HKDL gets new castle, frozen land and marvel land.

momo123

Member
I’m sure Shanghai wants avatar but with Shanghai really wanting unique attractions (as seen from the past) I’m not sure Disney will have what they want! Not sure but otherwise I don’t see anything for HK besides the other option which is fill out the park with standard rides as previously mentioned.

I dont think rotr would even work in Asia Star Wars isn’t as popular as the others mentioned if they really wanted to they could do it in terms of space the whole thing probably would need to go in the grizly area and yea but anyway it won’t be ideal and for that level of cash the other option is probably better.
 

momo123

Member
I think one idea is a splash mountain ride I think Disney shared something in the last d23 with moana (HK had a log flume ride previously with a drop at OP it was really loved by the locals and something similar with better theming at Disney would go down well I think).
 

Absimilliard

Well-Known Member
Yes cause they asked for a government handout and still fired a bunch of staff. Disney didn't fire anyone also there is a slight issue with how animals are treated at OP that has come into question more recently. I think the biggest issue is a lack of new attractions at the park and if anything many of there older famous rides like the raging river (splash mountain like) & mine train (probably one the best rides anywhere actually because it literally hung of the side of a mountain with amazing views) and never replaced them with anything this happened right before covid. I think there was a whole plan but I think when covid hit they scrapped it and now the park lost what was its unique charm over Disney a lot of thrill rides being one of those driving factors.

Here is some history of Ocean Park and how it came to be to the state we are in today:

-Park opened in 1978 as a zoo, on goverment land and paid for by the Hong Kong Jockey Club, who provides official horse racing bets, lottery and gambling in Hong Kong. It is a government organisation.

- In 1984, added its first large rides, the Dragon looping roller coaster and the Raging River log flume. In addition to that, a nice ride package of spinning rides was added. A water park near the main entrance also came online during that time, the first Water World.

- 1992 saw the addition of the observation tower, 1993 three new kiddie rides and 1994 two new flat rides. The ferris wheel and the Huss Condor came online to leverage the amazing view in the Headlands ride area.

- The park first major mistake happened in 1995-1996, when they contracted Zamperla rides (maker of many rides for Disney, such as the modern Dumbo, the various Tow Mater/Alien Swirling Saucers whip rides and others) to design and build a new custom Mine Train roller coaster. After many millions of dollars, it just didn't work. They were also stuck, as there was a financial crisis raging through Asia at that time and they could not afford to remove the ride and get another that worked. They finally hired other companies and they were able to get the ride running in 1999.

- Around 2000, Water World (the original) closed down and was torn down, as it wasn't used many months in the year and was a product of the 1980s, with older slides.

- 2001 saw the addition of the Abyss, a double Turbo Drop set of drop towers from S&S as a replacement for the 1984 Huss Troika. It didn't work, as it didn't draw the crowds in. What did work was Halloween Fest, the first Halloween event in Asia. It was initially held on two weekends, but guests response was incredible and it expanded to one of the largest Halloween event at a theme park in the world in future years.

- In 2005, the 5.5 billion HKD redevelopment plan was launched to bring the park up to Hong Kong Disneyland level. This was not paid by the government, but Ocean Park management team instead went on the market and raised money at good rates for the time. The new plan would include among it's many components 3 new themed areas in the old Headlands ride area, the transformation of the entrance into the Waterfront and the addition of the world's largest aquarium.

- In the time between the announcement and the lands starting to open, a new player entered the fray: Chimelong. Chimelong is an oddity on the chinese domestic market: a real park operator who wants to have efficient operations, great attractions and provide a great experience. Their first massive park opened in 2006 in neary Panyu, Guangzhou and it was a great success. Their water park soon became the most attended in the world and it was obvious there was something incredible going on there.

- Shortly after Chimelong Paradise opened in 2006, plans were launched by Chimelong to build another resort. They went overseas for designers like Ocean Park and in 2010, broke ground on Chimelong Ocean Kingdom in Zhuhai. That park was designed to beat Ocean Park recent plans in every aspect: a bigger aquarium to get the world record, a bigger headliner roller coaster, more animals, etc. It opened in 2014 and it started drawing the chinese main tourists away from Ocean Park.

