Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[Grimley1968]

I've been trying to collect all the reasons I've gone from a WDW booster to skeptic. Sticking to resorts and leaving out the parks as much as possible for (relative) brevity:

1) Inside WDW Transportation. This is still probably the biggest reason IMO to stay on property. Being able to park your own car at the resort and "letting Disney do the driving" is a very nice perk. The addition of the Skyliner in the DHS/EPCOT was a well executed idea for the space it occupies.

2) MDE. I never used this because we're close enough to drive easily, but MDE had to be a major perk for those farther away who have to fly. Dropping complimentary MDE was a major mistake, IMO.

3) Theming. This was great at its peak, but with the increasing homogenization of even the deluxe resorts (even the Poly), there's less incentive to think of even the deluxe resorts as anything but a place to lay your head at night, aside from the easier transportation to the parks. With the encroachment of DVC at seemingly all the resorts, the individuality of the more expensive resorts is disappearing. These days you can save money by staying at Pop and having great transportation to EPCOT and DHS via Skyliner, versus staying at the Poly with its transportation to MK and EPCOT (assuming walking to the TTC to catch the EPCOT monorail). Why pay the extra to stay at Poly when I can get nearly the same accommodations at Pop with newer transportation, and can drive over to Poly if I really want to eat a Kona Cafe breakfast? Theming of the resorts, outside of maybe WL and AKL, really isn't much of a reason for the extra cost anymore, IMO.

4) Dining. I always enjoyed Boatwright's (is that still open?) at POR because it's quiet and the food was excellent without feeling the Disney bubble pressing on every one of my senses, Kona at the Poly, Whispering Canyon (love being able to see the WL lobby while eating) and some others, more so than dining in the parks. That's at least one incentive to stay at a more expensive onsite resort than Pop or All Stars, but it's not a major one, considering the options offsite for less money and probably just as good. For the values, that's a major disincentive to staying there, when most offsite hotels are usually within an easy drive of better dining.

5) Included parking. It's not a big thing in the grand scheme, but it was a perk that appealed to people within reasonable driving distance of WDW or flyers who wanted to rent a vehicle. Charging extra for resort parking, even if temporarily, left a really bad taste in my mouth and I don't have much conviction that they won't charge again in the future. But it's a great incentive for people to use WDW's transportation to the parks and should remain.

This only covers on site resorts (though by no means exhaustive), as parks' pros/cons are too complicated to add to this, but suffice it to say I'm not in the least a fan of the monetization of FP, for a bunch of reasons. But of the above onsite advantages listed, I'd say only #1 still applies fully, and #4 partially (even though there's no reason you can't come from offsite to dine at a resort). #2 and #3 no longer apply as advantages. #5 applies, for now. All that changes my recommendations to people who ask me these days.

 

[Lilofan]

Awww… is that the Cape May Buffet? After eating there one summer evening in July back in the 19-somethings I got engaged. Not in the rose garden like I had planned, because you know, Florida summer thunderstorms and all, but on a bench in some obscure intersection of guest room hallways. It worked out though. We’re celebrating 28 years. Tomorrow actually.

Congratulations and yes the Cape May buffet. We enjoy the resorts buffets more than the parks buffets due to the fact that we get queasy going on motion rides later in the day after a big meal in the park.

 

[Grimley1968]

How accurate are waiting times on the app? Sometimes see a lot of 70mins 90mins. I’m from uk so don’t mind waiting 1hr for a ride. Just wandering if following an app for wait time is the best thing?

I could be over simplifying things, but from what I've seen on here, a) the app wait times are not likely to underestimate the wait times, but often seem to be overestimates, especially if some external event is soon and b) I believe the app wait times are the same as what you'll see on kiosks in the parks or at the ride entrances so at least it can save you some time walking around to find kiosks, etc.

 

[mattpeto]

Awww… is that the Cape May Buffet? After eating there one summer evening in July back in the 19-somethings I got engaged. Not in the rose garden like I had planned, because you know, Florida summer thunderstorms and all, but on a bench in some obscure intersection of guest room hallways. It worked out though. We’re celebrating 28 years. Tomorrow actually.

I have no plans to ever go back to Cape May Cafe without the included crab legs.

