Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[Laketravis]

I am not one to gage the crowd based on queue wait times. I base my view of the crowd based on how comfortable I am walking around the parks.

Same here. I've actually enjoyed our last three visits (December, February, April) because it was less congested compared to years past. Felt comfortable, as you said. Plenty of room on all the transportation options, few people at the resort pool and always able to get a table with an umbrella, and plenty of empty QS/TS tables when we decided to eat. Even just walking around was enjoyable.

The frustration (prompting the feelings of "crowded"?) came when not being able to procure a spot in VQ seconds after 7am, disproportionately high posted standby times, ride breakdowns, etc.

While our last three visits seemed to have the lowest crowd levels of any of our past visits in the last 20 years, the visits themselves were much less productive in terms of what we were able to accomplish each day. Yet obviously much more expensive.

 

[AEfx]

Inflation is a.good part of the spike post covid. The surge was pent up demand financed by stimmy money. The.latter stages of peak demand is because of the inflation caused by stimmy money.

I have to push back on that idea a bit.

I think there is a wildly inflated (no pun intended) idea of how far the stimulus money that individuals got went.

There were 3 stimulus payments, the last one was in March of 2021. If you add up all 3 of them, the total the average family got would basically just cover the cost of a week at Disney. If they saved all of them and then spent every cent of it on a vacation. I believe if you look at the data, you'll find that most people who found this to be "extra" money, and didn't actually have to use it to survive, used it to pay off debt, not go on vacation.

The people that got enhanced unemployment were...unemployed, and use the funds to pay for a roof over their head, keeping their cars, feeding their families, and so on.

That said, even if we assume that some of those people in fact did use it to go to Disney in 2021/22, it certainly didn't have any impact on consumer spending much beyond that.

The huge inflation that followed wasn't due to people getting a couple grand three plus years ago - it's largely manufactured by corporations who are driving prices up and...surprise surprise, making record profits. That's not inflation, it's corporate greed. Which then makes folks go, "oh look, the economy is doing great - look at how much Wall Street is making!" and trying to erase how much everyone else is hurting.

The long ago, little bit of stimulus money people got has become mythical at this point - this scapegoat people want us to believe somehow destroyed our economy, so they don't place the blame on the continued decimation of the middle class on the true corporate vampires sucking all the money out of our pockets.

 

[Lilofan]

So instead, the Mouse continues the game of chicken with the customers continuing to hope they blink first?

Everyday needs like food, gas, housing or a non-essential item like and overpriced vacation destination.

My money is on Disney eventually having to capitulate at some point. Their timeline is up against some headwinds like inflation which isn’t going to end anytime soon.

Some will continue to go up to their eyeballs in credit card debt. a earlier in the year , credit card debt was 1 Trillion dollars.

 

[Dranth]

The.latter stages of peak demand is because of the inflation caused by stimmy money.

Most of that money was gone pretty quickly. We also have plenty of examples of a LOT more money than that being handed out in quantitative easement or even direct corporate bailouts that didn't cause any real change in inflation.

Inflation was driven by scarcity coming out of the pandemic. Corporations then took they opportunity to drive up prices FAR beyond their increased costs. You can see record profit margin after record profit margin being reported during earnings calls around that time and the only way a company increases their margins when costs go up is if they raise the price more than covering the cost.

 

[Lilofan]

I have to push back on that idea a bit.

I think there is a wildly inflated (no pun intended) idea of how far the stimulus money that individuals got went.

There were 3 stimulus payments, the last one was in March of 2021. If you add up all 3 of them, the total the average family got would basically just cover the cost of a week at Disney. If they saved all of them and then spent every cent of it on a vacation. I believe if you look at the data, you'll find that most people who found this to be "extra" money, and didn't actually have to use it to survive, used it to pay off debt, not go on vacation.

The people that got enhanced unemployment were...unemployed, and use the funds to pay for a roof over their head, keeping their cars, feeding their families, and so on.

That said, even if we assume that some of those people in fact did use it to go to Disney in 2021/22, it certainly didn't have any impact on consumer spending much beyond that.

