DreamfinderFigmentFan
Member
I uploaded the original soundtrack to YouTube:
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Imagineer Tom Fitzgerald takes over the creative direction of Epcot
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
sshindel
The Epcot Manifesto
I would agree with this if we were discussing any other park aside from Epcot. Epcot was more than just a theme park. It has a purpose. Yes, I agree that we should be able to have a good time at Epcot and not be bored, but stripping it of it's purpose is exactly what lead us to the state of the park that we have today.
It's like saying I wouldn't care if Seaworld removed all references to animals and just put out fun rides and roller-coasters. It's changed the purpose of the park at that point. I may not be bored, but I'm not really at Seaworld anymore either.
Epcot once had a larger mission than just being a theme park. It should always strive to be that.
Texas84
Well-Known Member
You're 98% right about Japan. But merchandising is an overall WDW problem. I want to spend money and can't find anything I want.
Texas84
Well-Known Member
It was a joke. Sort of. I'm actually suggesting to put anything else in there, old or new. No, I'm begging!
gostone23
Member
Whew...27 pages...
I hope this Tom Fitzgerald person does make positive changes. He does need to unify the themes for FW and WS while maintaining that Disney optimism. Don't bring back the old rides just the old theme.
For FW: Again, I want the optimism about the future and what technology can bring and help us with. How we use Imagination and ingenuity to overcome issues. I think they just need to update the existing rides with modern technology. Bring back the education aspect that has been removed form a lot of the rides and update them reflecting modern tech. EX. Hydroponic gardening has been used for decades now ... what's really new in gardening ... What tech is going to help us make food for every one in 50 years? In light of climate change a weather pavilion sounds great. Sure, get Neil deGrasse-Tyson to be involved in The Whirling Vomitorium(AKA M:S) - put a feed to a satellite or giant telescope in the there so we can see live astronomy. Re-imagine JII ... I love the idea of JII as a look at whats new from the imagineers ...of course using Figment to guide us. There is so much they can do to fix it ... it just has to go back to the theme of EPCOT.
For WS: I want that sense of the world as one big community. Express more of the cultures of each pavilion. What makes China ... China or Italy...Italy? I feel like the merchandise and food in the pavilions is stuff I can get anywhere ... not authentic local cuisine or products used in the individual countries. Inject more of each countries customs and personalities into the pavilion. And add more Countries for crying out load!! I love the IASW idea ... move it to world showcase. It fits perfectly. Setup a a mini World's fair near it with revolving countries. Express how we are a global community in WS!
Characters or no characters ...doesn't matter if the core EPCOT CENTER feeling is captured. I'm not a huge fan of Donald's intrusion into the Mexico pavilion (I adored el Rio Del Tiempo) but it's not miserable. I would think that it could've been done more respectfully rather than making it just a big joke.
I think they could figure out how to use there existing Characters to impart the overall EPCOT Center mission statement with dumbing everything down.
So come on Tom Fitzgerald, you have our attention. We all agree EPCOT has been in decline for way too many years. We're waiting... We love this park and want it to be great again.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
-Robert
ps. What's the chances of getting Tom Fitzgerald's view on what needs to happen or bending his ear on our thoughts. I'd love to see him pop on WDWMagic and comment... That would be brilliant. I'm sure he's too busy.
I hope this Tom Fitzgerald person does make positive changes. He does need to unify the themes for FW and WS while maintaining that Disney optimism. Don't bring back the old rides just the old theme.
For FW: Again, I want the optimism about the future and what technology can bring and help us with. How we use Imagination and ingenuity to overcome issues. I think they just need to update the existing rides with modern technology. Bring back the education aspect that has been removed form a lot of the rides and update them reflecting modern tech. EX. Hydroponic gardening has been used for decades now ... what's really new in gardening ... What tech is going to help us make food for every one in 50 years? In light of climate change a weather pavilion sounds great. Sure, get Neil deGrasse-Tyson to be involved in The Whirling Vomitorium(AKA M:S) - put a feed to a satellite or giant telescope in the there so we can see live astronomy. Re-imagine JII ... I love the idea of JII as a look at whats new from the imagineers ...of course using Figment to guide us. There is so much they can do to fix it ... it just has to go back to the theme of EPCOT.
For WS: I want that sense of the world as one big community. Express more of the cultures of each pavilion. What makes China ... China or Italy...Italy? I feel like the merchandise and food in the pavilions is stuff I can get anywhere ... not authentic local cuisine or products used in the individual countries. Inject more of each countries customs and personalities into the pavilion. And add more Countries for crying out load!! I love the IASW idea ... move it to world showcase. It fits perfectly. Setup a a mini World's fair near it with revolving countries. Express how we are a global community in WS!
