guys (and girls) who came up with Imagination 2.0 would work on this project. If this is true, its been in the works for a while and won't be done for many years still.

They know how important it is and if this is done, will be done right.

 

[kennyj29]

This whole conversation is getting boring. I mean you mention all the people who want change are new members. Did you ask any of the new members their age? I for one am not a child and I really didn't like that comment. Are you saying new members are radicals and have no respect for tradition and family? THAT kind of thinking scares ME!!! You mention kids are the same as the kids in the 60's? Where do you live? I can't fathom this kind of thinking. It is totally a different generation today. I was born in the 50's and was a kid in the sixties and now my children are grown. You people are stuck in the old world. Come on, Do you honestly think if Walt Disney were alive today he would continue his parks the same way? This is a business, like any other, that has to swing with the way the world is today to succeed. Do you think all kids love the old Disney today. Heck, I'm old and I would get bored looking at everthing the same year after year. I know most of the spiels by heart and let's face it, if you get a cd and listen to it over and over it get's old. You like to listen to it once in awhile but you want something new and different. I love the old Disney, beleive me, I love the way the world was in the 60's but it's not that way today. Let's definitely keep most of Disney the old way but improve it so that it keeps up with the times. If that means getting rid of some attractions, so be it.

 

[Cliff]

SE started it's decline when they removed the "Tomorrows Child" tune at the end. In fact, I think the whole park was better when it was FULL of music. You couldn't walk out of a pavillion without humming a catchy toon that you just heard.

I'd be whistling "If we can dream it than we can do it,...yes we can ,...yes we can.....all the way to France.

Anyhoo. SE could use an overhaul. Nothing that would KILL the original ride concept though. I'd like to see:

Modern animatronics.
New cars that don't "eek", "squeek" and "scrape" their way down the track.
Better sound system. Those tiny car speakers sound worse than AM radios.
Sets/scenes with more drama and action.
Really high tech mind blowing ending.

But keep the theme the same. and for god sake,...don't call it something other than "Spaceship Earth"....jeez.

"Timeracers"? That's a horrible name. "SE" is so much more...."grand". Can you imagine taking a guest to EPCOT and saying:..."And this HUGE ball right here at the front of the park is...Timeracers". I don't think it works.

CT : - )

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Originally posted by jmarc63
Andy you do need to understand one thing here, Grizz is talking about the Disney when Disney cared about the guest and the original philosphy that walt had about having attractions that all family members could enjoy together, Not ok kids you go on that ride and well wait for you or no mom and dad that ride is for old people. you were'nt even born untill the Eisner era began, so you have no idea about the experiences of which we speak of. Grizz is refering to the Disney in the days before Eisner took over cared about what changes the guests wanted and not what changes would bring in the most revenue. shure Disney has to be profitable but It seems that changes are made for the money rather than keeping things fresh for the whole family. I can't answer for time keeper since I havent been there since the attraction opened but I didn't like the fact that they replaced Circlevision 360 for this attraction that is only now opened seasonally. As far as CoP the old guard would have refurbished it in someway to keep it fresh or they would have said that it was not living up to the original ideals and would have closed it and replaced it long ago, and not give it the "draging a dead horse out for parades" like Eisner is doing to it now. Shure Walt did replace old attractions , like the Indian circle and the Mule train at DL but when it came to an attraction in a building he usually either tore it down right away or updated the original But they were usually for "ALL" the family and not one demographic with the most disposible cash. So in conclusion what Grizz and I are saying is that we don't like the way Eisner is changing things at Disney and going against the ideals that were the reason DL and WDW were built. it hase nothing to do with being negative, Just that we have pasion for the way Walt would have done it..

GRIZZ if I spoke out of turn on your comment let me know but this is what I belive you may have meant.

I just wanted to inform you of something...not to "come down on you" just to inform you so you know (because you said that you haven't been since it opened).

Timekeeper wasn't always just a seasonally opened attraction...and the Circlevision 360 technology was not removed when this attraction took over the area. Nine-Eye was a timetraveling robot and you saw through his nine cameras or "eyes"...these 9 eyes were around the circular robot so whatever the robot saw, was projected onto the 9 screens in the CircleVision 360 theater. (So, in essence, it was still a CircleVision 360 film with a VERY cool Audio Animatronic.)

Like I said, I didn't want to seem like I was coming down on you...just wanted to tell you a little about it

 

[WDWFREAK53]

I am 23 and I for one have had the priveledge of going to WDW many times in my lifetime. I love the classics, but I am always going there looking for something new. Even if it's just a parade or a new show...I enjoy seeing things and doing things that I have never done before. I don't necessarily look for the cheap thrill because I TRULY would NOT go to WDW if I wanted thrills...I would go to IoA or any six flags park. I love Pirates of the Carribbean, I love the Haunted Mansion, I love Peter Pan's Flight...and I'm a 23 year old male. This is true Disney Magic. I also like to see things that will give me a thrill also...like Tower of Terror and the Rock N Rollercoaster (but I don't feel that the Rock N Rollercoaster is true Disney Magic). I for one loved the World of Motion...but I also love Test Track and although I do miss WoM, I have learned to move on, I have experienced it and I realize that times change and that Walt Disney stated that WDW will never be completed and it will always be changing and it will always be growing. To tell you the truth, I'm shocked that Spaceship Earth is still in it's original form (for the most part). I love Spaceship Earth and would not want it to go, but it definitely needs something to "brighten it up" or "liven it up" (don't get me wrong, I do NOT want a thrill ride or anything about the current ride to change...but an update to the ride system or audio is definitely needed)

 

[WDWspider]

I read the channel 2 report and actually I think it sounds much better than I was thinking, maybe this will be a good improvement if they do it right. I tend to agree with the something brand new for EPCOT's 25 ann. and what represents EPCOT more than changing the giant golf ball's ride inside. Maybe it isn't so bad Grizz. It does sound like it will happen however.

