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Haunted Mansion to Return with New Enhancements and Magic :(

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
And that reason is what? Walt Disney World Phase 1 was done by the same people.

They didn’t to make the cut at Disneyland. The ones that didn’t make it at Disneyland are the “B side” tracks or the tracks that didn’t make the album of you will.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
They didn’t to make the cut at Disneyland. The ones that didn’t make it at Disneyland are the “B side” tracks.
Based on what? The team built a second they intentionally made inferior? Marc Davis thought Pirates of the Caribbean was better at the Magic Kingdom. His opus that he spent the rest of his life trying to get built was designed for that park. But he intentionally made The Haunted Mansion there worse?
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Based on what? The team built a second they intentionally made inferior? Marc Davis thought Pirates of the Caribbean was better at the Magic Kingdom. His opus that he spent the rest of his life trying to get built was designed for that park. But he intentionally made The Haunted Mansion there worse?


Sorry am I missing something here? Marc Davis made a bunch of changing portrait concept art. The best of them (due to space constraints) were chosen for Disneyland. Logically the ones that were not chosen for Disneyland are inferior right?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Sorry am I missing something here? Marc Davis made a bunch of changing portrait concept art. The best of them (due to space constraints) were chosen for Disneyland. Logically the ones that were not chosen for Disneyland are inferior right?
It’s only logical if you start with the basis that Disneyland is inherently superior and the conscious effort is made to maintain that status. There was no reason they could not have duplicated the layout at the Magic Kingdom and kept only the good ones.
 

George Lucas on a Bench

Well-Known Member
What a weird niche complaint about the HM, the Original Versions of the Portraits. "They really only got great when they were redone." I can't say I prefer one to the other. Original obviously looks closer to Marc Davis style and the redone versions look fancier but less pure in that regard.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It’s only logical if you start with the basis that Disneyland is inherently superior and the conscious effort is made to maintain that status. There was no reason they could not have duplicated the layout at the Magic Kingdom and kept only the good ones.

Lol who is implying that? The portraits that didn’t make the cut at DL are the inferior ones as they were not chosen. Sure they could have made an identical copy of DLs at MK but that’s not things work are they? All of the E tickets at MK have some significant difference. So the project evolved and they found the need or desire to use the portraits that didn’t make the cut at DL.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
What a weird niche complaint about the HM, the Original Versions of the Portraits. "They really only got great when they were redone." I can't say I prefer one to the other. Original obviously looks closer to Marc Davis style and the redone versions look fancier but less pure in that regard.

Not sure if you re referring to me but those aren’t the words I used. And it wasn’t a complaint, it was an observation.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Lol who is implying that? The portraits that didn’t make the cut at DL are the inferior ones as they were not chosen. Sure they could have made an identical copy of DLs at MK but that’s not things work are they? All of the E tickets at MK have some significant difference. So the project evolved and they found the need or desire to use the portraits that didn’t make the cut at DL.
It is implied constantly. The earlier issue of the Stretching Rooms is a great example. People repeat all sorts of excuses for why they couldn’t do elevators instead of accepting that the same people working at the same time made a different design decision.

The Haunted Mansion was the first attraction developed simultaneously for multiple parks. Just like the Stretching Room you are creating a scenario that they had to revert to something undesired to deal with the situation in Florida.

A longer Director’s Cut of a movie isn’t usually considered to just be extra filler that was not actually desired to be in a movie.
 

BayouShack

Well-Known Member
IMO there’s no way the Florida HM wasn’t the result of some serious compromise.

The show advantage of having the floor drop, as opposed to the ceiling rise, is the roof of the mansion facade is able to be lower down with respect to the entry point.

Something objectively wrong with the MK version is that you enter the mansion through a doorway in the hill. The stretching room extends more than the length of any reasonable house, so it can’t stretch up enough if you enter through the first floor.

I think Phantom Manor is how the MK version was originally designed to work. You’d climb up a set of stairs to the house’s front door, then stretch back down in the elevator.

One story I read was that around just after foundations for the MK version we’re dug, leakage was discovered in the pit of the DL stretching room. So erring on the side of caution, the designed was revised so that you entered through the hill so the ceiling could move up instead, and you wouldn’t need all that equipment deep below the floor.

