If monorail expansion is too expensive, why not peoplemover?

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Here's my idea for expanded system. I think the solution isn't to have a monorail go everywhere necessarily but to use monorail to get you from one area of the resort to the other stopping at major destinations. Then for hotels and smaller destinations transportation circulates within that area, reducing the long bus routes and duplicated bus routes.

 

MarkTwain

Well-Known Member
Here's my idea for expanded system. I think the solution isn't to have a monorail go everywhere necessarily but to use monorail to get you from one area of the resort to the other stopping at major destinations. Then for hotels and smaller destinations transportation circulates within that area, reducing the long bus routes and duplicated bus routes.


That's probably one of the most efficient proposals I've seen for an all-park and all-water park monorail expansion. It would also give Epcot the exciting role as being the literal transit "center" of WDW.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Here's the peoplemove route For EPCOT to DHS.

wdw.PNG
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Who says it has to be elevated? Also elevated monorail track is much less expensive than elevated traditional rail track.

:sohappy::sohappy::sohappy:

THANK YOU!!!

As for the new line proposal, WDW would have to add a good 6 more trains... Maybe 9, 3 being for the new line, and the other 6 to support the expanded EPCOT line... This being in mind, there has to be another 9 colors, unless you make it known that guests should be waiting on a train for another 20-30 minutes... What do you think?
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Who says it has to be elevated? Also elevated monorail track is much less expensive than elevated traditional rail track.
Does it have to be elevated...no, but not doing so will cause problems at every location where the train would cross car traffic lanes. We have all seen how people turn their brains off the second they get on property. How long do you think it would take before someone tried to beat the monorail at a crossing resulting in an entire family getting killed? Elevated track is the best and safest way to incorporate it into the existing system without hampering what is already there.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Does it have to be elevated...no, but not doing so will cause problems at every location where the train would cross car traffic lanes. We have all seen how people turn their brains off the second they get on property. How long do you think it would take before someone tried to beat the monorail at a crossing resulting in an entire family getting killed? Elevated track is the best and safest way to incorporate it into the existing system without hampering what is already there.

First off, who says that the crossing must be a grade level crossing? I am pretty sure us fans, former drivers, AND WDW would not make a grade level crossing for a monorail, it's stupid. That's why the trains and crossings go OVER the car lanes, thus not interfering with traffic.

As for Elevated track being best, that's not all entirely true. You can make "ground level" track in nature areas, for example in the wooded areas where nothing else is, near a river if there was one, or other things like that... It would work, trust me...

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=774645&page=15 If you look down some, you'll see some pics with Mark IV's, and they are near the ground, this could be done if WDW really wanted to...
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Does it have to be elevated...no, but not doing so will cause problems at every location where the train would cross car traffic lanes. We have all seen how people turn their brains off the second they get on property. How long do you think it would take before someone tried to beat the monorail at a crossing resulting in an entire family getting killed? Elevated track is the best and safest way to incorporate it into the existing system without hampering what is already there.

I agree elevated track is the way to go, and monorail is the most inexpensive way to do that. There are some areas though like long stretches through unused land where it could go down to ground level, this could greatly reduce the costs of an expansive system. Walt Disney's original EPCOT plan actually called for ground level monorails as well.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
I agree elevated track is the way to go, and monorail is the most inexpensive way to do that. There are some areas though like long stretches through unused land where it could go down to ground level, this could greatly reduce the costs of an expansive system. Walt Disney's original EPCOT plan actually called for ground level monorails as well.

Just what I was trying to say! Sadly though, I typed so much, you beat me to it!! :ROFLOL::sohappy:
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
First off, who says that the crossing must be a grade level crossing? I am pretty sure us fans, former drivers, AND WDW would not make a grade level crossing for a monorail, it's stupid. That's why the trains and crossings go OVER the car lanes, thus not interfering with traffic.

As for Elevated track being best, that's not all entirely true. You can make "ground level" track in nature areas, for example in the wooded areas where nothing else is, near a river if there was one, or other things like that... It would work, trust me...

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=774645&page=15 If you look down some, you'll see some pics with Mark IV's, and they are near the ground, this could be done if WDW really wanted to...

