Is this really a service dog?

[The Mom]

Never seen a mini-horse that was trained as a seeing eye dog, they are used by people that need "emotional support" which falls into the mental illness category. If they were leading around a blind person then it would be a physical condition but anytime someone needs a mini-horse, ferret or any other animal for companionship that's a mental illness. Normal people don't need to have their pet to keep from having a panic attack, though I seriously doubt any of the con-artists running around with their mini-horses or other animals would really have a panic attack as they are just trying to game the system. It seems so funny that years ago you never heard about anyone needing a emotional support animal.. .now suddenly when airlines are forced to allow them everyone start popping up with a need for one.

Miniature Horses as Service Animals | What Can They Do?

Laws have changed to allow miniature horses as service animals. We cover their benefits, tasks they can perform, and how to obtain one.

usserviceanimals.org

 

[jaklgreen]

Airlines will never do anything because they are afraid of being sued. Just carry some sugar free snack loaded with xylitol and feed these "service dogs"... If its a real service dog it isn't going to be tempted by a treat from a stranger.. If it isn't then 10 or 15 minutes later and the problem is solved.

I think that they would rather get sued by the dog owner the parent of a child that got bit. That is some serious bad PR to have people say that they saw the dog lunge at kids and the airline did not remove causing a child to get injured. But, the way society is now, who knows. I am still shocked that there are so many people out there that have jumped on this emotional support bandwagon and that society is allowing it.

 

[thomas998]

I think that they would rather get sued by the dog owner the parent of a child that got bit. That is some serious bad PR to have people say that they saw the dog lunge at kids and the airline did not remove causing a child to get injured. But, the way society is now, who knows. I am still shocked that there are so many people out there that have jumped on this emotional support bandwagon and that society is allowing it.

Sadly the airline will just let a kid get bit and then try to push the blame all on to the dog owner, when the airlines are really just as much to blame for it happening.

 

[thomas998]

Miniature Horses as Service Animals | What Can They Do?

Laws have changed to allow miniature horses as service animals. We cover their benefits, tasks they can perform, and how to obtain one.

usserviceanimals.org

If they are willing to revise it to include horses they should also revise it to require medical proof of the disability and a very large fine for using one without a license.

 

[JoeCamel]

If they are willing to revise it to include horses they should also revise it to require medical proof of the disability and a very large fine for using one without a license.

Just don't want to give that one up do you?

 

[correcaminos]

The closest example is a handicap license plate or hang tag for your car. The DMV doesn't just hand them out like candy, you have to get a licensed medical doctor to sign a form that indicates you need that handicap tag... How hard would it be to simply require a person that needs a service dog to do the same thing and then just be required to slip the official license from the government into whatever doggie vest the dog wears so everyone would know it was a legit animal.

Doctors are not the ones with the service dogs though. Having a note from a doctor wouldn't help either because you could just pretend any dog is a service animal. You would have to go through hundreds of schools across the country to accredit. Plus you can train the dog yourself by law. Who will be in charge of all of this?

Personally it would be nice to have a license but the reality of it is so hard. Not all dogs wear the same kind of vests or harnesses. I think a physical card would be better than a specific vest that may not work well for all types of dogs.

 

[EOD K9]

To each his own however I would not yell "fraud" to an unsuspecting person out in public. Would you and then be prepared for their reactive measures?
I don’t yell stolen valor out, as much as I’d love to I also wouldn’t call people out in public, as much as I’d love to. My post obviously didn’t convey clearly the fact that there should be a way to call people out. I’ve had people go from zero to sixty while working, I try not to engage with anyone off duty either.

 

[Incomudro]

The closest example is a handicap license plate or hang tag for your car. The DMV doesn't just hand them out like candy, you have to get a licensed medical doctor to sign a form that indicates you need that handicap tag... How hard would it be to simply require a person that needs a service dog to do the same thing and then just be required to slip the official license from the government into whatever doggie vest the dog wears so everyone would know it was a legit animal.