TDL copied it, but when there was a chance to try a third time at DLP, Imagineers chose to use the elevator. There’s no railroad to get under, but the elevator is still necessary if you are to enter through the front door.

.

Here’s a diagram of one way that it could have worked with the facade. Queue should have gone up the hill and approached the front door. You enter the house itself, and a narrow hallway takes you to a waiting foyer behind either stretching room. Stretching room floor drops, then you exit through the same doors into the same hallway that’s currently there.
618CFD68-8975-47C5-9EA4-A1901DE283E0.jpeg
 
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DavidDL

Well-Known Member
So while I was in the park last weekend, I decided to pick up the Haunted Mansion, Imagineering a Disney Classic book and found some fun bits regarding things we’ve discussed earlier in the thread.

81544212-14AD-4405-A431-ACE5A0E0ACD2.jpeg


Firstly, that the portrait of the decaying man is in fact, the Master of the House but that he is not in fact the Ghost Host, as I had previously believed. The two are different people but we do in fact see the Ghost Host in the next room.

6F42059A-0560-42A0-B0BC-68004D4656A2.jpeg


I guess the two were simply merged for the 2003 film.

Finally, for anyone wondering why the load area is commonly referred to as “the boundless realm”, here you go:

0A7BFC1C-9599-4332-80AE-2A862BC75267.jpeg


I guess “limbo of boundless mist and decay” doesn’t quite roll off the tongue the same way. Especially since our Ghost Host does say we’re off to “the boundless realm” of the supernatural while we’re waiting in the portrait hallway.
 

BayouShack

Well-Known Member
Firstly, that the portrait of the decaying man is in fact, the Master of the House but that he is not in fact the Ghost Host, as I had previously believed. The two are different people but we do in fact see the Ghost Host in the next room.

View attachment 558023
Since Yale Gracey was murdered, they wanted to avoid any association between Master Gracey, named after him, and the ghost host/hanging corpse.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
IMO there’s no way the Florida HM wasn’t the result of some serious compromise.

The show advantage of having the floor drop, as opposed to the ceiling rise, is the roof of the mansion facade is able to be lower down with respect to the entry point.

Something objectively wrong with the MK version is that you enter the mansion through a doorway in the hill. The stretching room extends more than the length of any reasonable house, so it can’t stretch up enough if you enter through the first floor.

I think Phantom Manor is how the MK version was originally designed to work. You’d climb up a set of stairs to the house’s front door, then stretch back down in the elevator.

One story I read was that around just after foundations for the MK version we’re dug, leakage was discovered in the pit of the DL stretching room. So erring on the side of caution, the designed was revised so that you entered through the hill so the ceiling could move up instead, and you wouldn’t need all that equipment deep below the floor.

TDL copied it, but when there was a chance to try a third time at DLP, Imagineers chose to use the elevator. There’s no railroad to get under, but the elevator is still necessary if you are to enter through the front door.

.

Here’s a diagram of one way that it could have worked with the facade. Queue should have gone up the hill and approached the front door. You enter the house itself, and a narrow hallway takes you to a waiting foyer behind either stretching room. Stretching room floor drops, then you exit through the same doors into the same hallway that’s currently there.
View attachment 558006
This idea that a leak would be shocking and cause this big change is part of this now ridiculous myth of the Florida water table that ignores what actually exists at Walt Disney World, other parks and just other parts of the area.

The water table is not right there immediately under the ground. But even then, water is something people have been building around for centuries. There are old tunnels in Downtown Orlando and more famous ones in Ybor City, Tampa (legend being that they were used during Prohibition).

Walt Disney World Phase 1 is a marvel of engineering and water management. The Magic Kingdom guest level being built atop the utilidors that were built at grade level is true but also over simplifies the actual guest “level” of the Magic Kingdom that varies. The north is generally a higher elevation than the south. But even in Fantasyland, right outside Village Haus you are above the large main entrance to the utilidors but over at Fantasyland Station you are down at ground level. Right there around The Haunted Mansion you have the Keelboat Dock that is well below the walkway level. Next door is “it’s a small world” where you walk down a ramp to board the boats. There are elevators throughout the park connecting the utilidors to the guest level. The Seven Seas Lagoon is connected to Bay Lake by the water bridge.

