Has DVC Stalled the Parks and Created Complacency in TDO?

[The Empress Lilly]

I suspect most guests if given an choice between visiting the Epcot of yesteryear and the Epcot of today, would pick the "dumbed down" Epcot of today (less the higher ticket prices).

I think most guests prefer new Epcot over classic EPCOT Center indeed. The way a McDonalds draws more customers than a five star restaurant.

But as to the price...the price is my new hope. Higher prices means more discerning customers. A move from higher demand for the product, to higher demands of the product.

If Disney raises prices to that of a five star restaurant, then eventually the McDonald's crowd will be outpriced, leaving the five star crowd - who'll demand their five star product back.

 

[flynnibus]

These are not facts they are your opinions.

No, they are facts of what has happened - and in every case cited, they are REDUCTIONS in what the show is. You may like the new show, but it's still a reduction. And while you like it and defend things like the rope drop is a suitable replacement for actual entertainment.. if you consult with any designers or people who actually BUILT the Disney company into the industry powerhouse it was... they too shun your fanastic additions like the wand.

Seriously.. defending Imagination as better... The wand as an improvement.. Empty SSE decent as better.. Ellen better... you're right, you are polar opposite from those you wish to call the 'minority'.

You're as bad as jt and glossed over by big shiney lights you can't even see the floor dropping out in front of you. No point in trying to break through those glasses you are wear.

 

[Computer Magic]

I find your post interesting. If I'm not being too forward, can I ask what made WDW become just a theme park? What has made WDW lose its magic? I'm curious if it was some WDW did (e.g. ticket prices) or didn't do (e.g. no new atractions). To the point of this thread, was it somehow related to DVC? Do you think you'd feel the same if you were a DVC member?

We actually looked into DVC at one time back in 2007, but the decline in the parks, lower quality product and lack of new attractions kept us out. The atmosphere has changed over the years from guest entitlement (rudeness), lack of magical CM and quality product (merchandise, food, etc), and higher cost. Some of it is us getting older and WDW started catering to young children. The removal of PI is one example but the newer rides are geared to young children. I can stay home to play video games or watch something on a TV screen.

 

[menamechris]

All of the things that have been cited as the downfall of EPCOT and WDW are just opinions or sometimes outright falsehoods.

You, and the other gripers, need to learn the difference between facts and opinions. Just saying it ad nauseum doesn't make it so.

And to reiterate my point this thread comes from a tremendously cynical place, albeit a popular one around here, that just assumes the parks failing, and I find that just not to be the case.

Opinions and outright falsehoods? No - not really. They are real, actual things that have occured.

In addition, you can't lay off thousands of cast members during the start of a recession, or cut maintenance staff to a minimal level and achieve the same quality product - regardless of whether YOU perceive it as a guest or not... the fact of the matter is that it has happened - and the product has suffered. Whether it is noticed in your experience or not is in fact where opinion can be stated.

My advice - don't care. Why are you on there debating it? You enjoy the parks, you haven't noticed a decline. Why would you come into a thread and open yourself up to differing opinions for the sole purpose of arguing them? Just keep lovin' WDW like you do... In the meantime, the "naysayers" and "gripers" wil continue to remind TDO that they don't just work for any company...they have chosen to work for a company that has high standards and a vocal consumer based. If they can't handle that - they are free to go work for some other company in some other industry...

 

[menamechris]

But as to the price...the price is my new hope. Higher prices means more discerning customers. A move from higher demand for the product, to higher demands of the product.

If Disney raises prices to that of a five star restaurant, then eventually the McDonald's crowd will be outpriced, leaving the five star crowd - who'll demand their five star product back.

This is actually kind of true - and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. People already save for years and years to visit WDW. And every year, it gets a little more pricey for those families. I think Disney does try to control the quality of guests by prices. They basically say as much in Traditions.

And you don't have to look far for an example. The guest behavior between Universal and Disney are at times very different. Local teenagers can afford a Universal annual pass - and have a tendency to go hang out in the parks on the weekends. Not so much with the price of a Disney annual pass...

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

I never said popular is better. I used the popularity of some rides and attractions to show that what the naysayers keep stating is just their opinions. Just as everything you have cited in your post is an opinion. It is your opinion Horizons is better than M:S. I think it is hands down the opposite, and then you support your contention by disingenuously spinning your descriptions of the rides. M:S is so much more than a spinner. It has a great storyline and the ride is only a portion of the a pavilion that provides a number of exhibits that teach about both the past and future of space travel.