Went last December and crowds were comparable to previous years and Cape May Cafe dinner reservations slots were always in abundance. Hopefully they will come around with this - especially now that the Dining Plan is back.

 

[Ayla]

Awww… is that the Cape May Buffet? After eating there one summer evening in July back in the 19-somethings I got engaged. Not in the rose garden like I had planned, because you know, Florida summer thunderstorms and all, but on a bench in some obscure intersection of guest room hallways. It worked out though. We’re celebrating 28 years. Tomorrow actually.

Happy Anniversary! Our 28th wedding anniversary is this summer, too.

 

[bwr827]

Other things that helped drive the high travel demand 22/23 were previously skipped vacations, families that saved money working from home and not going out much in 20/21, and home equities shooting up. People were so excited to finally get back to real life, many with excess money and a splurge mentality. WDW was a beneficiary and I think that all had more to do with higher per capita spending than any specific thing Disney did during that time.

That was my family. Originally booked for late 2020 after saving for several years. Held the money and added to it, so our eventual spring 2023 trip was more extravagant.

Where we may differ from others, though, is that we had such an amazing time in 2023 that we have our next two trips planned at roughly 18-month intervals.

 

[bwr827]

I've been trying to collect all the reasons I've gone from a WDW booster to skeptic. Sticking to resorts and leaving out the parks as much as possible for (relative) brevity:

1) Inside WDW Transportation. This is still probably the biggest reason IMO to stay on property. Being able to park your own car at the resort and "letting Disney do the driving" is a very nice perk. The addition of the Skyliner in the DHS/EPCOT was a well executed idea for the space it occupies.

2) MDE. I never used this because we're close enough to drive easily, but MDE had to be a major perk for those farther away who have to fly. Dropping complimentary MDE was a major mistake, IMO.

3) Theming. This was great at its peak, but with the increasing homogenization of even the deluxe resorts (even the Poly), there's less incentive to think of even the deluxe resorts as anything but a place to lay your head at night, aside from the easier transportation to the parks. With the encroachment of DVC at seemingly all the resorts, the individuality of the more expensive resorts is disappearing. These days you can save money by staying at Pop and having great transportation to EPCOT and DHS via Skyliner, versus staying at the Poly with its transportation to MK and EPCOT (assuming walking to the TTC to catch the EPCOT monorail). Why pay the extra to stay at Poly when I can get nearly the same accommodations at Pop with newer transportation, and can drive over to Poly if I really want to eat a Kona Cafe breakfast? Theming of the resorts, outside of maybe WL and AKL, really isn't much of a reason for the extra cost anymore, IMO.

4) Dining. I always enjoyed Boatwright's (is that still open?) at POR because it's quiet and the food was excellent without feeling the Disney bubble pressing on every one of my senses, Kona at the Poly, Whispering Canyon (love being able to see the WL lobby while eating) and some others, more so than dining in the parks. That's at least one incentive to stay at a more expensive onsite resort than Pop or All Stars, but it's not a major one, considering the options offsite for less money and probably just as good. For the values, that's a major disincentive to staying there, when most offsite hotels are usually within an easy drive of better dining.

5) Included parking. It's not a big thing in the grand scheme, but it was a perk that appealed to people within reasonable driving distance of WDW or flyers who wanted to rent a vehicle. Charging extra for resort parking, even if temporarily, left a really bad taste in my mouth and I don't have much conviction that they won't charge again in the future. But it's a great incentive for people to use WDW's transportation to the parks and should remain.

This only covers on site resorts (though by no means exhaustive), as parks' pros/cons are too complicated to add to this, but suffice it to say I'm not in the least a fan of the monetization of FP, for a bunch of reasons. But of the above onsite advantages listed, I'd say only #1 still applies fully, and #4 partially (even though there's no reason you can't come from offsite to dine at a resort). #2 and #3 no longer apply as advantages. #5 applies, for now. All that changes my recommendations to people who ask me these days.

A well-considered and clearly structured post. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

The mentions of offsite dining… I feel like the bubble is so key to the experience that I don’t want to leave the resort area. However, we definitely ordered Uber Eats a few times because we’d had enough of Pop’s quick service.