It should be MORE difficult to get a service dog license/permit than it is to get a handicap placard as far as I'm concerned.
Because faking a service dog has more of a potential impact than faking parking spot access.

 

[Demarke]

Never seen a mini-horse that was trained as a seeing eye dog, they are used by people that need "emotional support" which falls into the mental illness category. If they were leading around a blind person then it would be a physical condition but anytime someone needs a mini-horse, ferret or any other animal for companionship that's a mental illness. Normal people don't need to have their pet to keep from having a panic attack, though I seriously doubt any of the con-artists running around with their mini-horses or other animals would really have a panic attack as they are just trying to game the system. It seems so funny that years ago you never heard about anyone needing a emotional support animal.. .now suddenly when airlines are forced to allow them everyone start popping up with a need for one.

Guide horses are definitely a thing, I didn’t really understand why until reading something recently that pointed out that the horses can live up to 3x as long as a seeing eye dog, which is a major benefit over having to purchase or train a new dog every 12 years or so and go through the challenges of acclimating to a new service animal. I imagine that other people are probably also less likely to try to play with, feed, or otherwise distract a mini horse while it’s working.

 

[thomas998]

Doctors are not the ones with the service dogs though. Having a note from a doctor wouldn't help either because you could just pretend any dog is a service animal. You would have to go through hundreds of schools across the country to accredit. Plus you can train the dog yourself by law. Who will be in charge of all of this?

Personally it would be nice to have a license but the reality of it is so hard. Not all dogs wear the same kind of vests or harnesses. I think a physical card would be better than a specific vest that may not work well for all types of dogs.

Having a hangtag or handicapped license plate doesn't mean that the car it is put on is safe for the road it simple means the person has right to use the handicapped parking spaces, likewise having people that want a service dog get a card is never intended to verify that the the dog they have is well trained but it would certainly eliminate a lot of the fraudulent usage of cheap vests just to game the system. If the cards were issued by the state based on a doctor's recommendation it would mean any con-artist trying to pass off their favorite pet as a service animal would have to counterfeit a state issued card which would be a felony, and most people aren't going to be willing to take a risk on that as it is a whole different level than simply getting a little red vest for their dog.

I'm not sure why think anyone would need to go through hundred of schools. If the system were changed to where the person having the service animal just had to slip a state issued license into a little transparent holder in the animal's vest then why does anyone need to verify the training facility? The expectation is that if you were truly in need of a service animal, had gone to the trouble of getting your license to own one, that you would do your own due diligence in making sure you got one that was properly trained. I can't imagine someone that needed a guide dog going out and just getting one from a seller on craigslist of discount guide dogs.

 

[Polkadotdress]

I can't imagine someone that needed a guide dog going out and just getting one from a seller on craigslist of discount guide dogs.

Then you are woefully naive, because that is what is going on right now with people who people who generally don't have a need for a service dog. They engage with a fraudulent merchant to obtain a fraudulent vest or placards for their dogs, and then attempt to pass them off as service dogs. Those that truly need and use a service dog are not the issue.

 

[RobWDW1971]

Then you are woefully naive, because that is what is going on right now with people who people who generally don't have a need for a service dog. They engage with a fraudulent merchant to obtain a fraudulent vest or placards for their dogs, and then attempt to pass them off as service dogs. Those that truly need and use a service dog are not the issue.

And you have to differentiate between those that require ADA Service Animals (specially trained dogs and mini horses) and the vast majority that are just using “comfort animals”.

The vast majority of issues is from the latter and in CA, for example, one only needs a note from an acupuncturist to be able to bring a “comfort animal” with no training of any kind into workplaces and get protection.

Since ADA service animals are not required to wear a vest/badge nor can a company demand proof (beyond the two legal questions they can ask), it is just a free for all and the public suffers. You would rarely notice a real service dog around you nor do they tend to cause any disturbance.

The narcissists in our society see this as an opening to bring their untrained animal anywhere they want without any regard to the impact on others.