Pointing out when someone's opinion is based on erroneous facts is not insulting. Insinuating they are "ignorant" is insulting.

All of the things that have been cited as the downfall of EPCOT and WDW are just opinions or sometimes outright falsehoods.

You, and the other gripers, need to learn the difference between facts and opinions. Just saying it ad nauseum doesn't make it so.

Almost everything "gripers" have said in this thread are actual facts, not opinions. And whilst my comments about Horizons are indeed an opinion I hold, I used logical justification based in objective fact to explain WHY I hold such an opinion. I don't think someone is ignorant for enjoying Mission Space, but I am able to explain in precise detail why I personally hold the opinion I do.

Though for the opinion-fearing among us, here's the cold hard factual downgrades without any sort of spin to them that I would challenge anyone to try to spin in a positive way (whether you originally enjoyed said entertainment or not). Like the person above me said, opinions are well and fine. But with maintenance and closure of certain attractions with nothing replacing them, it becomes very difficult to defend such statements without looking ridiculous.

- Diamond Horseshoe shuttered
- Wonders of Life Shuttered
- Imagination pavilion downsized, shuttering of the second level as well as the shortening of the ride, and far fewer and less detailed show rooms and animatronics
- The descent scenes of Spaceship Earth completely gone and hidden behind black curtains or painted over with black
- The Yeti not working even for a full year when he was new, and completely stationary during most of his life so far
- Dinosaur containing a number of show effects being broken or turned off (lasers, jumping dinos, etc, Martin's Vids has some good details)
- Still non-working rockwork on the third lift hill of Big Thunder even after a lengthy and otherwise solid refurb
- Numerous animatronic figures on Splash Mountain stationary or not moving to their full extent (including water effects not working at the Laughing Place)
- Anglerfish in Nemo usually doesn't function
- Soarin's videos (especially in Concourse B) have clearly visible large specs of dirt throughout
- Large quantities of lights burned out on both Main Street and even more on Grand Floridian
- Broken mouths on figures in Carousel of Progress AND the American Adventure
- The upkeep of cleanliness in the parks is lower than it once was (this goes along with the lightbulb problem and is also an aspect of maintenance overall).

I won't go on despite the fact that I could. There's something extremely wrong with trying to say ride experiences have been improved with the above issues present in them. I don't mind saying that sort of thing is ignorant because it absolutely is. I respect opinions, but not lies used to justify one (positive or negative).

 

[stlbobby]

No, they are facts of what has happened - and in every case cited, they are REDUCTIONS in what the show is. You may like the new show, but it's still a reduction. And while you like it and defend things like the rope drop is a suitable replacement for actual entertainment.. if you consult with any designers or people who actually BUILT the Disney company into the industry powerhouse it was... they too shun your fanastic additions like the wand.

Seriously.. defending Imagination as better... The wand as an improvement.. Empty SSE decent as better.. Ellen better... you're right, you are polar opposite from those you wish to call the 'minority'.

You're as bad as jt and glossed over by big shiney lights you can't even see the floor dropping out in front of you. No point in trying to break through those glasses you are wear.

They factually happened, but you stated them as factually less, or reduced. That is a value judgement, not a fact. I never said JII was better. I said I liked it better. I never said the wand was an improvement. I said I liked it at the time. I never said SSE's descent was better. I never even said I liked it better. I said many guests like it and enjoy it. The distinction is I understand the difference in my liking something and it being empirically better or worse.

None of those things are worse, you just don't like them. Because WDW isn't catering to your tastes doesn't mean it is failing. This is especially true when many, many guests really like some of those changes. The one thing I can say empirically is there is a much greater variety of experiences at WDW today than in the past. That may not be a positive development for you but it is for me on two fronts. I enjoy the wide array of activities. I like big thrills and interactive rides. I like big shows and amazing technology. I love getting my picture taken with characters. I love a good all-you-can-eat buffet and a fine meal at a signature restaurant.

Even more I love that WDW can appeal to so many people and everyone have a different favorite. I love that for some it is a Stitch hot dog fart and for others it is a round of golf. I am actually moved to tears when I am getting my haircut at the barber shop and the little girl in the next chair getting her first haircut and prepping for BBB is very concerned that she gets the right princess shoes. I am also moved when I see an elderly couple holding hands and snuggling as they sit on a quiet bench at SS. I am just as excited as the little guy dancing because he just got Mickey's autograph. These things all happened to me on my last few visits.