The huge inflation that followed wasn't due to people getting a couple grand three plus years ago - it's largely manufactured by corporations who are driving prices up and...surprise surprise, making record profits. That's not inflation, it's corporate greed. Which then makes folks go, "oh look, the economy is doing great - look at how much Wall Street is making!" and trying to erase how much everyone else is hurting.

The long ago, little bit of stimulus money people got has become mythical at this point - this scapegoat people want us to believe somehow destroyed our economy, so they don't place the blame on the continued decimation of the middle class on the true corporate vampires sucking all the money out of our pockets.

Stimulus money does help like it did for me and my family in Feb 2008. I did not support the economy but instead with the checks we paid down our debt. What a concept for some! Thanks stimulus checks!

 

[erasure fan1]

I'm still bothered about the seafood buffet dinner at Yacht and Beach. We had a great feast including crab legs years ago. Now crab legs is an extra charge. What the heck?

You and me both. $30 bucks extra for a pound of grocery store quality crap legs? No thanks.

 

[easyrowrdw]

I am not one to gage the crowd based on queue wait times. I base my view of the crowd based on how comfortable I am walking around the parks. In my opinion, the 'in' season over the past year has been around RunDisney events. That is when the parks have been crowded in my eyes.

When I hear someone mention main street and the hub during fireworks, I think of the parties -- folks how go for the unique events feel the event is oversold, those going to ride rides say they got a lot done.

I tend to visit the parks to walk around and or take pictures. I know I can make a small crowd look big and I can make a big crowd look small based on where I focus the lense. I know the pics I am about to show are from the afternoon when folks will go back to the resort to take a break from the heat.

Over to the MK on 6/17/24 noon:

View attachment 793667

one hour later:

View attachment 793668

This is interesting, as it seemed more crowded to me at MK on the 17th than it had the previous days. I don't mean that as an argument or anything. I think sometimes it almost doesn't matter how crowded it actually is; we might all just feel differently about it anyway.

 

[Laketravis]

You and me both. $30 bucks extra for a pound of grocery store quality crap legs? No thanks.

My response every time they ask if we want to add crab legs is "Are they still charging extra for that? They use to be included" and every time I get a look of exasperation - I know they are required to ask but they seldom have any takers.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for Outer Rim to replenish their stock of chocolate straws for their chocolate martini as pictured on the menu. They've "run out of them" for several years now.

 

[Trauma]

Same here. I've actually enjoyed our last three visits (December, February, April) because it was less congested compared to years past. Felt comfortable, as you said. Plenty of room on all the transportation options, few people at the resort pool and always able to get a table with an umbrella, and plenty of empty QS/TS tables when we decided to eat. Even just walking around was enjoyable.

The frustration (prompting the feelings of "crowded"?) came when not being able to procure a spot in VQ seconds after 7am, disproportionately high posted standby times, ride breakdowns, etc.

While our last three visits seemed to have the lowest crowd levels of any of our past visits in the last 20 years, the visits themselves were much less productive in terms of what we were able to accomplish each day. Yet obviously much more expensive.

So just to be clear you enjoy your visits more when it’s more expensive and less productive.

The key for you is that walking around is enjoyable and plenty of empty tables to eat at.

That sum it up ?

 

[Laketravis]

So just to be clear you enjoy your visits more when it’s more expensive and less productive.

The key for you is that walking around is enjoyable and plenty of empty tables to eat at.

That sum it up ?

Not even close.

For starters, I didn't say I enjoyed them more. My point was I enjoyed the comfort level of less crowds but at the expense of not accomplishing much and paying more.

Straw man fail.

 

[Trauma]

Not even close.

For starters, I didn't say I enjoyed them more. My point was I enjoyed the comfort level of less crowds but at the expense of not accomplishing much and paying more.

Straw man fail.

It’s not a gotcha I’m trying to understand your post.

Did you enjoy it more or less than in the past ?

 

[Laketravis]

It’s not a gotcha I’m trying to understand your post.

Did you enjoy it more or less than in the past ?

I enjoyed not having crowds. I didn't enjoy accomplishing less and spending more.

I enjoyed past trips because we accomplished more and experienced higher quality at a lower cost but at the expense of more crowded conditions.

You are asking if, in the aggregate, I enjoyed the recent trips more than past trips and the answer to that would be no.