So why would a supposed leak at Disneyland cause this weird panic that only had the design team second guess two elevators but none of the others in the park? They built a bridge full of water that connects two lakes but they could not handle two elevators? Even with the deeper than standard pits at Disneyland, the Magic Kingdom plays games with elevation so that going up a bit could have been obscured.

Again, Marc Davis thought Pirates of the Caribbean at the Magic Kingdom improved upon and fixed problems with the Disneyland original. Most people disagree but it shows how he wasn’t viewing the Disneyland version as the ideal.
 

BayouShack

Well-Known Member
This idea that a leak would be shocking and cause this big change is part of this now ridiculous myth of the Florida water table that ignores what actually exists at Walt Disney World, other parks and just other parts of the area.

The water table is not right there immediately under the ground. But even then, water is something people have been building around for centuries. There are old tunnels in Downtown Orlando and more famous ones in Ybor City, Tampa (legend being that they were used during Prohibition).

I understand the water table isn’t an issue. The leak was traced to the Rivers of America, so I think that is what the Imagineers could have been worried about at the MK version. After all, their stretching room is even closing to the ROA. 🤷 It was the biggest attraction that opened with the park, so it’d make sense that they’d err on the side of caution if there was a sudden and unexpected issue with the elevators.

There are legitimate improvements to the MK POTC that I’m familiar with. I understand that Mark Davis seized the opportunity to reshape and restage the entire village sequence. The dunking well scene especially benefits from those changes. And I agree that the ending is more ideal: there’s a more appropriate final scene, and the separate unload station means the ride doesn’t end with an anticlimactic lift.

I just don’t see how entering the mansion through a tunnel is in any way an improvement over entering through the front door.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I understand the water table isn’t an issue. The leak was traced to the Rivers of America, so I think that is what the Imagineers could have been worried about at the MK version. After all, their stretching room is even closing to the ROA. 🤷 It was the biggest attraction that opened with the park, so it’d make sense that they’d err on the side of caution if there was a sudden and unexpected issue with the elevators.

There are legitimate improvements to the MK POTC that I’m familiar with. I understand that Mark Davis seized the opportunity to reshape and restage the entire village sequence. The dunking well scene especially benefits from those changes. And I agree that the ending is more ideal: there’s a more appropriate final scene, and the separate unload station means the ride doesn’t end with an anticlimactic lift.

I just don’t see how entering the mansion through a tunnel is in any way an improvement over entering through the front door.
The leak tracing to the Rivers of America again falls apart when looking at the actual context of the Magic Kingdom. The main walkway of Liberty Square is a whole level above the water line, so the relationship between the water level and elevators is completely different. You also have elevators built all around the park, Contemporary and Polynesian Village near even larger bodies of water in what a few years prior had been swampy muck. The main north-south tunnel of the utilidors goes underneath the Central Plaza moat, which contained a boat ride, twice at Cinderella Castle and at Main Street, USA with a third crossing on the loop between Main Street, USA and Adventureland. Some water leaking into the bottom of an elevator pit was too much but the entire Jungle Cruise and Plaza moat pouring into the utilidors was not a concern?

And again, while it has been poorly obscured over the years, you enter through the side of the house. Not a tunnel or crypt.
 

KIGhostGuy

Active Member
I’m very curious, I had always heard the water table story. If the water table wasn’t a problem, why isn’t the WDW Stretching Room an elevator?

By the way, I don’t understand the anti-Sinister 11 sentiment. I guess people on this board must not like April-December and Medusa, since both of those were turned into Sinister 11 paintings.
 

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
I’m very curious, I had always heard the water table story. If the water table wasn’t a problem, why isn’t the WDW Stretching Room an elevator?

By the way, I don’t understand the anti-Sinister 11 sentiment. I guess people on this board must not like April-December and Medusa, since both of those were turned into Sinister 11 paintings.
Walt didn't like the Rasputin portrait of the Sinister 11 either, but not because of the art more for the legal troubles it could bring him.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I’m very curious, I had always heard the water table story. If the water table wasn’t a problem, why isn’t the WDW Stretching Room an elevator?
My guess would be that they thought the simpler mechanism was not a detriment to the show. You’re not supposed to be aware that you are descending.

Not known at the time, but the Florida/Tokyo setup does allow the Rapid De-Stretch that was apparently quite the experience.
 

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