If monorail expansion is too expensive, why not peoplemover?

[nace888]

And what happens when a train breaks down or there is a power outage, both an all to common occurrence? Now instead of 50 people stuck waiting on another bus for 20-30 minutes you have 200-300 stuck until the problem is fixed or the tug is brought out. All the while an entire line of the monorail system is shut down for who knows how long.

That's when Disney needs to get serious, and have one tractor for each line, and at least 2 sidings on each track for the situation...

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I feel if there were sidings, the stranded train could be pulled to the siding, and the next train leaving from the station behind could be sent empty as a train-to-train evacuation rescue. Granted, pilots would have to be trained on such a thing, but it could work...

Using the siding for both evac and to get a train out of the way, would not only keep the people moving on their way, but would clear the line in minutes...

Thoughts?

 

[googilycub]

There wouldn't really be very many overpasses to cross I would think... Although, what is saved in using ground level beamway like 5 feet off the ground, would end up being used on more trains, right?

I would not want to see Monorails running on a ground level beamway as long as they are powered by 600 volts rail running along the bottom half of the beam. Even if you have some real ugly fences to keep people away, the safety issues, even in remote spots is just too great.

 

[googilycub]

That's when Disney needs to get serious, and have one tractor for each line, and at least 2 sidings on each track for the situation...

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I feel if there were sidings, the stranded train could be pulled to the siding, and the next train leaving from the station behind could be sent empty as a train-to-train evacuation rescue. Granted, pilots would have to be trained on such a thing, but it could work...

Using the siding for both evac and to get a train out of the way, would not only keep the people moving on their way, but would clear the line in minutes...

Thoughts?

Minutes? No way. It would be at least an hour at best, even with your example.

Trust me, I do this kind of thing for a living.....:wave:

 

[nace888]

Minutes? No way. It would be at least an hour at best, even with your example.

Trust me, I do this kind of thing for a living.....:wave:

What kind of thing And why wouldn't it work? A train to train evacuation plus having sidings spaced out and about would be nice...

Make the siding long enough to hold the tractor AND a train, that could give the tractor ready access on that line...

 

[DisneyJoe]

That's when Disney needs to get serious, and have one tractor for each line, and at least 2 sidings on each track for the situation...

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I feel if there were sidings, the stranded train could be pulled to the siding, and the next train leaving from the station behind could be sent empty as a train-to-train evacuation rescue. Granted, pilots would have to be trained on such a thing, but it could work...

Using the siding for both evac and to get a train out of the way, would not only keep the people moving on their way, but would clear the line in minutes...

Thoughts?

Assuming the line had power...

That's fine for a single stranded train or two - but if the power goes out on a section of the line, you could be stuck with multiple trains with no where to go and hundreds of people stranded.

 

[nace888]

Sadly, I must give in and agree here, :brick: Ah well, it was worth a shot, :ROFLOL:

It'd be a good idea though...

 

[s8film40]

This really isn't an issue of a cost comparison to move people by different methods. It really doesn't matter if monorails cost more than buses it's a matter of the level of service provided. WDW was built as a "Vacation Kingdom" an all inclusive resort where you could forget about the worries of the outside world and travel with ease to all the attractions within with little effort and enjoy every part of it. If Disney wants to get back to this first class level of service an expanded transit system that moves people around efficiently and with little effort for the guest is fundamental to this. It wasn't practical or feasible to build a monorail system in 1971 either but that was what made WDW special.

There are still a lot of practical benefits to a monorail system however.

Cost: Yes believe it or not monorails are less expensive, so long as you are planning long term. When you calculate numbers out long term you save money on fuel and more importantly labor and eventually recoup the buildout cost. The problem with this is Disney isn't currently operating WDW with a long term mindset they are really only looking a few years out at a time. The executives don't really care about the WDW of ten years from now because they won't be a part of it by then.