Characters or no characters ...doesn't matter if the core EPCOT CENTER feeling is captured. I'm not a huge fan of Donald's intrusion into the Mexico pavilion (I adored el Rio Del Tiempo) but it's not miserable. I would think that it could've been done more respectfully rather than making it just a big joke.
I think they could figure out how to use there existing Characters to impart the overall EPCOT Center mission statement with dumbing everything down.
So come on Tom Fitzgerald, you have our attention. We all agree EPCOT has been in decline for way too many years. We're waiting... We love this park and want it to be great again.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
-Robert
ps. What's the chances of getting Tom Fitzgerald's view on what needs to happen or bending his ear on our thoughts. I'd love to see him pop on WDWMagic and comment... That would be brilliant. I'm sure he's too busy.
Kman101
Well-Known Member
Hopefully at some point we get some insider knowledge on what, if anything, he has planned. He can have all the ideas in the world but it's getting the money that concerns me. I know many will say screens and politics to dismiss him, but I say give him a chance. At least we are hearing of someone wanting to have a vision for Epcot. Now exactly what that vision may be, we'll have to see.
Rodan75
Well-Known Member
It isn't revisionist, if that is indeed what happened. I love original EPCOT and I'm sad to see it in the state it is currently, and while it may not have been a failure, it certainly wasn't an unabashed success.
Rodan75
Well-Known Member
Cannot agree more.
CDavid
Well-Known Member
Except that is not the way things happened. Epcot has never had an attendance problem of the extent claimed; In fact, attendance was higher during the 1990's, with more of the original attractions still intact, than it was after the millenium with the new Imagination, Test Track, and Mission Space. Years 1996 to 2010 are from the Orlando United forum, years 1990 to 1995 and 2011-2012 are from Eric M. Davis at Micechat:
2012: 11.063,000
2011: 10,825,000
2010: 10,830,000
2009: 10,990,000
2008: 10,935,000
2007: 10,900,000
2006: 10,460,000
2005: 9,900,000
2004: 9,400,000
2003: 8,600,000
2002: 8,300,000
2001: 9,000,000
2000: 10,600,000
1999: 10,100,000
1998: 10,600,000
1997: 11,800,00
1996: 11,200,00
1995: 10,700,000
1994: 9,700,000
1993: 10,000,000
1992: 10,000,000
1991: 14.400,000
http://www.orlandounited.com/forums/showthread.php/6733-The-Attendance-Problem-at-Epcot
After Epcot debuted in 1982, Walt Disney World as a whole saw a boost of about 10 million persons annually (numbers I found were not broken down separately), an attendance figure reasonably consistent with the numbers a decade later. From the Orlando Sentinel:
Walt Disney World attendance
1988: 25.2 million
1986: 23.9
1985: 21.6
1984: 21.1
1983: 22.7
1982: 12.6
1981: 13.2
1980: 13.8
1979: 13.8
1978: 14.1
1977: 13.1
1976: 13.1
1975: 12.5
1974: 10.8
1973: 11.6
1972: 10.7
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...180065_1_walt-disney-magic-kingdom-attendance
A second Sentinel article revealed 25.2 million for 1988, the last year attendance would not have been divided among three or more parks. Even if the Magic Kingdom took took the bigger share of the numbers, Epcot simply was never hurting in popularity the way it is often - and erroneously - portrayed. That's nothing but spin and, indeed, revisionist history.
Of course, that doesn't mean Epcot is now or has ever operated as close to capacity as the Magic Kingdom. Nor does it mean the park can't - and should - be producing higher attendance numbers. Point is, original Epcot and its roster of thought-provoking, grand-scale omnimover attractions were a resounding success. At least until they grew stale, that is, and Disney took the easy, cheaper, lazy solution of substituting thrill rides and dumbed-down experiences within a park which was supposed to represent something very different.
Edit - attendance numbers (either total WDW or just Epcot) are now complete except for 1987 and 1989. Again, attendance during the late 80's and early 90's - with the original slate of Epcot attractions - was actually higher than it was after 2000, and certainly does not appear to support the claim that the park was unpopular or lacking in visitors.
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Rodan75
Well-Known Member
I don't think it is a mistake that the late 80's thru early 90's are missing. But regardless, EPCOT never lived up to its capacity or it's purpose. Even the good ole days weren't what they needed to be.
Folks can blame politics all they want, but when the sales didn't add up EPCOT declined by degrees. There is so much missed opportunity with Epcot (and DHS and AK).
At best we are looking at a world's fair with characters and thrill rides and a world showcase with Frozen and a Rat, at worse...well SSE looks a lot like the Death Star, and if TWDC is seriously looking at turning DLR Tomorrowland into Star Wars land, then Future world looks pretty attractive...they just need to reconcile the world showcase.
Why build out a new land at DHS when you could just refurb the pavilions at Epcot.