Well meaning, but misguided legislators have caused this and opened Pandora’s Box.

 

[jaklgreen]

Having a hangtag or handicapped license plate doesn't mean that the care it is put on is safe for the road it simple means the person has right to use the handicapped parking spaces, likewise having people that want a service dog get a card is never intended to verify that the the dog they have is well trained but it would certainly eliminate a lot of the fraudulent usage of cheap vests just to game the system. If the cards were issued by the state based on a doctor's recommendation it would mean any con-artist trying to pass off their favorite pet as a service animal would have to counterfeit a state issued card which would be a felony, and most people aren't going to be willing to take a risk on that as it is a whole different level than simply getting a little red vest for their dog.

I'm not sure why think anyone would need to go through hundred of schools. If the system were changed to where the person having the service animal just had to slip a state issued license into a little transparent holder in the animal's vest then why does anyone need to verify the training facility? The expectation is that if you were truly in need of a service animal, had gone to the trouble of getting your license to own one, that you would do your own due diligence in making sure you got one that was properly trained. I can't imagine someone that needed a guide dog going out and just getting one from a seller on craigslist of discount guide dogs.

I think that having a system in place to have the dogs registered and have the owners get a license from the state is very doable. Just like getting a handicapped permit, you go to the doctor and they fill out a form. After all, service animals are for medical issues, be it physical or mental. Then any dog should be put through it's paces at the humane society and pass the assessment that they are able to behave as a service dog should. Send in your forms and get your permit. I don't think that it would be as difficult to do as some would think. If anyone wants to include their emotional support animal because they physically can not leave the house without their pet, then that pet should be held to the same standard as any other service animal.

 

[correcaminos]

Having a hangtag or handicapped license plate doesn't mean that the care it is put on is safe for the road it simple means the person has right to use the handicapped parking spaces, likewise having people that want a service dog get a card is never intended to verify that the the dog they have is well trained but it would certainly eliminate a lot of the fraudulent usage of cheap vests just to game the system. If the cards were issued by the state based on a doctor's recommendation it would mean any con-artist trying to pass off their favorite pet as a service animal would have to counterfeit a state issued card which would be a felony, and most people aren't going to be willing to take a risk on that as it is a whole different level than simply getting a little red vest for their dog.

I'm not sure why think anyone would need to go through hundred of schools. If the system were changed to where the person having the service animal just had to slip a state issued license into a little transparent holder in the animal's vest then why does anyone need to verify the training facility? The expectation is that if you were truly in need of a service animal, had gone to the trouble of getting your license to own one, that you would do your own due diligence in making sure you got one that was properly trained. I can't imagine someone that needed a guide dog going out and just getting one from a seller on craigslist of discount guide dogs.

I am more than aware of what is needed for HC tags and also how getting a service dog works. They are not remotely the same method or steps, and nor should they be. Getting a service animal is a multi step thing. The licensing should be with the dog, not the human. the dogs are in need of training and then the humans train additionally with them for 2-4 weeks. The dogs can also be deemed unfit for use during schools. They try to match as best as possible but sometimes dogs just are not a good fit for their handlers. I'd want those dogs to be checked, not as much as the handler only. They really are working as a team, but since it is the last step, the card should only be given then or you will get con artists. Without that, any con artist could get a doc to sign off and then use a pet that isn't legit. If you've ever gotten a HC tag, you'd know it's not that hard to get.

Remember also service dogs are not just guide dogs too. They all have different jobs.

I think those of us with first hand knowledge realize how incredibly difficult this would be to do. Not that it couldn't be done or that we're against it. We just know it's not at all the same as a HC tag. So don't think I'm against it, you are just way over simplifying a process. Like how often should dogs be certified for? Who would do this? How can you make sure all those could have it done without stress of travel?

This is just complicated and not what you are implying. And again please don't think a vest would be enough to show. Not all animals can wear the same type. A card with a picture of the proven trained dog would be better or that vest could be put on anything.

