Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[PREMiERdrum]

This feels like a good time to clarify:

While I'm not what you'd call a pixieduster, I'm 100% *not* a doom-and-gloomer. I've been to the resort probably 60+ times in my 38 years on earth. I have a tattoo of the original Horizons pavilion logo. I love classic EPCOT, and I love a lot of the recent additions across the resort.

I started selling as a Disney travel agent more than a decade ago, and was selling $125,000+ annually on my own by year 3. In the early days of the pandemic, I bought out the agency I was selling under and now oversee 15 agents selling as a part of my organization: From New Jersey, to Ohio, to Florida, to Nebraska.

From a business perspective - as someone who has plenty of my own value tied up in the mouse - things are not well specifically at WDW. Hotel occupancy at historic lows delivers a huge blow to per-guest spending, even if they're able to compensate with gate clicks from offsite guests at the parks. Iger's entire strategy for the resort delivered some short-term gains at the expense of long-term stability. Couple that with the creative bankruptcy at WDI and we're left with a perfect storm: Empty hotel rooms, underdeveloped parks, transparent nickel-and-diming everywhere the guest turns, and Wall Street soon to come calling.

And, FWIW, I'll be at Yacht Club on Veterans Day weekend to celebrate my birthday at Food & Wine. Happy to grab a drink and talk shop... glares from my wife tossed in at no extra charge!

 

[JusticeDisney]

I also don’t think Disney’s low crowds are related to the product. The parks are still amazing if you do them right. Could there be improvement? Yes, but Disney is still special. I think the current inflation is making the crazy price increases the last few years seem much more dramatic. A Disney vacation has always felt expensive, but because everything else right now is so expensive (food, gas, interest rates) it seems much more out of reach.

Yup. Universal has also been much slower than usual, but the WDW haters on this board don’t want you to think about that.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It’s hard to understand that we are being told on a Disney fan site, a freaking Disney Fan site, that if we dare to still like Disney, we have our heads in the sand. Amazing. And lame.

Who said that?

 

[JusticeDisney]

This feels like a good time to clarify:

While I'm not what you'd call a pixieduster, I'm 100% *not* a doom-and-gloomer. I've been to the resort probably 60+ times in my 38 years on earth. I have a tattoo of the original Horizons pavilion logo. I love classic EPCOT, and I love a lot of the recent additions across the resort.

I started selling as a Disney travel agent more than a decade ago, and was selling $125,000+ annually on my own by year 3. In the early days of the pandemic, I bought out the agency I was selling under and now oversee 15 agents selling as a part of my organization: From New Jersey, to Ohio, to Florida, to Nebraska.

From a business perspective - as someone who has plenty of my own value tied up in the mouse - things are not well specifically at WDW. Hotel occupancy at historic lows delivers a huge blow to per-guest spending, even if they're able to compensate with gate clicks from offsite guests at the parks. Iger's entire strategy for the resort delivered some short-term gains at the expense of long-term stability. Couple that with the creative bankruptcy at WDI and we're left with a perfect storm: Empty hotel rooms, underdeveloped parks, transparent nickel-and-diming everywhere the guest turns, and Wall Street soon to come calling.

And, FWIW, I'll be at Yacht Club on Veterans Day weekend to celebrate my birthday at Food & Wine. Happy to grab a drink and talk shop... glares from my wife tossed in at no extra charge!

Great post. And the last line made me laugh out loud!

 

[JusticeDisney]

Who said that?

@Jrb1979 in this very thread.

Any other questions?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This feels like a good time to clarify:

While I'm not what you'd call a pixieduster, I'm 100% *not* a doom-and-gloomer. I've been to the resort probably 60+ times in my 38 years on earth. I have a tattoo of the original Horizons pavilion logo. I love classic EPCOT, and I love a lot of the recent additions across the resort.

I started selling as a Disney travel agent more than a decade ago, and was selling $125,000+ annually on my own by year 3. In the early days of the pandemic, I bought out the agency I was selling under and now oversee 15 agents selling as a part of my organization: From New Jersey, to Ohio, to Florida, to Nebraska.