- In 2015, plans for a new Water World water park were announced at Ocean Park, to replace the old back entrance. The site was a massive challenge to work with, with massive height differences, slopes and hills. Now, Siam Park in Tenerife (Canary Islands) had a similar site and they were able to build the best water park in the world for 50-60 million USD around the same time. Proslide, their slide partner, proposed an approach where the land is used to house the slide, rather than terraforming everything to get it flat and then build slides on it. It is how Proslide started in 1987, when they built their first water slides at skiing mountains in Canada. How did Ocean Park instead design their water park? With massive terraforming and massive buildings to house a portion of the slides. The opposite of what Siam Park did...

- In 2016, lower tourist numbers to Hong Kong and Chimelong Ocean Kingdom started hurting Ocean Park visitor numbers. 2017 saw a brief visitor number rebound, thanks to the opening of the MTR station at the park entrance, but it was temporary.

- Before the pandemic hit, the new Water World went into massive cost overruns and eventually cost 4 billion HKD versus a planned cost of 2.29 billion HKD. It opened in september 2021 finally.

- In 2019-2020, Ocean Park asked the government for money to pay their commercial plans from the previous redevelopment plan. They gave out the money, 5.4 billion HKD, of which some went toward the 3.07 billion HKD commercial loands.

- In 2021, the government had to again inject money to save Ocean Park. 1.45 billion HKD were given to Ocean Park to pay the day-to-day bills and complete WaterWorld, which they had run out of money for at that point.

- The latest transformation plan as they call it is a 6.8 billion HKD proposal where a lot of things are outsourced and the goal is to make the park self-sufficient. In that aspect, with Hong Kong Disneyland able to make it through the COVID crisis with no further money from the LegCo

- In 2022, Ocean Park plan to turn the front of the park into a free entry dining and shopping area failed to attract a single bid during an invitation for tenders process.

To end on that topic, while the LegCo had to invest in Hong Kong Disneyland for new attractions, the park itself is structually sound and will make money. Ocean Park, even after removing most of its legacy attractions and getting billions in bailouts, is still having massive issues. I can see why the LegCo could decide at one point to say enough is enough and move on, concentrating all its ressources on Hong Kong Disneyland.
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
The current attractions I’d consider f ticket would be

Clear f ticket
-ROTR
-FOP

Potential f ticket
-BATB
-GOTG (EPCOT)

Headliners that I wouldn’t say are f ticket
- journey to the centre of the earth
-pirates of the Caribbean battle for the sunken treasure
-mystic manor
-anything in MK/DLP/WDS

Avatar looks set to go to Shanghai with that weird pop up though I feel it would fit in HK better because of the backdrop and the fact that HK doesn’t have a soarin (though it does have iron man, not as close to FOP as soarin but still a simulator), ROTR has too big a footprint for HK and it is already at two parks, BATB is already coming in the form of FEA (big new fantasyland storybook attraction) and Epcot guardians is too much like space considering it’ll be next door

So if HK wants an F ticket it either needs to win FOP off Shanghai (incredibly unlikely because if Shanghai wants it Shanghai will get it, HK will only get it if Shanghai explicitly doesn’t want it) or build something unique
PotC in SHanghai seems like an "F" ticket imo
I agree about Rise, not so much about FoP imo
 

Supersnow84

Well-Known Member
PotC in SHanghai seems like an "F" ticket imo
I agree about Rise, not so much about FoP imo
It’s hard to define, regardless as per the original question there is pretty much no f ticket or close to f ticket that HK could just copy, if they want a headliner they would need to build it from the ground up
 

Supersnow84

Well-Known Member
If an E-Ticket isn’t a headliner then is it really an E-Ticket?
Well take DHS

