Is the clock ticking on the Sorcerer Mickey Hat icon at the Studios? YES!

Goofyernmost

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Admiral01 said:
Because being a cheerleader for everything Disney does, regardless of whether it is good or bad, provides them with the reinforcement that the company can do anything they want and the fans won't care - they will like it no matter what.

Disney could replace the smoked turkey leg with dog poop on a stick, and the fans who love everything that Disney does regardless of quality will provide enough positive reinforcement that Disney will decide that the dog poop on a stick was a good move.

True fans need to give realistic feedback to keep companies like Disney from becomming too assured that their decisions can do no wrong.

Disney can and does make bonehead decisions. If all we do is love everything, those bonehead decisions become the norm and all of our experiences will suffer. It is our responsibility as consumers to say "I like this" and "I don't like that."
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First and foremost, if you like something, it is your opinion. If you don't like something, it is still your opinion. Just because either one is "our personal opinion" does not automatically mean it is correct or that it applies to everyone else. No one but I, decide what I like or don't like. If someone thinks something from before was better and constantly decides that it has to be repeated and repeated until everyone feels the same way, well, that is a waste of time. I am one of the ones that went there repeatedly from the early 80's on. I went quite often during the so called glory years and I went as an adult that was paying for the experience, not a kid with bright lights and stars in my eyes.

I have seen both good and bad since then. I have snidely commented on a couple of old time photo's from the golden era and cannot help but wonder how something that was that primitive back then can be remembered as something better then it is today. Some attractions, especially queue areas have suffered in recent years, but that wasn't pixie dust related, it was make a list and see all you can see in the least amount of time mentality brought on by the introduction of FP. Dark rides are limited in their popularity now because people are convinced that it's gotta be "all thrills all the time" so the time and importance isn't put on them the way that they once were. Is that Disney or is that the Guest. I see streets that are brighter, cheerier and kept up as well as can be considering what slobs today's society is. Others see it as gone to hell in a hand basket because it doesn't match their childhood memories. Think back to your youth and tell me what measures up to what you remember things were back then. Is that change or is that the difference between youthful perception and adult perception.

Because someone likes Turkey legs does not mean that they have bought into the Disney is always right pattern and if it were a big steaming pile of dog poo the would still like it, is hyperbole at its finest. Because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean that everyone needs too, or that there is anything adherent wrong with liking it as if they were placed in a trance to just buy it.

This whole being led is just a daydream. People that don't have their opinions implanted by outside sources and go there are going to decide if they like it or they don't. They are going to decide if events touch them or the don't. You or anyone else is not empowered to make that decision for them. Or to judge them and call them names because they feel something that a group of self proclaimed experts on everything disagree with.
 
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A

Admiral01

Premium Member
Phicinfan said:
I guess my question would be ...who are you to decide if someone is wrong if they do like a change or not? Why do you get to decide that?

Yes there are many that love Disney and are willing to take whatever they are given. Some are more choiceful. My issue is those here who are demonstrative to those so positive on Disney and feel they have the right to insult or call them names simply because they are seen as blind faith believers.

While I agree, this is an open forum, and I also agree everyone should and can post how they feel, as it is their opinion, it can and is quite often very insulting to those posters that are very pro-change in disney at this forum.
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You ask a very philosophical question.

I'm not calling names, and I'm not saying right or wrong. I do have a problem with anyone who doesn't question things from time to time, including Disney.
 
A

AgeEight-E

Active Member
Admiral01 said:
You ask a very philosophical question.

I'm not calling names, and I'm not saying right or wrong. I do have a problem with anyone who doesn't question things from time to time, including Disney.
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But just because someone doesn't question the same things you do doesn't mean they don't question anything at all, or that they have no standards.
 
imagineer boy

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
Kman101 said:
I disagree that people are intentionally trying to "kill the happy buzz" (and yes, some are far more negative than they need to be, IMO). It's up to you how you react to something. Want to be happy, be happy. It goes both ways. It's not that hard to ignore posts you may not agree with.

And yes, there are many things they're doing at WDW that I'm happy about. I visit the parks still. I don't walk around miserable and nitpick when I'm there.