 

[Nubs70]

I enjoyed not having crowds. I didn't enjoy accomplishing less and spending more.

I enjoyed past trips because we accomplished more and experienced higher quality at a lower cost but at the expense of more crowded conditions.

You are asking if, in the aggregate, I enjoyed the recent trips more than past trips and the answer to that would be no.

Would you say your last trip met your minimum value expectation?

 

[Laketravis]

Would you say your last trip met your minimum value expectation?

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, absolutely not. In fact, I face constant reminders on a daily basis how the value has been minimized or eliminated. From an Uber instead of MDE to every other day housekeeping to reduced park hours to lack of FP's in my pocket to $10 for a friggin' pretzel and $15 for a chocolate martini without the chocolate straw to a seafood buffet where seafood is an additional cost, the list goes on and on..........then throw Genie, VQ, and LL on top of those wounds and it stings pretty bad.

I would offer that I felt like, overall, I beat the house with a cheap nightly rate at ASM, airfare paid with points, and only one night at Yachtsman's for dinner - the rest were either Cape May or Whispering Canyon or Instacart. Our AP's are a sunk cost. So there's that rationalization that shouldn't even be required to begin with.

On the bright side? It wasn't crowded

 

[CntrlFlPete]

This is interesting, as it seemed more crowded to me at MK on the 17th than it had the previous days. I don't mean that as an argument or anything. I think sometimes it almost doesn't matter how crowded it actually is; we might all just feel differently about it anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if the interwebs had a rule 'do not visit MK on a Monday'!

 

[Vacationeer]

Other things that helped drive the high travel demand 22/23 were previously skipped vacations, families that saved money working from home and not going out much in 20/21, and home equities shooting up. People were so excited to finally get back to real life, many with excess money and a splurge mentality. WDW was a beneficiary and I think that all had more to do with higher per capita spending than any specific thing Disney did during that time.

 

[James Alucobond]

For me, the value of my pre-COVID 2020 trip felt way worse than the value of my 2023 trip. It felt more crowded and I got way less done. In 2020, EPCOT was a navigational nightmare, Flight of Passage had 3-hour lines, Rise was stupidly complicated to get a pass for, altering dining reservations was impossible, etc. Also, as someone who engaged as minimally as possible with FP+ and not at all with Genie+, a Genie-less trip is much more manageable than a FastPass-less trip. Oh, and early entry + extra evening hours is massively superior to Extra Magic Hours, IMO.

 

[Laketravis]

For me, the value of my pre-COVID 2020 trip felt way worse than the value of my 2023 trip. It felt more crowded and I got way less done. In 2020, EPCOT was a navigational nightmare, Flight of Passage had 3-hour lines, Rise was stupidly complicated to get a pass for, altering dining reservations was impossible, etc. Also, as someone who engaged as minimally as possible with FP+ and not at all with Genie+, a Genie-less trip is much more manageable than a FastPass-less trip. Oh, and early entry + extra evening hours is massively superior to Extra Magic Hours, IMO.

I agree, that slice of time was probably the worse ever. 2010 was by far the best trip ever for me, I think it was the apex of the Quality/Reasonable Price curve. By 2015 it was starting to go downhill and by 2020 they are lucky they had Covid to blame for the next couple of years. I had become very adept at FP and FP+ (was even a beta tester at one point) but even then I can remember walking on SM or EE 3 or 4 times in a row early mornings with my son before having to rely on FP's.

I refuse to pay for Genie+ or LL.

 

[allanbarr]

I'm still bothered about the seafood buffet dinner at Yacht and Beach. We had a great feast including crab legs years ago. Now crab legs is an extra charge. What the heck?

Awww… is that the Cape May Buffet? After eating there one summer evening in July back in the 19-somethings I got engaged. Not in the rose garden like I had planned, because you know, Florida summer thunderstorms and all, but on a bench in some obscure intersection of guest room hallways. It worked out though. We’re celebrating 28 years. Tomorrow actually.

 

[nestface84]

How accurate are waiting times on the app? Sometimes see a lot of 70mins 90mins. I’m from uk so don’t mind waiting 1hr for a ride. Just wandering if following an app for wait time is the best thing?