Has DVC Stalled the Parks and Created Complacency in TDO?

[flynnibus]

I do not appreciate your tone or personal attacks. I do not need perspective or information. I have been a regular guest at WDW since the late 80's. I have had as many as four vacations in a 12 month period. The longest I have gone without going to a park was just over 15 months, I was in Iraq protecting your right of free speech so you could use that right to attack me on the internet.

Do you really feel the need to pull the vet card to defend your position? What does it have to do with any of the points here. You don't need my perspective or information? Isn't that akin to sticking your head in the sand? So what... you're what.. 25? 27? or so? You probably don't even recall what the parks were like before they started streamlining them. Watch Martin's videos... seriously.

Anyone who doesn't watch Martin's amazing videos is doing themselves a huge disservice. But hey, stick with that plausible deniability position.

You, just like all of the other gripers on this forum and around the internet continue to confuse your personal opinion of things with facts. JII is not empirically worse

No, it's just gone from one of the most popular attractions in the park... to one that is nearly half the original length.. doesn't even HAVE the second half of the pavilion anymore.. and is so 'charming' that it can't even build a line on the best of days. Yeah, some how the minority are pulling a fast one on the majority of guests who have no interest in riding it anymore. Some trick we got there... mind manipulation and all.

I like it better because I never like the Dreamfinder character, but I am smart enough to realize that is my opinion of two versions of the ride not a triumph on TDO's part, just as you disliking the new version does not constitute a failure

My opinion doesn't constitute it a failure - the complete lack of popular appeal and attendance is what constitutes it as a failure.

Anyone not looking at futureworld and asking ' happened' is oblivious or just plain ignorant of what it used to be. Connected to the vast information that is the internet.. there really is no excuse for the later.

 

[stlbobby]

Do you really feel the need to pull the vet card to defend your position? What does it have to do with any of the points here. You don't need my perspective or information? Isn't that akin to sticking your head in the sand? So what... you're what.. 25? 27? or so? You probably don't even recall what the parks were like before they started streamlining them. Watch Martin's videos... seriously.

Anyone who doesn't watch Martin's amazing videos is doing themselves a huge disservice. But hey, stick with that plausible deniability position.



No, it's just gone from one of the most popular attractions in the park... to one that is nearly half the original length.. doesn't even HAVE the second half of the pavilion anymore.. and is so 'charming' that it can't even build a line on the best of days. Yeah, some how the minority are pulling a fast one on the majority of guests who have no interest in riding it anymore. Some trick we got there... mind manipulation and all.



My opinion doesn't constitute it a failure - the complete lack of popular appeal and attendance is what constitutes it as a failure.

Anyone not looking at futureworld and asking ' happened' is oblivious or just plain ignorant of what it used to be. Connected to the vast information that is the internet.. there really is no excuse for the later.

First I am way older than my mid twenties. If you bothered to check my profile before viciously attacking me you'd know I'm 41. And I don't need Martin's videos. I was there. My first visit was in the 70's. I went a few times in the 80's and then really started going regularly in the early 90's when my family bought into DVC. I have been more times than I can count. I have stayed at every resort on property except GF and the new Art of Animation. I know exactly what the parks were like in the "glory" days and I know what they are like now.

As you say, "My opinion doesn't constitute it a failure - the complete lack of popular appeal and attendance is what constitutes it as a failure." The followed by, "Anyone not looking at futureworld and asking ' happened' is oblivious or just plain ignorant of what it used to be." These statements are completely incongruous, because EPCOT had serious attendance problems for years. When it was JII v1, and Horizons, and World of Motion it was literally a joke--late night comedians used it as a punch line regularly, and as recently as the West Wing it was humorously cited as an example of a failure. I personally liked it, but people came away angry. BY your own statements EPCOT is better than '92, because it is regularly filled and people are having a great time.

I like what EPCOT was and I like it now. Soarin' is way better than anything they had in the '90's. M:S is amazing. I liked Horizons, but if it were still around today I doubt I'd ride it, it would be stale. Test Track was fun. Now I am excited to see what it will be.

WDW is great now and it is only getting better.