From a business perspective - as someone who has plenty of my own value tied up in the mouse - things are not well specifically at WDW. Hotel occupancy at historic lows delivers a huge blow to per-guest spending, even if they're able to compensate with gate clicks from offsite guests at the parks. Iger's entire strategy for the resort delivered some short-term gains at the expense of long-term stability. Couple that with the creative bankruptcy at WDI and we're left with a perfect storm: Empty hotel rooms, underdeveloped parks, transparent nickel-and-diming everywhere the guest turns, and Wall Street soon to come calling.

And, FWIW, I'll be at Yacht Club on Veterans Day weekend to celebrate my birthday at Food & Wine. Happy to grab a drink and talk shop... glares from my wife tossed in at no extra charge!

…oh what would you know?!?

That’s just your OPINION. The same 5 people will be along to talk about how magical it is and how people are lining up….

…there’s literally a poster on here who’s business is literally tracking crowds who gets questioned on the crowds being lower. Happened this week on another thread.

 

[JusticeDisney]

…oh what would you know?!?

That’s just your OPINION. The same 5 people will be along to talk about how magical it is and how people are lining up….

…there’s literally a poster on here who’s business is literally tracking crowds who gets questioned on the crowds being lower. Happened this week on another thread.

So what else have you been hearing? Come on, share that insider information with us!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

@Jrb1979 in this very thread.

Any other questions?

Yes…

Anyone who doesn’t compare cedar point to Disney parks on a 1:1 scale

I love him…but twisted metal isn’t the proper frame of reference. We love our Canadians though

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So what else have you been hearing? Come on, share that insider information with us!

Who said “insider”?

Use small words to explain

 

[JusticeDisney]

Yes…

Anyone who doesn’t compare cedar point to Disney parks on a 1:1 scale

I love him…but twisted metal isn’t the proper frame of reference. We love our Canadians though

Me thinks you might not know what a question is.

Anyway, you gonna share with us what else you have been hearing? Or are you just gonna keep all that killer inside info to yourself? BTW, those were questions.

 

[JusticeDisney]

Who said “insider”?

Use small words to explain

Come on, please don’t make us beg you to share what you have been hearing! Info like that is why we are all here!

 

[Trauma]

Come on, please don’t make us beg you to share what you have been hearing! Info like that is why we are all here!

I have only seen Walter share his personal experiences. I have never seen him claim to be an insider.

I don’t understand your obsession with this constant badgering, but if it must continue can you keep it grounded in reality ?

 

[JusticeDisney]

I have only seen Walter share his personal experiences. I have never seen him claim to be an insider.

I don’t understand your obsession with this constant badgering, but if it must continue can you keep it grounded in reality ?

The fact that you are defending this guy and in the same breath complaining about badgering says all we need to know. He literally argues day and night with anyone and everyone in just about every thread on this board. Not for nothing but you might want to heed your own advice about being grounded in reality.

 

[fgmnt]

I also don’t think Disney’s low crowds are related to the product. The parks are still amazing if you do them right. Could there be improvement? Yes, but Disney is still special. I think the current inflation is making the crazy price increases the last few years seem much more dramatic. A Disney vacation has always felt expensive, but because everything else right now is so expensive (food, gas, interest rates) it seems much more out of reach.

There are a lot of reasons attendance and occupancy are down and this is probably the largest reason. If you were to poll everyone who has ever been to the resort or planned but never followed through on a trip to the resort, vague senses of post-pandemic inflation is probably the top reason. I'll even be fair that you can quantify some percentage of the population resistant because of the political environment in Florida (probably ranks near the bottom). But a complete lack of meaningful new attractions and it feeling "not worth it" aside from inflation definitely sit somewhere in the middle.

 

[JusticeDisney]

There are a lot of reasons attendance and occupancy are down and this is probably the largest reason. If you were to poll everyone who has ever been to the resort or planned but never followed through on a trip to the resort, vague senses of post-pandemic inflation is probably the top reason. I'll even be fair that you can quantify some percentage of the population resistant because of the political environment in Florida (probably ranks near the bottom). But a complete lack of meaningful new attractions and it feeling "not worth it" aside from inflation definitely sit somewhere in the middle.