The point is, most of us SHOULDN'T be nitpicking because WDW shouldn't be at the point that we do nitpick. People act like so many of us just go out of our way to knock on those who like things. No. (Well, maybe some I'd guess). No, it seems to me the ones who want to "be happy" jump on everyone else, derail threads with arguments that make it clear the two sides just aren't going to agree. Again, respect of opinion works both ways.

You can like that hat all you want. You can like Frozen all you want. It doesn't make where they went and where they are going the right places.
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True, I still go to the parks and have fun as it would take a LOT of ruining and dumbing down to really make me not want to visit WDW. I think nit picking however is not a bad thing as a certain famous person once said:

"Whenever I ride an attraction, I'm always thinking what's wrong with the thing and how it could be improved"
-Walt Disney
 
Kman101

Kman101

Well-Known Member
Exactly. I have that mind frame of "what could be done better". It doesn't mean I hate what was done, it just means there's always room for improvement and making something even better.
 
Seabasealpha1

Seabasealpha1

Well-Known Member
sshindel said:
Sure you wouldn't want to take a magical journey here?
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Looks like he's smuggling a schnauzer...
love01.jpg
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
On the topic of 'why are people here' - What throws people is a forum like this is an outlet for many different types of people.

I'm putting this bit up top for the TL:DR crowd...
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An analogy people might relate to is Motion Pictures. Most people goto the movies to be entertained. They are not interested in the process of movie making, just the movie OUTPUT. But behind the movie there is all sorts of disciplines, theories, principles that are work together. Most consumers have no interest in these things, or even take them for granted. A movie being 'good' or 'bad' is a subjective topic usually based on if the viewer enjoyed it.. and they are less interested in understanding why the movie did or did not connect with them. These are simply the movie consumers.. or movie fans.

But there is a whole other audience that is aware of the science or techniques used.. and are interested in or maybe simply have a more heightened awareness to those topics. They can label a film not just on the enjoyment factor but also on merits of its elements or assembly. They may label films 'good' or 'bad' based on more of the components of the project rather than simply their personal tastes. They may find their conclusions a bit more objective, even if the individual gradings are still subjective. IE: A movie critic that has to review a Romantic Comedy they have no interest in and tries to critique the film's elements like actor performance, photography, set/costumes, writing, etc.. Because they are looking at components that can be argued individually on their own merits, they tend to be more conclusive in their labels. A fan might simply say "I didn't like it"... a critic might say "Its a bad film"

The pinnacle of this is the Award Shows. The voters are critiquing films on dimensions the 'movie fan' are oblivious to or don't care about. The fan largely cares only if the film worked for them personally. But because these award folks are in the industry of creating that stuff and or admire the process itself, they grade each other on merits of portions of the project. They focus in on the 'art of the show' and less about 'what resonated with the public'. And we have the classic "why did the english patient get best picture??? I hate that movie" situation :)

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Ok, now how does this map out in Disney terms? TL:DR readers check out now...

These are categories... not necessarily hard boundaries. Many may have motivations fed by multiple categories, but most people with self-study would probably associate themselves with one more strongly than another.