In years pasts I had a cast member send Pooh over with a snow globe for my wife because we were celebrating our anniversary. It didn't appear on my dinner bill and I never asked for it. The hostess just did it. My family got to ride in the AK parade because we were chatting with a cast member and he thought we were so in the spirit he got us in the parade. I had an argument with a flight attendant on my way to WDW and when we checked-in at AKL I was still visibly upset. The cast member that helped us asked if everything was ok and I told her I'd had a bad experience on my flight. I stressed it had nothing to do with WDW. When I got back from lunch there was a fruit basket and personal note wishing me a great stay in my room.

All of these things happened in the last few years not some golden age in the past. I am constantly amazed at the level of service I get and the magic I experience.

I'm done arguing. The naysayers have written there story and will never be happy.

But I want to share one final piece of wisdom another Disney fan shared with me. If you open yourself to the Magic, the magic will open for you. I think the inverse is also true. If you go looking for burned out bulbs you will find burned out bulbs. Maybe, just possibly, WDW hasn't changed in the last twenty years as much as some of the posters on here here have.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I think most guests prefer new Epcot over classic EPCOT Center indeed. The way a McDonalds draws more customers than a five star restaurant.

But as to the price...the price is my new hope. Higher prices means more discerning customers. A move from higher demand for the product, to higher demands of the product.

If Disney raises prices to that of a five star restaurant, then eventually the McDonald's crowd will be outpriced, leaving the five star crowd - who'll demand their five star product back.

I've read elsewhere on this site that Disney is trying to do exactly this, price some value concious shoppers out of the market. (On another thread I provided calculations showing that Magic Kingdom tickets are now twice as expensive as when MK first opened, adjusted for inflation.) I've read suggestions that Disney's business strategy for WDW is to extract more dollars out of fewer guests rather than attract more guests. It seems like they are following Vegas. There was a time when Vegas was chasing large numbers of tourists and families; now it's back to chasing the high rollers.

If your theory is correct, then the answer to this thread, "Has DVC Stalled the Parks and Created Complacency in TDO?", should be "no". DVC is targeted for the Deluxe Resort crowd. If what you suggest is correct then at some point Disney will have to start spending more on WDW to keep these relative "high rollers" entertained. (I hope so since I'm a DVC member!) I'm not optimistic but always hope that Disney senior executives see the light and start spending more on WDW, for what ever reason.

 

[WDW1974]

No, they are facts of what has happened - and in every case cited, they are REDUCTIONS in what the show is. You may like the new show, but it's still a reduction. And while you like it and defend things like the rope drop is a suitable replacement for actual entertainment.. if you consult with any designers or people who actually BUILT the Disney company into the industry powerhouse it was... they too shun your fanastic additions like the wand.

Seriously.. defending Imagination as better... The wand as an improvement.. Empty SSE decent as better.. Ellen better... you're right, you are polar opposite from those you wish to call the 'minority'.

You're as bad as jt and glossed over by big shiney lights you can't even see the floor dropping out in front of you. No point in trying to break through those glasses you are wear.

You are giving it the good old college try, but it seems like trying to have a discussion with a child during a temper tantrum. Just a waste of time ... but at least your free speech has been protected. Mine seems to have not been fought for as hard. But I am sure when you've spent time in Iraq, you can more easily overlook the many warts that WDW has.

I am more than willing to continue the discussion, but I don't see any sense in going back and forth with someone who chooses to be obstinate for the sake of it. He is very comfortable with Walmart quality, more power to him. I am not. Disney is supposed to be a premium brand. They price themselves accordingly. They market themselves that way as well.

I don't consider today's WDW to be a premium product. And that may be opinion, but it's also very much based in the real world.

 

[WDW1974]

Opinions and outright falsehoods? No - not really. They are real, actual things that have occured.

In addition, you can't lay off thousands of cast members during the start of a recession, or cut maintenance staff to a minimal level and achieve the same quality product - regardless of whether YOU perceive it as a guest or not... the fact of the matter is that it has happened - and the product has suffered. Whether it is noticed in your experience or not is in fact where opinion can be stated.

My advice - don't care. Why are you on there debating it? You enjoy the parks, you haven't noticed a decline. Why would you come into a thread and open yourself up to differing opinions for the sole purpose of arguing them? Just keep lovin' WDW like you do... In the meantime, the "naysayers" and "gripers" wil continue to remind TDO that they don't just work for any company...they have chosen to work for a company that has high standards and a vocal consumer based. If they can't handle that - they are free to go work for some other company in some other industry...