Efficiency: Yes monorails are very efficient you can move thousand of people within minutes. A new modern system can do this much more effectively than even the current one. Maintenance issues are not as much of a concern as many would think. A disabled train can be dealt with very quickly, yes you would have siding and tow tractors strategically placed and disabled trains could in fact be moved within minutes. This is actually even possible with todays system. Before they began implementing bad procedural changes in many cases trains were towed off the line without some guests even realizing it had happened. In a modern system where all elements work together this could be accomplished even faster.

More enjoyable ride: Monorails are a much more enjoyable way to travel. They offer a better view of the resort and a smoother ride without stopping and going in traffic on the roadways.

Most importantly is the time savings. If your paying thousands of dollars for you vacation it really is almost insulting to then be forced to waste your time spending hours riding buses and making connections and transfers eventually traveling a much greater distance to get where you are headed in many cases only a short distance.

It's really very simple if Disney wants to recapture what made WDW special this or something similar is absolutely necessary. However I suspect they will continue along at least for now just keeping the place going with empty marketing campaigns and a few big attractions hear and there. Eventually guests will start to notice and some have that WDW isn't really cutting edge anymore and doesn't really have that first class feel.

 

[flavious27]

I didn't realize what it took to get monorail built. The foundations and so on are a big and expensive part of building track. I assume that this expense is necessary because the monorail trains are not light weights, so you need all that concrete infrastructure to support it.

Peoplemover systems, on the other hand, are much lighter and probably does not need so much concrete support to keep it elevated. A buildout of small peoplemover routes instead of new monorail track may be the way to go to connect Disney attractions and resorts.

I envision one possible route that starts at the EPCOT Center monorail station, runs behind Living Seas, along Ave of Stars to International Gateway (where there would be a stop), to the front of Disney BoardWalk (where there would be a stop), along the canal to DHS (where there would be a stop).

Routes like this with peoplemovers instead of monorails would cost less to build, connect more "pin-point" areas (because of its smaller size), would be popular for guests because of its convenience and attraction-like appearance, and help with traffic congestion, as well as being environment friendly.

Your thoughts?

I doubt that disney co is going to spend the money to extend out the monorail system unless they get the high speed rail line built and disney can get part of their monorail line subsidized.

Disney can add some PRT lines to the park to help compliment the existing transportation. Disney can use different sized vehicles for different guest needs on those lines, which really isn't used right now for the monorails or buses.

Along with that, disney will need to built a real transportation and welcome center. What disney can do is have magical express and rail customers dropped off at this new ttc, and checked in and then taken to the parks while their luggage is delivered to their rooms.

 

[harryk]

Why the hang-up with the monorail system - this thread began with talk about the peoplemovers such as the wed-way system in Tomorrowland.

This seems to be the better way to go - smooth, relaxing ride.

Lets expand the wed-ways with their magnetic system.

 

[DisneyJoe]

What disney can do is have magical express and rail customers dropped off at this new ttc, and checked in and then taken to the parks while their luggage is delivered to their rooms.

From what I understand, this would involve reworking the hotel reservation system since the reservations for each resort are transferred to that resort a few days before a guest arrives - in effect, making it mandatory for a guest to be at that resort to check in. I could possibly be wrong.

Logistically, that would need to be one very large check in desk at that new ttc - just imagine a train or a few buses pulling up at once. Right now a bus or two plus cars can overwhelm a regular front desk, so this new center would need to have a large staff. Put a few groups with special requests in line, or those who have never been to WDW before and need extra attention, and I can see the lines getting very long very quickly.

 

[PeterAlt]

I doubt that disney co is going to spend the money to extend out the monorail system unless they get the high speed rail line built and disney can get part of their monorail line subsidized.

Disney can add some PRT lines to the park to help compliment the existing transportation. Disney can use different sized vehicles for different guest needs on those lines, which really isn't used right now for the monorails or buses.

Along with that, disney will need to built a real transportation and welcome center. What disney can do is have magical express and rail customers dropped off at this new ttc, and checked in and then taken to the parks while their luggage is delivered to their rooms.

