If monorail expansion is too expensive, why not peoplemover?

[PeterAlt]

This is true of all tracked Mass Transit. IF Disney were to add a new line the latest features in a Bombardier Monorail besides being automated (less labor) feature a front automatic coupler, enabling one train to pull another. Another feature in the latest Bombardier Monorails are crossover switches as seen in Las Vegas to move between tracks.

Picture showing the new coupler design on a Bombardier INNOVIA 300:

Las Vegas Crossover Switch:

Here is the interior - a walk thru design:

Oh and I almost forgot, Sao Paulo, Brazil is building two monorail lines, both under construction - NOW.

I really don't like the physical restrains of the monorail switch and the track itself. Peoplemover and PRT are free from such physical restraints, as their tracks are simply a paved sidewalk-sized guideway and no physical switch. Stations are off-line, allowing cars that are not stopping there to continue on its route without waiting for the cars in front to unload.

You should check out the only PRT system built in the US at Morgantown, WV. Look it up in Wikipedia and Google it. Also, they are building an underground PRT system in a new development in Abu Dabi that reminds me very much of Walt's original concept for EPCOT.

 

[lt94]

Disney kinda tied it's hands with the current system. The 2 loops are tied together at the ticket center all monorails have to go thru the contmp to go to the maint center behind mk all this would need to be changed or another built for the new system

In the post of this forurm cost was also talked about, the test track post noted GM gave Disney 100 million for ther last contract I think some money could be spent on improvement of a higher tech mode of transportation than
a bus

 

[Timon]

I really don't like the physical restrains of the monorail switch and the track itself. Peoplemover and PRT are free from such physical restraints, as their tracks are simply a paved sidewalk-sized guideway and no physical switch. Stations are off-line, allowing cars that are not stopping there to continue on its route without waiting for the cars in front to unload.

You should check out the only PRT system built in the US at Morgantown, WV. Look it up in Wikipedia and Google it. Also, they are building an underground PRT system in a new development in Abu Dabi that reminds me very much of Walt's original concept for EPCOT.

I like PRT's but generally they make better feeders to main lines which require higher volumes of people. A blend of PRT and buses feeding mainline monorails (or other tracked mass transit) Early plans in LBV had various PRT loops connecting to a central monorail station at Downtown Disney. This seemed to serve local needs as well as longer distance needs. I don't believe there is a single perfect mode of transportation, an integrated blend that plays off the best functions of each type of transport would be better better.

Closeup of Downtown Disney Monorail/PRT/Bus/Boat Service:

Closeup of typical PRT loop - Hotel Plaza:

Disney concept for LBV PRT:

Disney concept for Multimodal Station Monorail/PRT/Taxi/Bus:

West Virgina University PRT:

 

[Timon]

I love it! We're making maps! Keep up the creativity!

You have the right idea, but you have to look at it too from a cost management point of view. Your route meanders too much. Meandering adds more track which equals increased cost. The idea is to cut as much excess track out as possible. More straight tracks and more use of existing right of ways. Also, you can't cut through properties like DHS (unless it designed for it).

I'll make a map and show what I mean using a mix of monorail and peoplemover tracks.

Your right straighter is better and I tried to follow roads/canals/parking lots. My main thought was large sources of people wanting to large destinations. So for example one station in EPCOT resorts (4 hotels) on a line with 6 major destinations AK, DHS, EPCOT, Downtown Disney an 2 water parks is going to be pretty busy.

 

[PeterAlt]

Also, from a developer's point of view, Disney could in theory turn the TTC into a hub for monorails going to the MK, EPCOT Center, and AK. They could build garages, like they did at DL near the TTC and use a small peoplemover system to traverse the garages, TTC monorail stations, and a new mini-theme park/shopping complex on the current MK parking lot.

On my other monorail thread, I posted a link to a map I made a few years ago showing how Disney World could expand the monorail system. When I made it, I considered available rights of way, my TTC central hub concept, the idea that a monorail extension must serve not four major parks, but six eventual parks, while also covering the minor parks, major shopping districts, and the premium hotels... All with as less track as possible as efficiently as possible.

My inspiration for that map was after I studied the WDW Revised Masterplan (which shows the sites for future land use including the fifth and sixth gates and the sites for the smaller gates). When I saw this plan, I noticed a distinct circular symmetrical pattern could be drawn around the six parks. Drawing in the current monorail system, a partial outline of that shape is drawn. When you draw in the rest of the shape, you get the monorail routes I sketched out in my map.
Makes me think that shape was intentional and I might have "read the minds" of the Disney planners who made the Revised Master Plan.