You make very fair points. But you have to keep in mind that your claim of “a complete lack of meaningful new attractions” is purely subjective. I have no doubt that there are people who share your view, and they are more than entitled to feel that way. That said, there are also plenty of others who really enjoy the relatively newer attractions like Rise, Guardians, and Tron, to name a few. It’s totally subjective both ways. Just something to be mindful of.

 

[fgmnt]

You make very fair points. But you have to keep in mind that your claim of “a complete lack of meaningful new attractions” is purely subjective. I have no doubt that there are people who share your view, and they are more than entitled to feel that way. That said, there are also plenty of others who really enjoy the relatively newer attractions like Rise, Guardians, and Tron, to name a few. It’s totally subjective both ways. Just something to be mindful of.

I think those are meaningful attractions (if way too expensive--this is not something a member of the general public would really connect on anyway) but let's say you visited last in late 2021/early 2022 and your visit before that was before the onset of the pandemic: Tron is probably not moving the needle on a return trip for you when you shelled out a lot of money and experienced multiple new attractions in every other park, especially if you are a younger family or an early retiree.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

There are a lot of reasons attendance and occupancy are down and this is probably the largest reason. If you were to poll everyone who has ever been to the resort or planned but never followed through on a trip to the resort, vague senses of post-pandemic inflation is probably the top reason. I'll even be fair that you can quantify some percentage of the population resistant because of the political environment in Florida (probably ranks near the bottom). But a complete lack of meaningful new attractions and it feeling "not worth it" aside from inflation definitely sit somewhere in the middle.

This has been discussed a lot on these types of threads…
Corporations got really greedy at the trough with the Covid financial policies. And as expected: can’t control themselves.

The press said “inflation! Inflation!” For 3 years as if it’s some kind of mystical power power deep in the universe…but it’s just greed motivated price gouging under “disaster” cover. One of my favorite books of all time is Naomi Klein’s “the shock doctrine”…this period has been textbook. Excellent read.

There have been some good commentary recently about US families living paycheck to paycheck in the $125-175,000 range in expanding/alarming Numbers…
…this could explain a lot of the business downtown in Orlando.

But the two big operators are not “victims”…it’s their duty to not overpromise/overprice their products and adjust when they see it on their forecasts…typically 12-18 months out. They have failed.

As much as 2020 was not their fault…2023/2024/etc? Is absolutely their fault.

Tough job…but they get paid a lot to do it…currently at the stockholders loss.

 

[JusticeDisney]

I think those are meaningful attractions (if way too expensive--this is not something a member of the general public would really connect on anyway) but let's say you visited last in late 2021/early 2022 and your visit before that was before the onset of the pandemic: Tron is probably not moving the needle on a return trip for you when you shelled out a lot of money and experienced multiple new attractions in every other park, especially if you are a younger family or an early retiree.

I totally agree with you. Really good points.

 

[JusticeDisney]

This has been discussed a lot on these types of threads…
Corporations got really greedy at the trough with the Covid financial policies. And as expected: can’t control themselves.

The press said “inflation! Inflation!” For 3 years as if it’s some kind of mystical power power deep in the universe…but it’s just greed motivated price gouging under “disaster” cover. One of my favorite books of all time is Naomi Klein’s “the shock doctrine”…this period has been textbook. Excellent read.

There have been some good commentary recently about US families living paycheck to paycheck in the $125-175,000 range in expanding/alarming Numbers…
…this could explain a lot of the business downtown in Orlando.

But the two big operators are not “victims”…it’s their duty to not overpromise/overprice their products and adjust when they see it on their forecasts…typically 12-18 months out. They have failed.

As much as 2020 was not their fault…2023/2024/etc? Is absolutely their fault.

Tough job…but they get paid a lot to do it…currently at the stockholders loss.

In all seriousness, great post. Very well said.

 

[Jrb1979]

It’s hard to understand that we are being told on a Disney fan site, a freaking Disney Fan site, that if we dare to still like Disney, we have our heads in the sand. Amazing. And lame.

It had nothing to do with liking Disney. My comment about Heads in the sand was to do with dismissing the fact attendance is down. WDW is more than just parks. It was posted in this thread they are at a 21 year low.