HSR Coming to FLA, AKA "See I told you so"

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Presumably because that one commercial company is one that thousands of other companies in the area depend upon.

However there are plenty of other companies who potentialy could be negatively affected.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Can someone please explain how after all this is built, how it's actually expected to turn a profit? It seems like there *might* be profitability with a run from the airport to Disney and the convention center. However, it still has a problem that is always brought up as a reason the monorail at Disney will never be expanded. That is, people don't like transferring to get from point A to point B. Point to point service is just too convenient. So you take the rail from the airport to some station... then you have to transfer again to get to your hotel. Then reverse it for the trip back to the airport. Throw luggage in the mix.. and frustration sets in.

Still, let's presume that they're able to make that run mildly profitable. How would a run from Tampa up to Orlando make money? It seems that in that corridor, point to point service (your car) reign supreme. Visitors from Tampa probably normally just drive a car. What would motivate most of them to take a train?

Then of course there's the point that if the Amtrak Northeast corridor can't make money, how would this turn a profit? I believe that corridor is probably one of the busiest rail corridors in the US.

While it is cool and flashy, IMO HSR looks to be a money pit once it's built.

Um, why does it have to make a profit? Does the interstate system make a profit? Amtrak? Even the airlines hardly make any money. In my mind, this is purely about providing a public service. I don't think anyone is going into this with the mindset of 'wow, this is going to make truckloads of cash!' If it makes money, awesome, but if not, oh well.

 

[The Mom]

Guys, let's not get political about this, and please leave out personal attacks. Thanks.

 

[devoy1701]

Um, why does it have to make a profit? Does the interstate system make a profit? Amtrak? Even the airlines hardly make any money. In my mind, this is purely about providing a public service. I don't think anyone is going into this with the mindset of 'wow, this is going to make truckloads of cash!' If it makes money, awesome, but if not, oh well.

it wont necessarily make a profit directly. But there are thousands of people who commute between Tampa, Lakeland, and Orlando every day...and they'll be able to get alot more done spending an hour on a train than spending an hour in the car.

Not to mention it will bring in new businesses to both Tampa and Orlando, making the two business centers essentially one.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Um, why does it have to make a profit? Does the interstate system make a profit? Amtrak? Even the airlines hardly make any money. In my mind, this is purely about providing a public service. I don't think anyone is going into this with the mindset of 'wow, this is going to make truckloads of cash!' If it makes money, awesome, but if not, oh well.

Because otherwise it would be unAmerican

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

it wont necessarily make a profit directly. But there are thousands of people who commute between Tampa, Lakeland, and Orlando every day...and they'll be able to get alot more done spending an hour on a train than spending an hour in the car.

Not to mention it will bring in new businesses to both Tampa and Orlando, making the two business centers essentially one.

I understand that, that's one of the many great advantages to building this. I was just responding to the thought that the high-speed rail itself was supposed to make a lot of profit, which I don't think is a driving force behind this project.

 

[fosse76]

Can someone please explain how after all this is built, how it's actually expected to turn a profit? It seems like there *might* be profitability with a run from the airport to Disney and the convention center.

While government agencies are technically supposed to cover their costs, they aren't designed for profit. As this is a service, it only needs to cover its costs. However, like all mass transit systems in this country, it'll probably operate on deficits.

However, it still has a problem that is always brought up as a reason the monorail at Disney will never be expanded. That is, people don't like transferring to get from point A to point B. Point to point service is just too convenient.

That's not the reason the monorail won't be expanded. The cost to build it is the reason it won't be expanded.

So you take the rail from the airport to some station... then you have to transfer again to get to your hotel. Then reverse it for the trip back to the airport. Throw luggage in the mix.. and frustration sets in.

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing up the luggage issue. It's brought to and from MCO on a truck...not the DME busses. Even if Disney switches that service over to the train, there isn't anything that would keep them from continuing to offer luggage service.

However, I agree. People aren't going to want to board a train and then transfer to a bus. But ss someone else mentioned, and as you hinted at above, the operation of the system is going to be expensive, so I'd count on there being set train schedules...making this method of travel a little less appealing.

Still, let's presume that they're able to make that run mildly profitable. How would a run from Tampa up to Orlando make money? It seems that in that corridor, point to point service (your car) reign supreme. Visitors from Tampa probably normally just drive a car. What would motivate most of them to take a train?