ROTR is the parks headliner, but HTH, RRC, MMRR, SDD and arguably smugglers run and midway mania are all E ticket attractions

I guess it’s kinda a messy definition these days because when the ticket books existed that defined e tickets it really only applied to the 2 American magic kingdoms which don’t have a single headliner but share headliner status between the core magic kingdom rides (haunted mansion, splash mountain, big thunder, space mountain)

So do we start demoting the non headliner to d tickets or promote the headliner to f ticket, though f ticket (or mega e ticket) also kinda means those absolute massive decade defining rides (like ROTR)
 

Supersnow84

Well-Known Member
Here is some history of Ocean Park and how it came to be to the state we are in today:

-Park opened in 1978 as a zoo, on goverment land and paid for by the Hong Kong Jockey Club, who provides official horse racing bets, lottery and gambling in Hong Kong. It is a government organisation.

- In 1984, added its first large rides, the Dragon looping roller coaster and the Raging River log flume. In addition to that, a nice ride package of spinning rides was added. A water park near the main entrance also came online during that time, the first Water World.

- 1992 saw the addition of the observation tower, 1993 three new kiddie rides and 1994 two new flat rides. The ferris wheel and the Huss Condor came online to leverage the amazing view in the Headlands ride area.

- The park first major mistake happened in 1995-1996, when they contracted Zamperla rides (maker of many rides for Disney, such as the modern Dumbo, the various Tow Mater/Alien Swirling Saucers whip rides and others) to design and build a new custom Mine Train roller coaster. After many millions of dollars, it just didn't work. They were also stuck, as there was a financial crisis raging through Asia at that time and they could not afford to remove the ride and get another that worked. They finally hired other companies and they were able to get the ride running in 1999.

- Around 2000, Water World (the original) closed down and was torn down, as it wasn't used many months in the year and was a product of the 1980s, with older slides.

- 2001 saw the addition of the Abyss, a double Turbo Drop set of drop towers from S&S as a replacement for the 1984 Huss Troika. It didn't work, as it didn't draw the crowds in. What did work was Halloween Fest, the first Halloween event in Asia. It was initially held on two weekends, but guests response was incredible and it expanded to one of the largest Halloween event at a theme park in the world in future years.

- In 2005, the 5.5 billion HKD redevelopment plan was launched to bring the park up to Hong Kong Disneyland level. This was not paid by the government, but Ocean Park management team instead went on the market and raised money at good rates for the time. The new plan would include among it's many components 3 new themed areas in the old Headlands ride area, the transformation of the entrance into the Waterfront and the addition of the world's largest aquarium.

- In the time between the announcement and the lands starting to open, a new player entered the fray: Chimelong. Chimelong is an oddity on the chinese domestic market: a real park operator who wants to have efficient operations, great attractions and provide a great experience. Their first massive park opened in 2006 in neary Panyu, Guangzhou and it was a great success. Their water park soon became the most attended in the world and it was obvious there was something incredible going on there.

- Shortly after Chimelong Paradise opened in 2006, plans were launched by Chimelong to build another resort. They went overseas for designers like Ocean Park and in 2010, broke ground on Chimelong Ocean Kingdom in Zhuhai. That park was designed to beat Ocean Park recent plans in every aspect: a bigger aquarium to get the world record, a bigger headliner roller coaster, more animals, etc. It opened in 2014 and it started drawing the chinese main tourists away from Ocean Park.

- In 2015, plans for a new Water World water park were announced at Ocean Park, to replace the old back entrance. The site was a massive challenge to work with, with massive height differences, slopes and hills. Now, Siam Park in Tenerife (Canary Islands) had a similar site and they were able to build the best water park in the world for 50-60 million USD around the same time. Proslide, their slide partner, proposed an approach where the land is used to house the slide, rather than terraforming everything to get it flat and then build slides on it. It is how Proslide started in 1987, when they built their first water slides at skiing mountains in Canada. How did Ocean Park instead design their water park? With massive terraforming and massive buildings to house a portion of the slides. The opposite of what Siam Park did...