Let me know if I need to repost the link to my map.

Oh, the LBV system you spoke about... Are you talking about Walt's EPCOT or plans made after his unfortunate death?

 

[marni1971]

I love it! We're making maps! Keep up the creativity!

You have the right idea, but you have to look at it too from a cost management point of view. Your route meanders too much. Meandering adds more track which equals increased cost. The idea is to cut as much excess track out as possible. More straight tracks and more use of existing right of ways. Also, you can't cut through properties like DHS (unless it designed for it).

I'll make a map and show what I mean using a mix of monorail and peoplemover tracks.

They have to meander somewhat to follow exising land contours, access from ground etc.

Remember WDWs canal system was built to meander on purpose too make it fit in more, though it was more expensive?

 

[marni1971]

The original proposed LBV transit system:

Using vehicles as Timon posted above.

Also, as part of the CDS the MKIV could be offered as different configurations depending on line requirements:

The only real world WEDWay application from CDS at Houston Airport:

And finally, for now, all the official planned WDW monorail lines planned since 1971 not including EPCOT or Showcase North :

 

[Timon]

Also, from a developer's point of view, Disney could in theory turn the TTC into a hub for monorails going to the MK, EPCOT Center, and AK. They could build garages, like they did at DL near the TTC and use a small peoplemover system to traverse the garages, TTC monorail stations, and a new mini-theme park/shopping complex on the current MK parking lot.

It seems to me EPCOT is more in the center of WDW. If you think of the Epcot Line as a North South line that could be extended to future parks, WWS and Celebration, the Epcot station could be expanded and transfer station for the East West Line added.

Has anyone noticed that the Epcot station looks like Half a station? If the line was expanded the other half could be built for passengers arriving from Southbound trains and the original station only for Northbound trains.

Today:

Other half added:

Marni1971 - Never saw the different config drawing before, very cool. I had a thought about the MK Express loop, where individual automated Monorail cars traveled on their own but at the station a speedramp would be used to load and unload just like an Omnimover. Higher capacity, smother ride flow, same track, new automated cars and speedramps at TTC and MK only. Hmm.

 

[PeterAlt]

It seems to me EPCOT is more in the center of WDW. If you think of the Epcot Line as a North South line that could be extended to future parks, WWS and Celebration, the Epcot station could be expanded and transfer station for the East West Line added.

Has anyone noticed that the Epcot station looks like Half a station? If the line was expanded the other half could be built for passengers arriving from Southbound trains and the original station only for Northbound trains.

Today:

Other half added:

Marni1971 - Never saw the different config drawing before, very cool. I had a thought about the MK Express loop, where individual automated Monorail cars traveled on their own but at the station a speedramp would be used to load and unload just like an Omnimover. Higher capacity, smother ride flow, same track, new automated cars and speedramps at TTC and MK only. Hmm.

If I remember correctly the sites for gates 5 and 6 are located west and south of the MK and north of AK. With that in mind, you can see how the TTC becomes more centerish. Northern center.

 

[Timon]

If I remember correctly the sites for gates 5 and 6 are located west and south of the MK and north of AK. With that in mind, you can see how the TTC becomes more centerish. Northern center.

Those are odd places, west of 7 seas lagoon is really wet swamp and originally designated as another connected lagoon with more hotels. The Disney Dump is also back there with 40 years of construction debris plus a few flattened subs and monorails. The other location of just north of AK is the tree farm and the Sewage Plant. If you ever drive the Western Way Blvd you'll quickly guess why there won't be any guest facilities, that place reeks with foul effluent smells for a 1/2 mile but clears before Flamingo Crossing or Caribbean Beach in the other direction.

Better high an dry buildable locations are just north of WWS and two spots south of 192.

Not to mention I think you have huge wait ahead of you for a 5th gate. Disney could spend decades improving the existing parks without risking attendance cannibalization.

 

[Chaz]

I didn't realize what it took to get monorail built. The foundations and so on are a big and expensive part of building track. I assume that this expense is necessary because the monorail trains are not light weights, so you need all that concrete infrastructure to support it.

Peoplemover systems, on the other hand, are much lighter and probably does not need so much concrete support to keep it elevated. A buildout of small peoplemover routes instead of new monorail track may be the way to go to connect Disney attractions and resorts.

I envision one possible route that starts at the EPCOT Center monorail station, runs behind Living Seas, along Ave of Stars to International Gateway (where there would be a stop), to the front of Disney BoardWalk (where there would be a stop), along the canal to DHS (where there would be a stop).