Then of course there's the point that if the Amtrak Northeast corridor can't make money, how would this turn a profit? I believe that corridor is probably one of the busiest rail corridors in the US.

It's the bussiest for sure, but it's not like the trains are packed...you have to put it in perspective. I believe the real reasons that Amtrak is so unprofitable are a) in most instances it is CHEAPER to fly than to book a two-way trip on Amtrak; b) it has some of the most inconvenient departure times, sometimes only leaving for some destinations really early in the morning; c) the travel time. Why would I take a four hour train ride to DC from New York when I can take a 45-minute flight for $20 less?

While it is cool and flashy, IMO HSR looks to be a money pit once it's built.

We'll see. I'd expect to start seeing Disney's competitors and some of the lesser-known entertainment options in Orlando start to offer tie-in deals with the rail service...something Disney is unlikely to do without eliminating DME.

 

[WDWFigment]

However there are plenty of other companies who potentialy could be negatively affected.

I would think (hope, actually) the local governments would perform studies to determine the economical impact of each potential location. Given that DME is already offered, I think WDW would have a hard time arguing that having a stop on property would result in a large influx of tourists who otherwise wouldn't come. That doesn't mean the company won't be able to successfully lobby the Florida gov't (which I guess then gets to your point).

On a different note, this thread has been amusing. Reminds me of why I rarely read the News & Rumors board anymore, but is amusing nonetheless. You're always the victim, aren't you, JT?

I remember there were a large number of members who "returned" when Merf was banned. I wonder if something similar would happen if any currently "prolific" posters disappeared...

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Because otherwise it would be unAmerican

:ROFLOL:

You are my hero sometimes, you know that?

You all are weirdos!

 

[devoy1701]

I understand that, that's one of the many great advantages to building this. I was just responding to the thought that the high-speed rail itself was supposed to make a lot of profit, which I don't think is a driving force behind this project.

I know...and i meant to add in the comment that you were responding too as well... I also don't believe it's going to be profitable alone...but it will bring in more business to the areas, and alot of people will use it for the convenience factor. I don't think people are going to be bothered with driving from point A (home) to point B (train station) and taking the train from point B to point C, then having to get a bus, shuttle, cab, or walk from point C to their final destination.

People living in just about every major city in the US do this already...

 

[disneydork23]

The point of high-speed rail is not to make profit. I think a lot of people who don't live in major cities have a hard time seeing the benefit of living car free. It is a beautiful thing. Transfers are nothing compared to traffic...

As for the argument that with the luggage it will be too difficult to transfer here and there, that's simply not true. In Chicago, many people take the Orange or Blue lines directly to the airport and have to transfer from the Red or Brown lines. It is way cheaper with less stress then having to get through traffic on 90-94. I'm sure the same is true for tons of other cities with fabulous transportation, although I can't speak to those myself.

I can't wait to ride this. I hope that Universal and all the other competition have the foresight to begin to build their own connecting links. The Central Florida area really has the potential to be the perfect example of the public transit model. I'm so excited!

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

I know...and i meant to add in the comment that you were responding too as well... I also don't believe it's going to be profitable alone...but it will bring in more business to the areas, and alot of people will use it for the convenience factor. I don't think people are going to be bothered with driving from point A (home) to point B (train station) and taking the train from point B to point C, then having to get a bus, shuttle, cab, or walk from point C to their final destination.

People living in just about every major city in the US do this already...

I hear ya. :wave:

As an Orlando local, I don't see myself much using this, unless it's cheap and there's easy transportation to, say, something like Busch Gardens from the station in Tampa. My primary interest and hope in this is that it will lead to a nationwide high speed rail network that will make it much cheaper to travel across the country than the airlines or road-tripping currently are.

 

[lazyboy97o]

They tried that, remember 2001 - 2003 :lol: the different is this time federal money is involved so disney don't have as much of an opinion, now they can change their mind and not give the land for a station... but the state could do eminent domain for one if they really wanted. :lookaroun

The route will most likely hit the airport, convention center (It gets enough business it should be on the route), and mouse... and given universal and seaworld are just down the road from the convention center... they win...

The other stops being lakeland and tampa... and maybe a few others thrown in there.