 

[correcaminos]

I think that having a system in place to have the dogs registered and have the owners get a license from the state is very doable. Just like getting a handicapped permit, you go to the doctor and they fill out a form. After all, service animals are for medical issues, be it physical or mental. Then any dog should be put through it's paces at the humane society and pass the assessment that they are able to behave as a service dog should. Send in your forms and get your permit. I don't think that it would be as difficult to do as some would think. If anyone wants to include their emotional support animal because they physically can not leave the house without their pet, then that pet should be held to the same standard as any other service animal.

How do you prove the dog is good? And through the Humane society? I'm sorry but big fat no. They are no way in anyway shape or form fit to judge a dog that has had 2 years of training. This is why it's not simple.

I'd rather leave it to the schools to decide who gets the dogs as usual and then have them accredited. Then hand out a proper ID card after the 2-4 week school with the handler.

The biggest issue is finding who will judge what animals really are fit. And how to get this to be across the US.

Lastly no way ever should an ESA have the same rights as a Service Animal. I'm sorry but you really lessened the importance of Service Animals by saying they deserve the same protection. Those animals cost up to $50k to train in the end. They really are a tool, not a fluffy companion. Sorry rant over but I'm huge into protecting rights of service animals. I have too many friends who need them and have had months with schools over the years to train with their dogs.

 

[Smiley/OCD]

Doctors are not the ones with the service dogs though. Having a note from a doctor wouldn't help either because you could just pretend any dog is a service animal. You would have to go through hundreds of schools across the country to accredit. Plus you can train the dog yourself by law. Who will be in charge of all of this?

Personally it would be nice to have a license but the reality of it is so hard. Not all dogs wear the same kind of vests or harnesses. I think a physical card would be better than a specific vest that may not work well for all types of dogs.

I will agree to disagree on this, BUT, if I have to get a letter from my Neurologist every 2 years to get my handicapped placard renewed with the MVC, a doctor should have to provide a letter/RX for the need of a service animal. The permit/license would have the company/organization that accredited the animal. If the animal bites, attacks another individual/animal,etc., the potential plaintiff would have the necessary information to institute a lawsuit with not only the service animal owner, but the people who issued the accreditation. There would have to be ONE or TWO vests that would be acceptable and any animal not wearing the official vests would be turned away at the gates/doors of the business. This would also allow the SA owner to go after the licensing facility as well. Yes, it will be burdensome for the owner in the beginning, but in the long run, the system will be much more streamlined and safer for everyone. In my view, the only people who would (or should) be against this would be the people who are using the ADA for their advantage and are dishonest.

 

[correcaminos]

I will agree to disagree on this, BUT, if I have to get a letter from my Neurologist every 2 years to get my handicapped placard renewed with the MVC, a doctor should have to provide a letter/RX for the need of a service animal. The permit/license would have the company/organization that accredited the animal. If the animal bites, attacks another individual/animal,etc., the potential plaintiff would have the necessary information to institute a lawsuit with not only the service animal owner, but the people who issued the accreditation. There would have to be ONE or TWO vests that would be acceptable and any animal not wearing the official vests would be turned away at the gates/doors of the business. This would also allow the SA owner to go after the licensing facility as well. Yes, it will be burdensome for the owner in the beginning, but in the long run, the system will be much more streamlined and safer for everyone. In my view, the only people who would (or should) be against this would be the people who are using the ADA for their advantage and are dishonest.

Right so my problem with this is that HC tags are for use of a spot. Service animals are for the handlers but the issue lies with the animals that are not truly trained right. The issue isn't just the humans but also lack of qualified dogs.

And again for security vests are a bad idea IMO. A pic ID with dog will prove that the dog is the correct one, I actually don't want it with the owner as much as proving the dog is legit. It really should be beyond just the handler which is what I am arguing for. But I get all you are saying. However not sure how I feel about suing the school. They rely on so many donations to keep afloat that one issue with behavior could take out a place. Unless you mean the one who hands the accreditation to the school could be sued, but wouldn't that be the govt?