 

[Nubs70]

I have to push back on that idea a bit.

I think there is a wildly inflated (no pun intended) idea of how far the stimulus money that individuals got went.

There were 3 stimulus payments, the last one was in March of 2021. If you add up all 3 of them, the total the average family got would basically just cover the cost of a week at Disney. If they saved all of them and then spent every cent of it on a vacation. I believe if you look at the data, you'll find that most people who found this to be "extra" money, and didn't actually have to use it to survive, used it to pay off debt, not go on vacation.

The people that got enhanced unemployment were...unemployed, and use the funds to pay for a roof over their head, keeping their cars, feeding their families, and so on.

That said, even if we assume that some of those people in fact did use it to go to Disney in 2021/22, it certainly didn't have any impact on consumer spending much beyond that.

The huge inflation that followed wasn't due to people getting a couple grand three plus years ago - it's largely manufactured by corporations who are driving prices up and...surprise surprise, making record profits. That's not inflation, it's corporate greed. Which then makes folks go, "oh look, the economy is doing great - look at how much Wall Street is making!" and trying to erase how much everyone else is hurting.

The long ago, little bit of stimulus money people got has become mythical at this point - this scapegoat people want us to believe somehow destroyed our economy, so they don't place the blame on the continued decimation of the middle class on the true corporate vampires sucking all the money out of our pockets.

Stimmy might be too on the microeconomic side.

Below is a graph of the M1 money supply. Too much money running around


M1 Money Supply

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Hopefully no one is that gullible or naive.

It’s useful spin so they don’t confront the obvious (softening demand).

Buying that they “wanted less” was easy red meat tossed to the crowd that can never say No to make themselves feel special.

Bob made it up on the fly when he was caught without a polished answer to a tough question…but he’s not stupid

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I could be over simplifying things, but from what I've seen on here, a) the app wait times are not likely to underestimate the wait times, but often seem to be overestimates, especially if some external event is soon and b) I believe the app wait times are the same as what you'll see on kiosks in the parks or at the ride entrances so at least it can save you some time walking around to find kiosks, etc.

They’re trying to inflate them…no secret on the simple tactic there…

…but the wrinkle their ops/maintenance is SO BAD…that breakdowns are making it all over the place

 

[Lilofan]

Most of that money was gone pretty quickly. We also have plenty of examples of a LOT more money than that being handed out in quantitative easement or even direct corporate bailouts that didn't cause any real change in inflation.

Inflation was driven by scarcity coming out of the pandemic. Corporations then took they opportunity to drive up prices FAR beyond their increased costs. You can see record profit margin after record profit margin being reported during earnings calls around that time and the only way a company increases their margins when costs go up is if they raise the price more than covering the cost.

A number of folks are upset on companies recording record profits. That’s capitalism 101 USA . One can’t just depend of help from others to help out their situation. 70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. It’s not just the poor. It’s the I want this lifestyle mindset for a number of people . In Texas they call it “ Big Hat , Little Cattle. “. Even at WDW we try to look where our money goes by eating the buffet breakfast provided at the hotel then eating light in the parks , buying merchandise at the discount outlets , not buying the $4 bottle water and asking for free ice water , etc.

 

[networkpro]

A number of folks are upset on companies recording record profits. That’s capitalism 101 USA . One can’t just depend of help from others to help out their situation. 70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. It’s not just the poor. It’s the I want this lifestyle mindset for a number of people . In Texas they call it “ Big Hat , Little Cattle. “. Even at WDW we try to look where our money goes by eating the buffet breakfast provided at the hotel then eating light in the parks , buying merchandise at the discount outlets , not buying the $4 bottle water and asking for free ice water , etc.

"All hat, no cattle" is the standard (ie presenting all the trappings of being something, but not actually being it) West of Fort Worth. People that believe that owning things from certain manufacturers imbue themselves with higher attributes or status. That's one of the outcomes of a credit based society with freedom of choice. Some choose to pretend.

 

[SamusAranX]

Apparently they are all going to Disneyland instead.

Disneyland is heavily Keyholder / local based, but I’m sure you already knew that.

 

[hopemax]

I am here now.