Very well said.

Reality and Pixie Dust don't mix well.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

You are giving it the good old college try, but it seems like trying to have a discussion with a child during a temper tantrum.

[...]

I am more than willing to continue the discussion, but I don't see any sense in going back and forth with someone who chooses to be obstinate for the sake of it.

Please, I think you can do without the snide insults. I know I can.

Stlbobby is entitled to his opinion. I am quite confident he holds his views in all sincerity, not just to be obstinate like an ill-disciplined child throwing a temper tantrum. I do not understand why you should talk down to people in such a ghastly manner.

 

[WDW1974]

Please, I think you can do without the snide insults. I know I can.

Stlbobby is entitled to his opinion. I am quite confident he holds his views in all sincerity, not just to be obstinate like an ill-disciplined child throwing a temper tantrum. I do not understand why you should talk down to people in such a ghastly manner.

Really?!! ... Much of a drama queen, Lilly? Ghastly? I love it ... that's a new one.

I call them like I see them. I feel insulted often in real life, but not on a Disney message board despite often getting venom spewed in my direction because people can't handle the truth.

The dude is incredibly insulting when he disparages people with facts as simply what we like and our perceptions, not the reality that he CHOOSES not to see.

When someone is given facts ... and opinions that are based on facts and knowledge and expeerience and chooses to stick his fingers in his ears, I don't respect that.

Is he entitled to his opinion? Sure, this is the USA and all that crap. ... Do I have to treat it on par with more intelligent, reality-based opinions? Hell no.

I hope that wasn't insulting too!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Really?!! ... Much of a drama queen, Lilly?

Totally!

Go on, admit it: you too like it served with some drama.

When someone is given facts ... and opinions that are based on facts and knowledge and experience and chooses to stick his fingers in his ears, I don't respect that.

But why not respect that? Not everybody needs to be of the same persuasion. One can dispute another's facts, while still respecting another's person.

I myself am totally in the doom-and-gloom camp. WDW is a cynical, cartoonified caricature of its former self.

WDW, however, is still very much an enjoyable place too. So people have great times there, then get defensive about WDW here, because the place is near and dear to them. They feel they need to defend WDW against the onslaught of heavy criticism it receives here. Lest there be taken away something from them, their love for the place belittled.
Half the discussions here are along the lines of: 'WDW is crap because effect X is broken' - 'No, the effect isn't broken because I always have a swell vacation'.

Faulty logic everywhere, sloppy facts, people talking about different subjects when they think they are talking about the same thing. Hey, it's a Disney site, not a scientific periodical.
It is all fine, I suppose, except for the annoying name calling, and the sometimes outright 'torches and pitchforks' mob mentality which sometimes takes over, most commonly when one person persists in a defense of Disney.

People are entitled to their peculiar, private opinions, they are even entitled to their private facts too, however peculiar.

 

[flynnibus]

Disney is supposed to be a premium brand. They price themselves accordingly. They market themselves that way as well.

How did you miss when everyone was jumping on me for saying Disney has always been positioned as a premium product. People had a cow! http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/nyt-universal-takes-aim-at-disney.837827

I'm done with stlbobby's view... he's happy he's got new attractions and that is sufficent for him to ignore the poor state of said attractions or the reductions all around. He's fixated on the bright light.. and can't see the paint peeling on the walls in the room. They'd be more than happy if WDW was just some mega rides with empty voids inbetween them and you go back to your motel everynight. People just don't seem to comprehend what made Disney different from the start.. and hence don't notice when Disney is on a path back to average instead of exceptional.

 

[tl77]

I don’t mean to offend but this thread is titled:

Has DVC Stalled the Parks and Created Complacency in TDO?

Does anyone have an opinion on this topic? I've expressed mine several posts ago but it seems as if the thread has wandered a bit off topic. I really am interested in reading people's opinion on what effect DVC has had on WDW. Has DVC had a positive, negative, or no effect on the rest of WDW?

Again, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes but am hoping this thread can get back on topic.