I wonder if the cost of extending monorail from the TTC was included in the bottom line price tag for building EPCOT Center. If so, that would partially explain the huge cost of building that park. It would also mean that the Eisner team "cheated" when they bragged that they built DHS at a fraction of what it cost to build EPCOT. Also consider that the EPCOT to TTC line is a long stretch, compared to the short distance it would have required to extend it to DHS.

 

[flavious27]

From what I understand, this would involve reworking the hotel reservation system since the reservations for each resort are transferred to that resort a few days before a guest arrives - in effect, making it mandatory for a guest to be at that resort to check in. I could possibly be wrong.

Logistically, that would need to be one very large check in desk at that new ttc - just imagine a train or a few buses pulling up at once. Right now a bus or two plus cars can overwhelm a regular front desk, so this new center would need to have a large staff. Put a few groups with special requests in line, or those who have never been to WDW before and need extra attention, and I can see the lines getting very long very quickly.

No clue on how the reservations work but I know that when there was a problem with with a hotel reservation setup on the wedding site, they searched the whole park for my name.

Well I would imagine with that concept that disney would transfer a percentage of agents from each hotel to this ttc. There wouldn't be a long check counter but different pods throughout that could be turned from regular guests to special needs or groups, etc. Also there could be a quick check-in area for experienced guests. A customer would just need to scan in a print out of their reservation, type in the amount of bags they need placed in their room, and put the label on the boxes and take them to a cm.

 

[DisneyJoe]

Well I would imagine with that concept that disney would transfer a percentage of agents from each hotel to this ttc. There wouldn't be a long check counter but different pods throughout that could be turned from regular guests to special needs or groups, etc.

I'm talking about handling the sheer volume.

Let's say that a resort front desk CM can handle 6 checkins per hour, that's one every 10 minutes. If 4 CM's are on duty, that's 24 checkins per hour. I've had my express check in take 4 minutes and other checkins take 30-45 minutes or more with a bad cm or bad computer, so 10 minutes is an average.

A magical express bus pulls up with 12 checkins, and 10 minutes later another pulls up with another 12 checkins. You are now keeping those CM's busy for the next hour+.

There are 20 front desks at Disney-owned resorts. If all of the guests went to the new ttc check in, they would need to process 480 checkins in an hour with 80 cm's. If only half go to this new center for checkin, thats 240 checkins with 40 cm's.

You would also need CM's to handle the extra items, such as purchasing park tickets, making ADR's etc.

Don't forget that each resort is a separate accounting cost center too - I'm not sure how they would work that out.

Each person standing at the check in usually has a family with them, many of them children... they would need something to keep them entertained.

 

[Lord Pheonix]

The people mover is pretty slow, and more like a tour ride kind of thing, rather than a transportation system (to me anyway).

you people are overlooking something. yes they would have to be enclosed, but the peoplemover system is a L.I.M., or linier induction moter. and most of you all know how fast a LIM can go, like on r&rc, 0 to 60 in 5 sec, or in the case of the fastest coaster in the world, kingda ka in jerseys six flags, 0 to 128 in 3 seconds, all that it takes is simply ramping up the power, maybe slightly bigger moters is all. to go from peoplemover speed, 15 mph or whatever it is to a good inter park speed, like 25 or 30, is a small increase in amperage, but ALOT less then what the monorail runs on, which as far as i know is 600 volts @ 200 (?) amps, per moter, because of its combined weight. not sure about the exact numbers but the principle is the same, just need an electritian to come on here to give more accurate numbers.

 

[maxairmike]

you people are overlooking something. yes they would have to be enclosed, but the peoplemover system is a L.I.M., or linier induction moter. and most of you all know how fast a LIM can go, like on r&rc, 0 to 60 in 5 sec, or in the case of the fastest coaster in the world, kingda ka in jerseys six flags, 0 to 128 in 3 seconds, all that it takes is simply ramping up the power, maybe slightly bigger moters is all. to go from peoplemover speed, 15 mph or whatever it is to a good inter park speed, like 25 or 30, is a small increase in amperage, but ALOT less then what the monorail runs on, which as far as i know is 600 volts @ 200 (?) amps, per moter, because of its combined weight. not sure about the exact numbers but the principle is the same, just need an electritian to come on here to give more accurate numbers.