Went to AK on Thursday, got to the park around 2:30, and as usual, we were fish swimming upstream. After we watched the 3:00 LK Show, the park emptied out. Kilimanjaro Safaris was maybe 20 minutes. Great safari due to the 2 Eland and 2 giraffes who decided to camp out in front of our jeep. After we got off, wait times throughout the park had dropped, except on Kali which had a posted wait time of 90 minutes! The person I rode Everest with had gotten a drink before getting in the 30 minute Everest queue and had to down it, because it was not anywhere near 30 minutes. Dinosaur was about 15 minutes.

Epcot yesterday. Arrived about 3, since the goal was to see Luminous. Guardians VQ wait was 30 minutes compared to the usual 45 minutes, we experience. Spaceship Earth was down. Figment and Living with the Land were about 10 minutes. That's all the attractions we did. Although, I was checking the app from time to time and Frozen and Ratatouille stayed around 60 minutes, which is the top of my reasonable limit. For the most part, the walkway around WS was pretty dead. There is some Dance event thing going on, and they had apparently finished up at the old Millennium Village building about 5 minutes before we got there. So if you looked toward France, it was a mass of people, like how it is *supposed* to look, but it was just an event dumping out.

The one thing, is oh, boy does no food booths / festival affect the QS lines! We weren't 100% sure where we wanted to eat, but narrowed it down to France, Japan or AA. While looking at the stores in France... the gelato line was out the door, passed Monsieur Paul entrance, and into the main intersection. Line at Les Halles was almost out the building. So we decided on Japan, and that was busy but still okay. Then we went into Regal Eagle to refill our water bottles, and that place was jam packed.

We grabbed a bench between Italy and Germany (just to the right of the wheelchair viewing area) for Luminous. There was no rush of people trying to squeeze in at the last minute. The people there were polite, and stayed seated, so we were able to stay seated too.

We have the D23 Tiana event at MK tonight. It's supposed to be thunderstorms, so we'll see how that goes. But it's been awhile since I've been in the MK on a Saturday night. I know how it is supposed to be, this time of year. We'll see how it actually is.

 

[Willmark]

I think its suffice to say that between: Bob's comments, travel agent news, to anecdotal and everything else that is going on in the parks that there is something going on and it ain't "because its hot."

 

[Grimley1968]

I think its suffice to say that between: Bob's comments, travel agent news, to anecdotal and everything else that in the parks that there is something going on and it ain't "because its hot."

Right now with much of the country north of WDW hotter than WDW, that excuse really fails.

 

[Tha Realest]

Right now with much of the country north of WDW hotter than WDW, that excuse really fails.

The same ones telling us it is because it’s too hot sound an awful like another meteorological excuse where they do something to your leg and tell you it’s raining.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

How accurate are waiting times on the app? Sometimes see a lot of 70mins 90mins. I’m from uk so don’t mind waiting 1hr for a ride. Just wandering if following an app for wait time is the best thing?

Rather mixed. Sometimes the waits are longer- last summer MMRR had posted 45min and we waited 90. Often though, waits are shorter, like in the evening. In the last hour, they can be total bunk. I've seen rides posted at 70 when the ride was just about walk-on.

roughly, HS waits are often longer than posted, late in the day waits are inflated. In the morning, waits change quickly, but are often inflated if you arrive early.7D goes from zero to a long wait in seconds, so that one is anyone's guess. Others, I can somewhat eyeball- and you probably can too. Also, there is a lag early in the morning before G+ users start to arrive. Once they start arriving, about an hour after the park opens, then the standby can slow to a crawl.

The DAS reform may have some impact on all of the above in the coming weeks.

Looking at wait trends - and how quickly G+ return windows change can be of some use prior to your visit. You can try looking at thrilldata. Though that info also doesn't 100%= what you will experience in person.

 

[JD80]

Regarding "too hot", my wife refuses to go in the summer now because of temps.

 

[Lilofan]

I think its suffice to say that between: Bob's comments, travel agent news, to anecdotal and everything else that in the parks that there is something going on and it ain't "because its hot."

In NYC and NJ were temps near 100 heat index one can retreat to cool AC. In MK those similar temps one can really feel how hot it is when spending many hours outside and its not by choice.