 

[menamechris]

First I am way older than my mid twenties. If you bothered to check my profile before viciously attacking me you'd know I'm 41. And I don't need Martin's videos. I was there. My first visit was in the 70's. I went a few times in the 80's and then really started going regularly in the early 90's when my family bought into DVC. I have been more times than I can count. I have stayed at every resort on property except GF and the new Art of Animation. I know exactly what the parks were like in the "glory" days and I know what they are like now.

As you say, "My opinion doesn't constitute it a failure - the complete lack of popular appeal and attendance is what constitutes it as a failure." The followed by, "Anyone not looking at futureworld and asking ' happened' is oblivious or just plain ignorant of what it used to be." These statements are completely incongruous, because EPCOT had serious attendance problems for years. When it was JII v1, and Horizons, and World of Motion it was literally a joke--late night comedians used it as a punch line regularly, and as recently as the West Wing it was humorously cited as an example of a failure. I personally liked it, but people came away angry. BY your own statements EPCOT is better than '92, because it is regularly filled and people are having a great time.

I like what EPCOT was and I like it now. Soarin' is way better than anything they had in the '90's. M:S is amazing. I liked Horizons, but if it were still around today I doubt I'd ride it, it would be stale. Test Track was fun. Now I am excited to see what it will be.

WDW is great now and it is only getting better.

You clearly enjoy the place in its current state. Personally, I don't know why you would become a member of a forum that looks at the good and the bad. You see the good. Nothing wrong with that - but you have to give credit and respect to those who also acknowledge the slipping and dumbing down of the experience.

Oh, and you can thank Disney's deep discounts and MYW ticketing scheme as to why all parks are heavily attended. This is how Disney addressed the issue of making half day parks full days, and also enticing people to stayh at the resort longer. Attendance levels as Epcot, DHS, and AK would certainly be lower if people weren't convinced they were visiting them on the cheap...

 

[TinkerBelle8878]

WDW is great now and it is only getting better.

It was great and maybe if it was getting half as much attention as DL and the foreign parks it would be getting better. I'm in awe of what they've done with fixing California Adventure. And WDW is falling to ruin. But there's another DVC in the future.

WDW doesn't even get its own specific Soarin film. To me, that's just lazy. And uneccessary. I like Soarin. I think its a nice ride. Do I think it fits into the pavillion? No. They just crammed it in and rethemed around it. Now that they're back on the nutrition bandwagon, they're minus a show and pavillions promoting health and nutrition.

 

[WDW1974]

WDW is far and away better than it was in 1992. It is so much better now than it ever was it is ridiculous to even talk about it as if it were the same entity.

Just because a small group, and yes it is infinitesimally small compared to the number of WDW visitors and fans, of people get together and gripe on the internet reinforcing their own misconceptions does not make it so.

No, it isn't.

Repeating it ad nasuem won't change a thing.

It isn't as clean or as well maintained. It doesn't have the show quality standards (or adhere to them) that it did in 92. It has far less entertainment. Its merchandising has become all LCD/Walmart crap largely. It has cut real (i.e. unionized) entertainers and left venues like the Diamond Horseshoe empty, while making foamhead greets the primary form of 'entertainment' at WDW. It has closed venues from attractions to full parks and left them to rot. It has gone from having many long time (and full time) CMs to largely a staff of kids/retirees/internationals so they can keep labor costs low. Food is now like an assembly line process instead of a fine meal with a real menu (you know with pages and more than 6-9 entrees). It doesn't have vast green belts as so much of the place has been developed in a 'build out' mind set. It has vast dead zones both in parks and where venues once stood. Standards and training across the board have fallen greatly from 1992. It operated its then three parks with late night hours nightly (depending on season) for ALL guests.

Again, these are facts that you can't refute unless you choose to ignore reality. WDW was a much classier place two decades ago because of the ereasons listed in the paragraph above ...

I get that you like the place, so do I ... but I don't have blinders about reality that you (and many others) clearly do.

WDW isn't the best its ever been. It may be closer to the worst its ever been. That is reality.

 

[WDW1974]

You don't need to bring me into your demeaning and negative vibe. Check occupancy rates at the DVC resorts versus other hotels late 2001 into 2002 and reveiw the moves that were made related to resorts. Those "locked in" guests who apparently "don't care and come no matter what" were the people in the resorts during that time. And, I bet the spent money outside of the resorts... Were they the only guests, of course not, but they had an impact.