- In 2016, lower tourist numbers to Hong Kong and Chimelong Ocean Kingdom started hurting Ocean Park visitor numbers. 2017 saw a brief visitor number rebound, thanks to the opening of the MTR station at the park entrance, but it was temporary.

- Before the pandemic hit, the new Water World went into massive cost overruns and eventually cost 4 billion HKD versus a planned cost of 2.29 billion HKD. It opened in september 2021 finally.

- In 2019-2020, Ocean Park asked the government for money to pay their commercial plans from the previous redevelopment plan. They gave out the money, 5.4 billion HKD, of which some went toward the 3.07 billion HKD commercial loands.

- In 2021, the government had to again inject money to save Ocean Park. 1.45 billion HKD were given to Ocean Park to pay the day-to-day bills and complete WaterWorld, which they had run out of money for at that point.

- The latest transformation plan as they call it is a 6.8 billion HKD proposal where a lot of things are outsourced and the goal is to make the park self-sufficient. In that aspect, with Hong Kong Disneyland able to make it through the COVID crisis with no further money from the LegCo

- In 2022, Ocean Park plan to turn the front of the park into a free entry dining and shopping area failed to attract a single bid during an invitation for tenders process.

To end on that topic, while the LegCo had to invest in Hong Kong Disneyland for new attractions, the park itself is structually sound and will make money. Ocean Park, even after removing most of its legacy attractions and getting billions in bailouts, is still having massive issues. I can see why the LegCo could decide at one point to say enough is enough and move on, concentrating all its ressources on Hong Kong Disneyland.
Thanks for the comprehensive explanation

So basically LegCo is choosing between a floundering park they are constantly having to bailout and a park that is structurally sound that needed a bit more investment to get going

In that Sense it definitely sounds like Disneyland is the better park on LegCo’s front especially ally with Disneyland overtaking ocean park on the popularity front since the castle Redo
 

momo123

Member
I agree with the above for me FOP isn't a F ticket maybe the line and everything is great but the ride isn't at least from my experience. I think scale is another important point like rise is huge it really is a omg I can't believe this is real (when it works) Pirates in Shanghai too at the end your like wow.

I think a f ticket is a ride that's using the latest technology & big in its scale and size & tells an awesome story with a thrill element. So far for me only two standout rise & Shanghai pirates. I see some mention journey to the centre in Tokyo It really had everything I just felt the story wasn't captivating enough but it did have all the other elements. Mystic too had the opportunity to be a F It just needed to be scarier & a end thrill factor which it didn't the size.
 

Supersnow84

Well-Known Member
On a different note (and I’m sorry if I’ve asked this before I know I kinda spam the Hong Kong thread)

How long do you think it’ll be before they formally announce what they intend to do with the remaining 5 billion

Of course they want to focus on arendelle but having park plans in the works always makes me happy
 

momo123

Member
On a different note (and I’m sorry if I’ve asked this before I know I kinda spam the Hong Kong thread)

How long do you think it’ll be before they formally announce what they intend to do with the remaining 5 billion

Of course they want to focus on arendelle but having park plans in the works always makes me happy
I think a lot depends on what’s happening. I don’t think Disney knows what to build there stark expo is very limiting concept they don’t have any off the shelf ride for the space. Mission break out with a re theme is a potential option but again sight lines? Theme example if it’s Spider-Man how does it fit in narratively ? Exterior look? Remember the theme was stark expo at HK. Besides this there is cosmic rewind but 2 coasters next to each other don’t work & 2 simulators don’t work space is stuck I think. I truly can’t think of anything to go there I can assure you if they did we would already know and construction would have been on the way.

I think an another is fop style marvel ride? But again we don’t know. The HK version is now stuck completely. The current state looks very tacked on its very not Disney look at the corner there in HK. I think just scrap it. Make something else in the grizzly area like some splash mountain e ticket and something in tsl?