Routes like this with peoplemovers instead of monorails would cost less to build, connect more "pin-point" areas (because of its smaller size), would be popular for guests because of its convenience and attraction-like appearance, and help with traffic congestion, as well as being environment friendly.

Your thoughts?

Two words: rocket rods. No way they would take that chance again

 

[Philo]

Disney would not charge you to ride the monorail

They do at TDL! It's a bit of a different situation but still...

 

[Timon]

They do at TDL! It's a bit of a different situation but still...

The problem at WDW is once the stations are no longer behind Parking Lot fees or Disney Hotels to pay for part of the Transportation costs the question is how do you get non-Disney guest to pay their share.

One way is for Disney Hotel guests to use their room key and Park guests to use there tickets. Hotel Plaza/Dolphin/Swan Hotels could buy into the service for their guests if they want. Off property guests would have to buy a day pass at the station or on-line before their trip.

 

[marni1971]

More of the problem is TDLs is a resort line. MKs is one half of the method day guests are forced to take.

 

[koryadams]

In Walt's original plan for EPCOT, he did have fast moving people movers that went out to the residential part and go to the middle with all the shops,dinning,work. And that's how people who lived there would travel to work and to the center.

But, I don't know how it would be for WDW...I have thought a lot about this myself and I really don't know what they could do that would be good and make sense...I would be nice to have the monorail go to the other parks though.

 

[PeterAlt]

Here's the link to the map I made years ago. Notice how it does not meander and covers all the most important areas.

http://photoalbums.wdwmagic.com/showphoto.php?photo=5321&size=big&cat=&sort=1

 

[nace888]

One thing that I have noticed that noone else has (to my knowledge), is if you plan to move the TTC to add the other 2-3 monorail lines, there is a problem...

The TTC is just that, a TTC. Keep in mind, I've never been to WDW, but I've heard about the traffic and this and that, and reading what you guys are pointing out, with the addition of what I already know, it would not be a good idea to move the TTC unless you have plans to:

A) Pave more roads (unless there are plenty)
B) Buy quite a few more buses
C) And maybe buy a couple more Parking Lot Trams.

To me, the TTC connects the Buses, Parking Lot Trams, and the Monorails.
If the TTC were to move, you have to be able to support the use of buses and PLT as well. I personally like the little automated 6 passenger cars, but it takes away from the magic, to me...

And alas, to me, building monorail is essentially cheaper... You don't have 2 steel rails which I would think costs more than concrete, and if possible, the monorails would only need a total of 3 more trains... 3 per line, taking away one from each as it is, it might work better than peoplemover. And from what I can tell, the guests like monorails better for the most part, when they are not stuck on them... Just add the new coupling system on the front of the trains, and you might have a solution...

Thoughts?

 

[Master Yoda]

One thing that I have noticed that noone else has (to my knowledge), is if you plan to move the TTC to add the other 2-3 monorail lines, there is a problem...

The TTC is just that, a TTC. Keep in mind, I've never been to WDW, but I've heard about the traffic and this and that, and reading what you guys are pointing out, with the addition of what I already know, it would not be a good idea to move the TTC unless you have plans to:

A) Pave more roads (unless there are plenty)
B) Buy quite a few more buses
C) And maybe buy a couple more Parking Lot Trams.

To me, the TTC connects the Buses, Parking Lot Trams, and the Monorails.
If the TTC were to move, you have to be able to support the use of buses and PLT as well. I personally like the little automated 6 passenger cars, but it takes away from the magic, to me...

And alas, to me, building monorail is essentially cheaper... You don't have 2 steel rails which I would think costs more than concrete, and if possible, the monorails would only need a total of 3 more trains... 3 per line, taking away one from each as it is, it might work better than peoplemover. And from what I can tell, the guests like monorails better for the most part, when they are not stuck on them... Just add the new coupling system on the front of the trains, and you might have a solution...

Thoughts?

Depending on whose numbers you use elevated monorail track is as much as 10 times more expensive than rail track. If it were cheaper to build monorail track you would not see a single steel track railroad in this or any other country.

 

[PeterAlt]

While we're on the subject of monorail, here's some food for thought...

If the Roman Empire survived collapse, would the aquaduct system support the weight of a monorail on a newly constructed beam top level? I think it might have. Imagine that. High tech transport built on ancient infrastructure! Would have saved a fortune in construction costs if they kept the aquaduct system operating and maintained in good health!

 

[s8film40]

Depending on whose numbers you use elevated monorail track is as much as 10 times more expensive than rail track. If it were cheaper to build monorail track you would not see a single steel track railroad in this or any other country.

Who says it has to be elevated? Also elevated monorail track is much less expensive than elevated traditional rail track.