A well informed contributor to WDWMagic?



No. In fact, the complete distribution of the High Speed Rail funds has not been announced except for the Orlando-Tampa link announced just today. Here is the thread where we hashed all this out with people like " Giraffe Lounge" and "lazyboy97" and "wm49rs".

It explains everything. And much more. :lol:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=497536

Now you are just misrepresenting the facts. I said no such thing. Work out your issues on someone else, I won't play your childish game. :wave:

I honestly can't make sense of what you are trying to say as you are rambling now. :hammer:

Anyway, here is the breakdown. Cali is getting about a third of what they were hoping for.

Other transportation corridors that received funding are: California for $2.34 billion, Washington and Oregon for $598 million, Illinois and Missouri for $1.13 billion, Minnesota and Wisconsin for $823 million, Ohio for $400 million, Michigan for $244 million, North Carolina and Virginia for $620 million, New York for $151 million, Maine for $35 million, Washington, D.C., to Boston for $112 million, Pennsylvania for $27 million, New England for $160 million and other regions for $27 million.

California - $2,340
Washington & Oregon - $598
Minnesota & Wisconsin - $823
Michigan - $244
New York - $151
Maine - $35
Northwest Corridor - $112
Pennsylvania - $27
New England - $160
Illinois - $1,130/2
Total - $5,055 Million > $8,000 Million/2

Hardly seems like the politically advantageous states got a majority, as you predicted.

 

[hack2112]

Because otherwise it would be unAmerican

That's even funnier coming from you! :ROFLOL: :lol: :sohappy:

 

[DVCOwner]

High Speed Rail is a large black hole that the Federal Government can dump money down for years to come. High Speed rail can not be a computer line, it has to be a system to get people from one city to another. Some countries like Japan have invested in high speed rail vs. airline travel to connect cities. This is going to cost the taxpayer not only billions of dollars to build, but millions of dollors every year.

 

[DisneyJoe]

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing up the luggage issue. It's brought to and from MCO on a truck...not the DME busses. Even if Disney switches that service over to the train, there isn't anything that would keep them from continuing to offer luggage service

It's possible, however, with the current Magical Express situation there is a lock-in - if you sign up for Magical Express, and want to use their luggage transfer, you MUST be on a Magical Express bus - you cannot sign up for Magical Express and then not take the bus and hope your luggage goes to the resort without you.

You also cannot send your luggage back to the airport and not take the ME bus.

Don't forget - this is Disney's way of keeping you on property - unless there is an express train that is going to take you from the airport direct to the Disney stop, I don't see Magical Express going away.

 

[sknydave]

Can't wait to find out which government official's relative wins the construction contracts

 

[devoy1701]

The point of high-speed rail is not to make profit. I think a lot of people who don't live in major cities have a hard time seeing the benefit of living car free. It is a beautiful thing. Transfers are nothing compared to traffic...

This will by no means make it possible for Central Florida residents to live car free.

High Speed Rail is a large black hole that the Federal Government can dump money down for years to come. High Speed rail can not be a computer line, it has to be a system to get people from one city to another. Some countries like Japan have invested in high speed rail vs. airline travel to connect cities. This is going to cost the taxpayer not only billions of dollars to build, but millions of dollors every year.

In this case, a high speed rail will definitely act as a commuter line for Central Florida...and the plan in the works has these train stations being linked to the outlining communities by park and ride bus lots...just like a commuter lines of the big cities.

yes it's going to be expensive, but so was/is the interstate system which was funded originally by the federal gov't.

 

[Phonedave]

It's not inconceivable to me that high speed trains could become more desirable than air travel on moderate distance routes, even routes that are already served by air.

I know that I much prefer to go from Northern NJ to the Washington DC area via the Metroliner than by air.

There are many more available Metroliner times than flights.

There is no TSA on trains. If it leaves at 2:30, I can show up at the train station at 2:10

The Metroliner has power recepticles at the seat. That coupled with an air card in my laptop means that I am on-line and working while traveling.

There is more room on the Metroliner.

It is easier to get to the train stations than to the airport.

I am sure I could think of some other reasons as well.

-dave

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

.

There is no TSA on trains. If it leaves at 2:30, I can show up at the train station at 2:10
l.

-dave

Have they never watched Under Seige II. Its only a matter of time.