I agree elevated track is the way to go, and monorail is the most inexpensive way to do that. There are some areas though like long stretches through unused land where it could go down to ground level, this could greatly reduce the costs of an expansive system. Walt Disney's original EPCOT plan actually called for ground level monorails as well.
What will dictate that is the maximum angle a monorail can ascend and descend. If this angle is too low it can take quite a bit of distance to become high enough to clear traffic. The minimum recommended height for an overpass is around 17'. Even at a 4 degree grade it would take 242 feet for the track to make it from ground level to 17', then you have the length of the overpass plus another 242 to get back down to grade again. That leaves you with about a 500-550' overpass for every road you cross. Depending on your route and how often you cross car lanes a grade level track simply might not be practical or possible. Your next choices are taking the car traffic over or under a grade level track but you run into the same problem....your run out of space due to maximum grade requirements.

If they were to take the monorail, peoplemover or whatever property wide their might be some runs that could be done on grade but the vast majority of it would need to be elevated.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
What will dictate that is the maximum angle a monorail can ascend and descend. If this angle is too low it can take quite a bit of distance to become high enough to clear traffic. The minimum recommended height for an overpass is around 17'. Even at a 4 degree grade it would take 242 feet for the track to make it from ground level to 17', then you have the length of the overpass plus another 242 to get back down to grade again. That leaves you with about a 500-550' overpass for every road you cross. Depending on your route and how often you cross car lanes a grade level track simply might not be practical or possible. Your next choices are taking the car traffic over or under a grade level track but you run into the same problem....your run out of space due to maximum grade requirements.

If they were to take the monorail, peoplemover or whatever property wide their might be some runs that could be done on grade but the vast majority of it would need to be elevated.

Mark VI monorails are capable of a 6.5% grade, I haven't done the math so I'm not sure what that works out to distance wise. I think if I'm not mistaken they increased this with the Innovia 200 design, I believe Las Vegas has some steeper grades than WDW. In any case the long stretches through unused land are where this would be beneficial anyways in those cases 500' to come away from a crossing is negligible.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Mark VI monorails are capable of a 6.5% grade, I haven't done the math so I'm not sure what that works out to distance wise. I think if I'm not mistaken they increased this with the Innovia 200 design, I believe Las Vegas has some steeper grades than WDW. In any case the long stretches through unused land are where this would be beneficial anyways in those cases 500' to come away from a crossing is negligible.

Does this mean you're on my side? XD Besides, who's to say that the trains will cross over the overpasses??


If you were to show me where the train would have to cross the overpasses, I would say WDW would be willing to do it a couple of times...

What do you mean by the 500'??
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Does this mean you're on my side? XD Besides, who's to say that the trains will cross over the overpasses??


If you were to show me where the train would have to cross the overpasses, I would say WDW would be willing to do it a couple of times...

What do you mean by the 500'??

I'm not on any particular "side" I think the monorail system should be expanded but I don't think it will be. This is one area where Disney has really dropped the ball. WDW is supposed to be a first class resort and should have an easy efficient way of moving their guests around. I honestly have given up any hope on the immediate future of WDW, hopefully some years down the road some new management will see the potential there and treat it the way it should be treated.

By 500' I meant based on the calculations previously stated you could go from a road crossing to at grade within 500'. That to me sounds like a very reasonable amount to make at grade lines worth the savings in some areas.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
I'm not on any particular "side" I think the monorail system should be expanded but I don't think it will be. This is one area where Disney has really dropped the ball. WDW is supposed to be a first class resort and should have an easy efficient way of moving their guests around. I honestly have given up any hope on the immediate future of WDW, hopefully some years down the road some new management will see the potential there and treat it the way it should be treated.

By 500' I meant based on the calculations previously stated you could go from a road crossing to at grade within 500'. That to me sounds like a very reasonable amount to make at grade lines worth the savings in some areas.