Kingda Ka uses a (very poorly planned and executed) hydraulic launch system, not LIMs/LSMs. Superman at Six Flags Magic Mountain uses an LSM system (Linear Synchronous Motor, which uses rare-earth magnetics instead of pure electromagnetics like a LIM does, in addition to the different firing sequence of the motors/magnets). Power usage to achieve those sudden bursts of speed are not insignificant, and a more gradual increase in speed would be much more economical on the electrical system.

 

[flavious27]

I wonder if the cost of extending mono oral from the TTC was included in the bottom line price tag for building EPCOT Center. If so, that would partially explain the huge cost of building that park. It would also mean that the Eisner team "cheated" when they bragged that they built DHS at a fraction of what it cost to build EPCOT. Also consider that the EPCOT to TTC line is a long stretch, compared to the short distance it would have required to extend it to DHS.

I wouldn't doubt that the cost of the epcot line was part of the construction costs for epcot. Also DHS was smaller when it opened, epcot is about the same size.

 

[flavious27]

I'm talking about handling the sheer volume.

Let's say that a resort front desk CM can handle 6 checkins per hour, that's one every 10 minutes. If 4 CM's are on duty, that's 24 checkins per hour. I've had my express check in take 4 minutes and other checkins take 30-45 minutes or more with a bad cm or bad computer, so 10 minutes is an average.

A magical express bus pulls up with 12 checkins, and 10 minutes later another pulls up with another 12 checkins. You are now keeping those CM's busy for the next hour+.

There are 20 front desks at Disney-owned resorts. If all of the guests went to the new ttc check in, they would need to process 480 checkins in an hour with 80 cm's. If only half go to this new center for checkin, thats 240 checkins with 40 cm's.

You would also need CM's to handle the extra items, such as purchasing park tickets, making ADR's etc.

Don't forget that each resort is a separate accounting cost center too - I'm not sure how they would work that out.

Each person standing at the check in usually has a family with them, many of them children... they would need something to keep them entertained.

I know the sheer volume of the building is going to be like something else, I would beg it like being in World of Disney on a busy day. That is partly why it will not be the only place to check in at. I see a multilevel approach to where the check in counters where will. One level will be for just magical express buses, will multiple entrances for them so it doesn't have a port authority feel to it. Another level will be for the connection from the new TTC and HSR station. This level would be elevated and give a more expansive look of the interior of the station, showcasing the buzz and activity of the ttc. Along with that, the epcot line of the monorail will travel through, giving it the feeling of the contemporary but better because it won't stop and just float in and out.

This is a rough overview of what I was thinking of for the TTC. The 2 prt line platforms connected to the main check in area would be on the third level while the back one would be on the second level. The bus loading area and vip area would be on the first floor. The back of the station would only be two levels but the wall facing EPCOT Drive would be three levels tall with a pathway to get to the other portion of the station. The platform for the line to the HSR station be on the second level. Also on the second level would check in counters lining the outside wall. The main level would have specialty check in counters lining the outside wall. There would be 8 check in clusters on the main floor, basically the check in area would be circular so that CM can store luggage in the middle. In the middle of the main check in area would be a three level tall structure so children to be entertained and also be able to view every thing that is going on in the ttc. Oh and luggage would be transported out of an exit located under the platform for the line to the hsr station.

 

[nace888]

Disney does not need PRTs.

 

[flavious27]

Disney does not need PRTs.

They are a more efficient transportation mode than the buses and cheaper to build than the monorails.

 

[s8film40]

They are a more efficient transportation mode than the buses and cheaper to build than the monorails.

They are not necessarily cheaper. For WDW to have an effective PRT system they would need to remove the monorails and replace them with PRT. Having a PRT where you have to make transfers from different modes of transportation defeats the purpose of having PRT in the first place. Disney would be best suited to expand and enhance what they already have rather than starting over from scratch.