 

[Smiley/OCD]

@helenabear, I want to make it clear that I am 100% behind you when it comes to the legitimate use/ need of SA's. Let's be honest, the federal government created this mess, and unfortunately, it will be up to us, the voters, to impress upon our legislators to go back and develop a set of guidelines & requirements necessary to own a SA. There are national, state, county and local building codes...anyone who has had to obtain a building permit to complete a simple home remodeling job knows the hoops that the homeowner has to jump thru to obtain that said permit. As the HO, you have to obtain the contractor with the proper licence to complete the job. That in its self should (in theory) weed out most people taking shortcuts. In addition, the SA's homeowners insurance company will also get involved to lessen their exposure to a potential lawsuit. In NJ, (that's the only state I can speak about), I must inform my insurance company the breed of dog that I have on premises. Pit Bulls, Dobermans, Chows require an additional rider to the HO policy. I am very sorry for the people who need the SA and the extra steps that will be required to obtain the permit/license/vest. In the long run, however, it will benefit everyone.

 

[correcaminos]

@helenabear, I want to make it clear that I am 100% behind you when it comes to the legitimate use/ need of SA's. Let's be honest, the federal government created this mess, and unfortunately, it will be up to us, the voters, to impress upon our legislators to go back and develop a set of guidelines & requirements necessary to own a SA. There are national, state, county and local building codes...anyone who has had to obtain a building permit to complete a simple home remodeling job knows the hoops that the homeowner has to jump thru to obtain that said permit. As the HO, you have to obtain the contractor with the proper licence to complete the job. That in its self should (in theory) weed out most people taking shortcuts. In addition, the SA's homeowners insurance company will also get involved to lessen their exposure to a potential lawsuit. In NJ, (that's the only state I can speak about), I must inform my insurance company the breed of dog that I have on premises. Pit Bulls, Dobermans, Chows require an additional rider to the HO policy. I am very sorry for the people who need the SA and the extra steps that will be required to obtain the permit/license/vest. In the long run, however, it will benefit everyone.

A mess is right. It's complicated and as you said not all states require the same thing. I do not notify mine with changes of pets for example. I would love to regulate it all, but realize it's a big undertaking to make it good across a national level.

 

[jaklgreen]

How do you prove the dog is good? And through the Humane society? I'm sorry but big fat no. They are no way in anyway shape or form fit to judge a dog that has had 2 years of training. This is why it's not simple.

I'd rather leave it to the schools to decide who gets the dogs as usual and then have them accredited. Then hand out a proper ID card after the 2-4 week school with the handler.

The biggest issue is finding who will judge what animals really are fit. And how to get this to be across the US.

Lastly no way ever should an ESA have the same rights as a Service Animal. I'm sorry but you really lessened the importance of Service Animals by saying they deserve the same protection. Those animals cost up to $50k to train in the end. They really are a tool, not a fluffy companion. Sorry rant over but I'm huge into protecting rights of service animals. I have too many friends who need them and have had months with schools over the years to train with their dogs.

Most places have some sort of humane society and so there is no reason why they can not have certified personnel that are trained to put the dog through it's paces. I obviously did not mean to have just any volunteer certifying the animal. I think that most people understood that. There are not as many service dog schools as their are humane societies so it is a convenience thing. Just like any other licensing, there needs to be a government standard and protocol. They would do the same thing that the schools do to test out the service animal to make sure that it can behave as it is supposed to. There are some, very few cases that people need an ESA. Like a soldier with PTSD. They very much qualify as needing a service animal. The ridiculous ones where people are just using it as an excuse to take their "fur baby" with them everywhere could be weeded out this way because the animal would need to be trained properly. There is no reason why the schools can not be involved in the certification if they have an approved person that can test the dog out. Just like drivers ED taking the place of going to the DMV. It comes down to there having to be a standard to these animals and providing a license to be able to have a service animal.