Rodan75
Well-Known Member
And I'm not saying that EPCOT was a creative failure or that it didn't deliver on the Edutainment, I'm saying it didn't do enough pure business to capitalize on the parks capacity and staffing. That invites corporate meddling and the state of Epcot today.
Hopefully they will find a creative solution, but I think it is safe to say we will get a derivative solution with some combination of IP from around TWDC.
Hopefully they will find a creative solution, but I think it is safe to say we will get a derivative solution with some combination of IP from around TWDC.
CDavid
Well-Known Member
The attendance numbers for 1987 and 1989-1995 weren't omitted on purpose or to hide something if that's what you're implying. I don't have those figures (anyone here that does ???) and my search didn't uncover them in the time I had. If I learn more, I'll edit, but unless the numbers are broken out by park they aren't going to tell us as much after the addition of the third gate. Regardless, it is a bit hard to believe the park would have significantly faltered so soon after the additions of Wonders of Life and Norway, yet recovered by 1996 before most of the major pavilion changes got underway.
It should also be noted that Disney does not release official attendance statistics, and what we have to work with are estimates.
RandySavage
Well-Known Member
Even with its huge cost to build, EPCOT Center was still considered an unabashed success from the outset, as shown by CDavid and described in the old annual reports. But what mattered even more than turnstile clicks was the ripple effect it had on length-of-stay and hotel occupancy and development at WDW. In this correlated light (hotel revenue) EPCOT's positive financial impact on the parks & resorts division was enormous. The idea that it was a failed or middling project is re-writing history.
MGM was seen as a financial coup for Eisner because - for a fraction of the cost of EPCOT - it added to the ripple effect - another night or two to average guest stays. DAK did not have the same impact of extending stays but began to poach days from other parks, including EPCOT, which may correlate to the dip seen in '98.
MGM was seen as a financial coup for Eisner because - for a fraction of the cost of EPCOT - it added to the ripple effect - another night or two to average guest stays. DAK did not have the same impact of extending stays but began to poach days from other parks, including EPCOT, which may correlate to the dip seen in '98.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
I've never understood why the EPCOT Center got the blame for the continued failures at the Studio, except maybe that it could be argued that it diverted attention from more "legitimate" entertainment.
asianway
Well-Known Member
Merf just put some numbers out tonight. Maybe he's reading
yellowrocket
Active Member
Regardless of actual park numbers, attendance of the attractions suffered during those years. Horizons and (original) Journey into Imagination were empty during Spring Break/Easter 1997. Meanwhile, down the monorail beam, the queue was 200 minutes for Splash Mountain. I know the original EPCOT Center attractions were people eaters, but there was no one waiting (or riding) these rides that year. I remember, because it hurt my feelings because I had such a fondness for them - and this was with Test Track still under construction (actually it already started it's 2-year long testing, I believe). With World of Motion already demolished, the writing was on the wall for the original pavilions.
BTW, someone mentioned a rotating World's Fair in WS. That was one of the beauties of Millennium Village during the Millennium Celebration. They should have kept it like that, as a sort of WS version of a Innoventions/Communicore pavilion, with set of temporary countries that rotate out (I think a few countries rotated during the Millennium. They could serve food/wine when the festivals weren't going and almost use it as a minor league/farm team for main World Showcase - if a country does well in Millennium Village, then maybe it should deserve a full pavilion in the park. Anyway...
BTW, someone mentioned a rotating World's Fair in WS. That was one of the beauties of Millennium Village during the Millennium Celebration. They should have kept it like that, as a sort of WS version of a Innoventions/Communicore pavilion, with set of temporary countries that rotate out (I think a few countries rotated during the Millennium. They could serve food/wine when the festivals weren't going and almost use it as a minor league/farm team for main World Showcase - if a country does well in Millennium Village, then maybe it should deserve a full pavilion in the park. Anyway...
Kman101
Well-Known Member
It's been stated many times that guests were basically encouraged not to ride Figment and rerouted in an effort to hurt attendance numbers. There were politics at play. Horizons was reportedly kept in very poor shape. And was closed and opened on and off. I guess we'll probably never really know. Not saying they weren't maybe a bit dated at the time ... but still. The awful version sans Figment (mostly, and he was literally shooed away at the end) debuted in 1999. Coincidence?
Kman101
Well-Known Member
Found this old thread. Worth a read: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/look-how-crowded-future-world-used-to-be.875245/
DreamfinderFigmentFan
Member
I edited and uploaded this. Thought this might be funny for the fans:
aladdin2007
Well-Known Member
That was the original plan, using it as a testing phase to speak and lure countries to try it out and then possibly wanting a whole pavilion. I believe this is what Disney was hoping for with Scotland at the time, and a second try with Denmark. It would have been a way to court nations interest etc.