There wouldn't really be very many overpasses to cross I would think... Although, what is saved in using ground level beamway like 5 feet off the ground, would end up being used on more trains, right?
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
I'm not on any particular "side" I think the monorail system should be expanded but I don't think it will be. This is one area where Disney has really dropped the ball. WDW is supposed to be a first class resort and should have an easy efficient way of moving their guests around. I honestly have given up any hope on the immediate future of WDW, hopefully some years down the road some new management will see the potential there and treat it the way it should be treated.

By 500' I meant based on the calculations previously stated you could go from a road crossing to at grade within 500'. That to me sounds like a very reasonable amount to make at grade lines worth the savings in some areas.
Like most things it all comes down to money. At the end of the day when you let go of ideology, dreams, etc Disney wants the most economically viable form of transportation for their guests. Right now that form of transportation is buses. There is no question that they are as unmagical as they come, but they work on the existing infrastructure, they are incredibly flexible and they cost vastly less than a monorail. If anyone can come up with a viable plan to where a monorail expansion will cost less than the current bus system, Disney will build it in a second.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Like most things it all comes down to money. At the end of the day when you let go of ideology, dreams, etc Disney wants the most economically viable form of transportation for their guests. Right now that form of transportation is buses. There is no question that they are as unmagical as they come, but they work on the existing infrastructure, they are incredibly flexible and they cost vastly less than a monorail. If anyone can come up with a viable plan to where a monorail expansion will cost less than the current bus system, Disney will build it in a second.

I'll believe it when they become electric buses, because not only is steel at a high in price, and concrete is a bit under that, buses use TONS and TONS of gas... I highly doubt anything is more expensive especially to maintain... There are tons more buses that use more and more gas, plus there's more than 12 buses to maintain in the mechanical aspect. If they added more Monorail Trains, it's not even as much to maintain as the 200 some-odd buses that exist there...
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
I'll believe it when they become electric buses, because not only is steel at a high in price, and concrete is a bit under that, buses use TONS and TONS of gas... I highly doubt anything is more expensive especially to maintain... There are tons more buses that use more and more gas, plus there's more than 12 buses to maintain in the mechanical aspect. If they added more Monorail Trains, it's not even as much to maintain as the 200 some-odd buses that exist there...
In spite of what some my say, Disney is a very smart company. If they thought for one second that a monorail would be cheaper than the bus fleet it would have been completed decades ago. I will guarantee you that they have done numerous cost studies figuring in every relevant factor of construction, operation and maintenance and the buses win every time.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
In spite of what some my say, Disney is a very smart company. If they thought for one second that a monorail would be cheaper than the bus fleet it would have been completed decades ago. I will guarantee you that they have done numerous cost studies figuring in every relevant factor of construction, operation and maintenance and the buses win every time.

Even if that is the case, I am sure the guests would say they'd rather ride a 15-20 minute ride on a monorail with a couple of stops instead of riding a bus that gets stuck in 1 hour traffic... I suppose it's a matter of opinion.....
 

Howdy

Lurker extraordinaire
Premium Member
Even if that is the case, I am sure the guests would say they'd rather ride a 15-20 minute ride on a monorail with a couple of stops instead of riding a bus that gets stuck in 1 hour traffic... I suppose it's a matter of opinion.....
True, but the guests that say this would not be willing (able) to pay the premium price of a resort on a monorail; and there would HAVE to be one because, as stated previously, the monorail simply will in no way pay for itself.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
True, but the guests that say this would not be willing (able) to pay the premium price of a resort on a monorail; and there would HAVE to be one because, as stated previously, the monorail simply will in no way pay for itself.

I'm sure if WDW were to raise the price of admission by $10.00, they would use that as a means to pay for the trains...

With this in mind however, I think instead of expanding the EPCOT/Exterior lines, a new line might be better...
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Even if that is the case, I am sure the guests would say they'd rather ride a 15-20 minute ride on a monorail with a couple of stops instead of riding a bus that gets stuck in 1 hour traffic... I suppose it's a matter of opinion.....
And what happens when a train breaks down or there is a power outage, both an all to common occurrence? Now instead of 50 people stuck waiting on another bus for 20-30 minutes you have 200-300 stuck until the problem is fixed or the tug is brought out. All the while an entire line of the monorail system is shut down for who knows how long.
 

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