 

[twistedmickey]

Focus on Wonders of Life or The Living Seas. Leave Spaceship Earth Alone!!!!!!!!! :brick:

 

[wahooskipper]

I think grizzlyhall and a couple of others have it right. Imagine this scenario:

You have been promising your family (with three kids) a trip to the Magic Kingdom for a couple of years. You have seen it on tv and been dreaming about it. You save up your money and finally, off you go.

You get to the park, the kids go racing for the castle, the icon of the Magic Kingdom. When you think Magic Kingdom, you think the Castle. You get to the castle and the sign says you must be over 48" to go inside. Your kids are crushed.

If they put in an "adult" attraction at SE they are effectively doing what I described above. They are taking the most recognizable element of Epcot and making it inaccessible to a chunk of their audience. That, in the words of Disney, would be BAD SHOW!

 

[jrashadb]

*faints*
*wakes up*

...no. NO!
They can't change SE like this, can they? They just can't...
SE is my favorite ride... I love SE.
See, I'm a journalist... a communicator. And, I've always loved Spaceship Earth. I force my friends who go to Epcot with me to go on SE, even if they don't like it... I can't even think straight... they can't change SE from a ride about communication to some stupid thrill ride. I like thrill rides as much as the next guy, but why can't they just build one instead of gutting a current attraction and changing it all around...
In 10 years Epcot is going to be something completely different from what it is right now. That's unfortunate.

 

[Scar Junior]

Originally posted by wahooskipper
I think grizzlyhall and a couple of others have it right. Imagine this scenario:

You have been promising your family (with three kids) a trip to the Magic Kingdom for a couple of years. You have seen it on tv and been dreaming about it. You save up your money and finally, off you go.

You get to the park, the kids go racing for the castle, the icon of the Magic Kingdom. When you think Magic Kingdom, you think the Castle. You get to the castle and the sign says you must be over 48" to go inside. Your kids are crushed.

If they put in an "adult" attraction at SE they are effectively doing what I described above. They are taking the most recognizable element of Epcot and making it inaccessible to a chunk of their audience. That, in the words of Disney, would be BAD SHOW!

That makes absolutely 0 sense. Think about what you just said. Why do you ASSume this will be a thrill ride. I was initally in this post gonna say "let's not all turn into an ignorant mob" but I fear it has already happened.

 

[Scar Junior]

Originally posted by jrashadb
*faints*
*wakes up*

...no. NO!
They can't change SE like this, can they? They just can't...
SE is my favorite ride... I love SE.
See, I'm a journalist... a communicator. And, I've always loved Spaceship Earth. I force my friends who go to Epcot with me to go on SE, even if they don't like it... I can't even think straight... they can't change SE from a ride about communication to some stupid thrill ride. I like thrill rides as much as the next guy, but why can't they just build one instead of gutting a current attraction and changing it all around...
In 10 years Epcot is going to be something completely different from what it is right now. That's unfortunate.

#1. Why do you think it's going to be a thrill ride? Is it because you read it in another pessimists post and take THAT as evidence? All this is, is an updated SE with new technology.

#2. In 10 years Epcot is going to be something completely different - if we're lucky. - Think about it, an updated SE, M:S, TT, Figment will still be with us, but who knows what will happen with the Land, WoL, and Living Seas. Maybe more countries. Maybe a popular park again....

 

[Tigggrl]

Next time I meet someone from Imagineering, Ill ask them...Ok???
I met the nicest lady the other night who is an imagineer...and she had worked on several things in the parks...I talked to her for about 20 minutes! She and I have the same opinion about the details and scenery in the parks,,,how wonderful it all is, and how I am always so impressed with it....The Haunted Mansion Holiday is a great example!
Soooo
I will ask nex time...K???:lol: :lol:

 

[Disneynutcase]

Hmm...

An interesing phenomenon seems to be happening here. Most people who are bemoaning the possibilty that the current SSE gets the ax focus their discussion on their particular disdain for current Disney decision-makers with very little insulting or dissing of others on this board.

And several others who think that SSE is a dinosaur and/or are in support of this change seem to spew catty venom at the "non-desirious of change people."

Not that there hasn't been good arguments on both sides, but people like Scar Junior who refer to several of us as an "ignorant mob" perhaps should rethink their position. This forum is for discussion, isn't it?

And I think the discussion shows that if Disney decides to do-in SSE, then controversy as well as anger from some long-term patrons is sure to follow.

 

[wahooskipper]

Ok ScarJunior,

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt but if you imply that I am an a$$ one more time I am going to hunt you down and kick your a$$.

You will notice that I said, "IF they put in an adult attraction." Not WHEN they put in an adult attraction. I am all for an SE overhaul. Personally, I still think it is impressive but I am sure there are some maintenance issues that are pushing it toward extinction. Change, for the lack of a better word, is good. Change works.

My only comment was that I think whatever goes in there needs to be for the whole family because it is the very first thing all age groups think about when they think about Epcot.