Then wait for a future marvel franchise or for imagineers to come up with something for the site. If they must use 5b or so in the announcement or approval then I’m not sure what they can do maybe remove philiarmagic with a dark ride and move the 4d experience somewhere else not sure.
 

Supersnow84

Well-Known Member
I think a lot depends on what’s happening. I don’t think Disney knows what to build there stark expo is very limiting concept they don’t have any off the shelf ride for the space. Mission break out with a re theme is a potential option but again sight lines? Theme example if it’s Spider-Man how does it fit in narratively ? Exterior look? Remember the theme was stark expo at HK. Besides this there is cosmic rewind but 2 coasters next to each other don’t work & 2 simulators don’t work space is stuck I think. I truly can’t think of anything to go there I can assure you if they did we would already know and construction would have been on the way.

I think an another is fop style marvel ride? But again we don’t know. The HK version is now stuck completely. The current state looks very tacked on its very not Disney look at the corner there in HK. I think just scrap it. Make something else in the grizzly area like some splash mountain e ticket and something in tsl?

Then wait for a future marvel franchise or for imagineers to come up with something for the site. If they must use 5b or so in the announcement or approval then I’m not sure what they can do maybe remove philiarmagic with a dark ride and move the 4d experience somewhere else not sure.
I think they have the capacity to just ignore the autopia plot if they truly are stuck there, sure the current stark expo is a bit tacked on but at least they can just be like “oh it’s just more of Tomorrowland”, it’s not like they built it in a place where it needs to stand on its own to make sense as a land. I would honestly be fine with a TOT, the COMD kinda ruined HK’s sightlines anyway since you can see it from every land

I’m sure they want to keep the ball rolling (HK’s near perfect run of improving guest offerings year on year is probably its best claim to fame) I could see them using the money somewhere else and saying “we will come back to autopia when we Jane some more ideas from WDI” because I agree between space to its left and iron man to its right none of the other filler marvel campus attractions will work

They have near limitless potential with 5 billion, another land the size of arendelle would put it heads and shoulders above Shanghai
 

momo123

Member
Take a look at this these are the countries that visit the parks website the most. I also checked out the likely big markets for Hk disneyland with the movies that did well there. What I found is avatar and avengers were the top but behind that Spiderman is generally the best performer for Disney assets. In animations outside of China where zootopia & Hk where Toy Story is the best performer. Frozen is the top performer in the rest of HK's target markets. I think what's shocking is how poorly in Asia besides Australia Star Wars does.
 

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Supersnow84

Well-Known Member
Take a look at this these are the countries that visit the parks website the most. I also checked out the likely big markets for Hk disneyland with the movies that did well there. What I found is avatar and avengers were the top but behind that Spiderman is generally the best performer for Disney assets. In animations outside of China where zootopia & Hk where Toy Story is the best performer. Frozen is the top performer in the rest of HK's target markets. I think what's shocking is how poorly in Asia besides Australia Star Wars does.
So if they are going to build an avengers ride now Spider-Man looks to be the obvious choice though any avengers movie would work (again back to the problem of having no idea what to actually build for quinjet), which again seems to lead credence to that floated idea of a Spider-Man themed TOT (though if it’s similar to guardians it may get the double simulator problem)

If they are going to go an IP land then avatar seems the best candidate but that’s likely going to Shanghai, since HK already has frozen and Toy Story and zootopia is locked to Shanghai for at least 5 years there is no immediate candidate for a themed IP land at the current point

So unless HK goes out of left field and does an old movie nobody expected like how Tokyo did Peter Pan if they go the route of a land it’ll likely be a generic Disneyland mainstay, like more Frontierland or some such
 

momo123

Member
Yes I think a TOT style Spiderman ride is probably the best outcome for everyone (it should also cost a lot less & that can be used on others) I think Avatar is tough for Shanghai unless there's a unique new ride not sure the Shanghai Chinese partner agreeing to having FOP when they have soarin, So it is possible Hk gets it by default but not sure HK has the space to make the land immersive and worthwhile I think 3.3acres isn't enough when frozen took 5acres
 

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