If people buy a DVC then they're also buying admission to the Parks on a yearly basis, and the more people through the gates is how the parks make money, so I don't see how having more people stay on property is bad for the Parks. It's the exact same situation with the value resorts, people staying on Disney property are going to visit the Disney Parks

That being said the parks have seen better days in my opinion, they ruined my favorite attraction JII as other poster mentioned, but I don't see how that relates to the DVC and Resorts, because they are currently expanding Fantasyland, just referbed Big Thunder and are now reimagining Test Track all while building The Grand Floridian DVC and The Art of Animation AT THE SAME TIME?!?! So don't understand how anyone can argue that funds and resources are being diverted from the Parks to the Resorts while they are building in the Parks and Resorts simultaneously

 

[JWG]

If people buy a DVC then they're also buying admission to the Parks on a yearly basis

Not necessarily true. My family (my parents and my wife and I) each own DVC. We've done trips without parks or park tickets. We have family in Sarasota, we've gone to Universal, we've gone to Tampa. We've used our points for DCL, Keystone (CO), Mackinaw Island (my parents), etc.

Either way, agree, DVC is not hurting parks. Repeat guests should only help with higher expectations. Especially those guests making big investments.

 

[disneyrcks]

They factually happened, but you stated them as factually less, or reduced. That is a value judgement, not a fact. I never said JII was better. I said I liked it better. I never said the wand was an improvement. I said I liked it at the time. I never said SSE's descent was better. I never even said I liked it better. I said many guests like it and enjoy it. The distinction is I understand the difference in my liking something and it being empirically better or worse.

None of those things are worse, you just don't like them. Because WDW isn't catering to your tastes doesn't mean it is failing. This is especially true when many, many guests really like some of those changes. The one thing I can say empirically is there is a much greater variety of experiences at WDW today than in the past. That may not be a positive development for you but it is for me on two fronts. I enjoy the wide array of activities. I like big thrills and interactive rides. I like big shows and amazing technology. I love getting my picture taken with characters. I love a good all-you-can-eat buffet and a fine meal at a signature restaurant.

Even more I love that WDW can appeal to so many people and everyone have a different favorite. I love that for some it is a Stitch hot dog fart and for others it is a round of golf. I am actually moved to tears when I am getting my haircut at the barber shop and the little girl in the next chair getting her first haircut and prepping for BBB is very concerned that she gets the right princess shoes. I am also moved when I see an elderly couple holding hands and snuggling as they sit on a quiet bench at SS. I am just as excited as the little guy dancing because he just got Mickey's autograph. These things all happened to me on my last few visits.

In years pasts I had a cast member send Pooh over with a snow globe for my wife because we were celebrating our anniversary. It didn't appear on my dinner bill and I never asked for it. The hostess just did it. My family got to ride in the AK parade because we were chatting with a cast member and he thought we were so in the spirit he got us in the parade. I had an argument with a flight attendant on my way to WDW and when we checked-in at AKL I was still visibly upset. The cast member that helped us asked if everything was ok and I told her I'd had a bad experience on my flight. I stressed it had nothing to do with WDW. When I got back from lunch there was a fruit basket and personal note wishing me a great stay in my room.

All of these things happened in the last few years not some golden age in the past. I am constantly amazed at the level of service I get and the magic I experience.

I'm done arguing. The naysayers have written there story and will never be happy.

But I want to share one final piece of wisdom another Disney fan shared with me. If you open yourself to the Magic, the magic will open for you. I think the inverse is also true. If you go looking for burned out bulbs you will find burned out bulbs. Maybe, just possibly, WDW hasn't changed in the last twenty years as much as some of the posters on here here have.

This is one of the best posts/rebutals (sp) I have EVER read on this forum. Regardless of my position on any of this, your post is well written and well thought out.

 

[Phonedave]

I find your post interesting. If I'm not being too forward, can I ask what made WDW become just a theme park? What has made WDW lose its magic? I'm curious if it was some WDW did (e.g. ticket prices) or didn't do (e.g. no new atractions). To the point of this thread, was it somehow related to DVC? Do you think you'd feel the same if you were a DVC member?

Ticket prices not so much. Luckly I am in a position where I can afford (or could, things have changed, but not in a bad way) week long trips to WDW with AP's every year for me and my kids without much worry. Although I do think prices have become a bit crazy for what amounts to "a vacation"

What has happend, in my opinon, is quality has done downhill. I clearly remember that first trip as an adult. I was prepared for a theme park experience, but everywhere we turned the quality was evident. We stayed on property (Pop Century back then) and I was impressed that the grounds were perfect, the sidewalks immaculate, the busses clean and on time, the front desk was well staffed, the pool was perfectly clean, the staff was friendly, the drink station in the food court had a almost full time person maintaining it. That was just the "value" resort. The parks were the same way. Clean, nothing broken, freshly painted, plants tended (and lots of plants), doors and windows clean, and every corner had something in it - something to do, something to see or experience. There was an overall feel that people CARED about the place, the guests, and the company.