  • You have the trip planners - I need info or advice on trip specifics. I'm not seeking a lecture on history or why such and such is a bad art choice. These people can be anything from Disney first timers.. to those looking to enhance their vacations. These people come to the forum just when they have a need. Some users switch into this mode when focused on a single objective.
  • You have the 'discovery phase' for newer guests - They've enjoyed Disney as a customer, and now they seek out more and more details about 'what is available'. These are the people that are eager to find out 'what else does Disney offer'. They are lured by a taste of the good stuff.. and they are desperately seeking more. They may have a budding interest in the company's past, but are more driven by seeking out the experiences. They may not be actively planning a trip... but they are building out their "wish list" of activities and are excited to see change as it represents new opportunities. These people will be heavy forum users who ramp up their time here.
  • You have the "in search of..." crowd - Typically users who may be trying to find some detail about memories of old.. or maybe come from a related topic that is crossing over into the Disney business and are just trying to find info. These people are usually transient.
  • You have the 'fanatic customer' - These are the customers that just can't get enough Disney. They go to the parks as much as they can... they look at disney news, fan talk, etc because it gives them 'their disney dose' when they aren't at Disney. They consider themselves well educated in Disney's offerings and will retain a lot about the past offerings as they experienced them. They may appreciate nostalgia, or throwbacks especially to things they experienced... but it's mostly about what they will experience or look forward to experiencing. They are eager for news, sharing, and details because the internal motivation is they want to consume the product themselves. They like Disney communities as they can surround themselves with people with similar interests and likes. They'll love the 'what is your favorite XYZ' thread, etc.
All of the above tend to be people that focus on Disney as CONSUMERS. The last category is typically the type that can evolve into the 'pixie duster' label -- Their eagerness for more and more leads to excitement and payoff for just anything Disney puts out. They are also the ones that can get offended or defensive when someone is critical of the thing they find so much pleasure in. They can take the criticism as an attack on their personal interests or values. It hits close to home when what you enjoy is looked down on or made into a negative.

What confuses people is there are other categories of users that appreciate Disney as not just CONSUMERS of the product, but as students of the HOW behind the output of Disney. Be it students of the ART behind things, the SCIENCE, the BUSINESS, the SHOW. Many consumers of Disney don't look at Disney ITSELF as if it were a Model itself to dissect and analyze. People forget, Disney is/was a trendsetter in establishing entire new industries. Disney is/was a role model for many types of trades.... be it artists, producers, designers, engineers, or business managers.

This is an entirely different side of Disney that attracts many people. The "art of the show" so to speak. Their interest in the product is not primarily driven as a CONSUMER of it, but motivated by the creative or business processes themselves. Disney is a leading producer of things they are interested by. They are interested in the technical merit of things, the reasons behind choices, the art of the show that when applied correctly has established concepts and products that are loved the world over.

  • 'fans of WDI' - the early stage of geeking over Disney. They will be interested in all the backstage magic. They will be interested in understanding HOW things are done. They can be motivated by 'the knowing the secret behind the magic', they are interested in how its achieved. The thirst for knowledge or personal attachment drives them. They get enjoyment from seeing how the magic is made. Typically these fans will eagerly seek out all details on attractions, their background, their histories, their evolution. Driven by wanting more.. more examples, more variations, etc. Interviews are about finding the details you couldn't see, or learning the tricks behind it all, etc.
  • 'Students of Walt' - Eventually these people might evolve into wanting to understand WHY things are done.. because they often have their own take on creative decisions and things they think would be cool or not. The study of the 'why' leads them to understand the PRINCIPLES involved (vs simply knowing the EXAMPLES) and what steered successful efforts. They will be interested in hearing from the imagineers themselves because they want to understand and get deeper details. They will be interested in the new projects because its another new example to interpret, understand, and make their own critique using their understandings of the principles involved. They will read books and do research to gain more insight, more reference, more knowledge from those that were responsible for things they look up to as such great achievements. These people will GEEK OVER DISNEY vs just be excited to consume Disney as an entertainment experience.
So what you have is the Disney GEEK vs the Disney FAN. Some may think they geek over the outputs.. but the evolution is to not just obsess over the examples... but understand the principles that allowed such a wide variety of examples to all be successful. It's about understanding the theory, and not just the practice. Why? Some may aspire to be in that kind of business, some just like to dream, some see it as analyzing the company and it's future.

Where the friction comes in is when these later categories can be CRITICAL of the Disney product... and not from a consumer view, but from the view of product creation and management. They are critical of the process that lead to the attraction/experience. In doing so they often label things as 'good' or 'bad'. People who are just looking at it as a point of consumption... can take offense when someone calls something they appreciate 'bad'. They think it's a reflection on them as well in a negative connotation. "you like THAT??"

Disney FANS may be less critical in the sense of things that don't interest them, they can simply pass over unless it directly blocks them. Disney GEEKs may be more critical of all products, even if they don't directly consume it. The topic of interest for the Geek is the process or output itself.. not necessarily their personal consumption of it.
 
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