Now the place is in disrepair - not like it's falling apart, but it is not to the level it was. Many of the plants have been removed, and those that remain are not as impressive. Attractions are, well, cheap. Nemo, that's a joke. The queue is very impressive. The ride itself - crap. The angler fish is broken more often than not, there is constant flash photography that CM's do nothing to abate. It's a one sided Omni-mover that passes by TV screens. WDI used to put out innovative products - ones you could not find anywhere else. Now they seem to use an existing product in a semi new way and slap some paint on it. Then watch it break.

I am not a big merchandise junkie, but back in the 90's I at least bought SOME stuff. There was unique and interesting items that were out there. Now, I buy NOTHING. What need to I have for a genericg Oriental Trading items that says "Disney Parks" on it. Oh, I lie, at F&W I dropped $350 on a framed glicee of the theme painting. Why? Because it was uniquie. The artist was there, he signed the back, he drew a sketch of a chef on the back, and we chatted for a while. It is also a LE of 50 printings. (It also goes with my house). If there was more stuff like that, I would be more compelled to buy stuff.

As for do I think I would feel the same if I was a DVC member: I AM a DVC member. Suprising, huh? I enjoy WDW, I still like to go there, I still look foward to going there, it just has a nasty habit now of leaving me feeling flat. Sure there are still some sparks of brillance, but they are punctuated all to often by stretches of mediocracy.

For a stretch there, my kids I would go for 7 - 10 days every summer, and I would also take a few solo trips each year. Now, we are looking at maybe every other year - maybe. Maybe every 3rd. I'll be there the end of this month, and we will see how I feel.

-dave

 

[ScorpionX]

I never really looked at it that way but it brings up a very good question/point. If they have guaranteed income then why try harder on satisfaction. They do definitely put a LOT of effort into marketing and getting every opportunity to bend your ear on the subject while you are on property. I know we did sit down and listen to the sales pitch once and they really did not want you to leave the room without making a commitment. They have answers for every reason why you might not be interested and spin things in creative ways. I realize it works great for some folks just not for us.

Now I am sad because all of this had not occurred to me...

Even though TDO thinks they have those guests "locked in" for 50 years, they still need to improve the parks. People pay to go to Disney to go to the parks, not to stay in their rooms all day. You could easily do that at home just by not waking up in the morning.

 

[GoofGoof]

I don’t mean to offend but this thread is titled:

Has DVC Stalled the Parks and Created Complacency in TDO?

Does anyone have an opinion on this topic? I've expressed mine several posts ago but it seems as if the thread has wandered a bit off topic. I really am interested in reading people's opinion on what effect DVC has had on WDW. Has DVC had a positive, negative, or no effect on the rest of WDW?

To address the specific question: no I don't think DVC has had a negative impact on the rest of WDW. I am a DVC member so I am biased. For me every new DVC resort that opens is a new opportunity to stay somewhere new and exciting. For me the total WDW trip experience includes where you stay, the parks, meals all of it together. I can totally understand how people who are not members would feel indifferent or negative towards Disney spending money on building things they would never really use. It is the equivalent of the princess meet and greet stuff. Does nothing for me personally but tends to be very popular and expanding.

To address the other part of the equation I think DVC has eliminated any new expansion of any new hotel rooms other than maybe value resorts. Economically they make better investments for Disney than new hotel rooms. Someone else pointed out that managements strategy has been to keep people on site longer and to extract more cash from them while they are here. This is evident in ticket pricing, free dining offers and with DVC. Although you can trade in DVC for other destinations someone is going to take your traded in points and use them at WDW. Either way they have someone for a week. As they build more rooms and expand guest capacity they will have increased park ticket revenues which can be used to expand the parks and add new attractions. My point is that having more "captive" guests may actually lead to more growth in the parks not less. It seems that a lot of people feel that having DVC people locked in for 50 years will allow management to ignore the parks. I am just throwing out another view point on this. If someone on the theme park side goes to Disney management with a request to spend a large chunk of money they can use the locked in sales as a base for ensuring that attendance will stay high enough to maintain a return. I will use a sports analogy: the Yankees make enough money from TV contracts and season ticket sales that they could easily field a team with a lower payroll and maximize profit. Instead they spend more hoping to field the best team possible knowing they have guaranteed revenue. Who is to say that Disney management won't take that approach?