And, having read the commentary our of annual meetings and in other places, they're also some of the pickiest guests, not likely to settle.

Negative and demeaning?

Is that what people now refer to the truth?

I don't have access to 2001-02 occupancy rates and neither do you. But it stands to reason that with 3-4 resorts open (vs. what? 15-20 non-DVC resorts) that they'd be easier to fill, especially when people paid upfront for their vacations.

No one ever said DVCers didn't have an impact, just that it was vastly overstated in this thread. It was.

As to being picky, I dunno. If DVCers had the same caring that APers/locals did in Anaheim, then I seriously doubt WDW would be as stale and neglected as it is. I get the bigger feeling (from talking to CMs so second-hand info, for sure) that many more 'picky' guests are really 'entitled' guests who only care about whatever interests them and throw their 'ownership' around when something bothers them. Generally, it sure doesn't seem to be the overall shape of WDW's parks.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

JII is not empirically worse.

I suppose that in the end rides are subjective experiences, like all entertainment.

But to me, stripping a ride of forty percent of its length to make room for a gift shop is very much a downgrade by almost any measurement.
As is stripping a lush late-psychedelic trip in the best Disney tradition of the Pink Elephant Parade, Fantasia and Alice in Wonderland for what is basically a succession of 'neat special effects and show tricks'.
Not to mention, going from two floors to one, emptying out and barring actual entrance to the big crystal structure that is the very hallmark of the pavilion.


I must admit that in 2003 I was rooting for the French defending my right to reason and the truth. (But I'm happy you got home safely and I hope you didn't get hurt)

 

[flynnibus]

First I am way older than my mid twenties. If you bothered to check my profile before viciously attacking me you'd know I'm 41. And I don't need Martin's videos. I was there

Then maybe you need a refresher. Sorry I didn't check your profile, but its hard to imagine how anyone can condition themselves to overlook such gapping holes in what made Disney special just because they opened a few new attractions for you since.

Know what I felt like when I came back to the parks after not going after 93ish to about 2004? I was like 'wow, everyone else has caught up and Disney isn't that special anymore'. The only saving grace has been the water parks and the cruise line. WDW is not the mover it once was. And to sit there and defend Imagination now as better than it was... there obviously is no hope... you've bought into the story hook line and sinker. WDW1974 did a good job of highlighting what we are talking about and adding attractions doesn't negate any of that. If all I wanted was a new ride every year... my regional theme parks offer that. Because that's the only way they get people to make repeat visits. WDW used to be an escape. Now it's getting closer and closer to operating like the local Chuck E Cheese. WDW pulls it's numbers because of its history. It's already showing signs of weakness in maintaining it's status quo.. let alone growth... and the push to monetize everything and manipulate the guest's wallets so heavily as a replacement for actual new customer growth is going to eventually break the backs of the lemmings too.

Really.. making it policy that every CM waves to you as you depart the station doesn't build customer loyalty... it weakens the interactions you do have by making them seem all that more contrived and artificial.

 

[kapeman]

Some Misconceptions.


1) DVC is not a "401(K)" program for Disney - a locked in long term gain. DVC makes NO money off of the yearly dues. They make all of their money off of building and selling resorts. Dues go toward upkeep and the cost of running the DVC - thats it. By law, a timeshare cannot profit off of dues (over the long term). If anything, it is a commitment on Disney's part as well, to keep providing the DVC resport you bought into for the lifetime of your contract. IF they start to slack off, thats what the time share holders meetings are for.

2) Building DVC units does not funnel money away from the park. That is not how a business such as TWDC works. DVC and Parks are two seperate entities with seperate budgets, targets, and requirements. DVC is building more DVC units because DVC is selling units, which creates more free cash for DVC and allows them to bulld more units. DVC is a well run unit (Aluani planning not withstanding) with a great sales force, a unique product, and builds a strong sub-brand within the Disney umbrella. Disney parks and resorts seems to be focused on expense cutting as opposed to revenue generation.

IF anything, DVC may begin to pressure Parks & Resorts into stepping UP their game by saying "look, we have a great product that sells. People love the DVC resorts, they love the DVC brand, but they are getting sick of being repeat customers to your stale parks. Stop relying on the one visit in a lifetime customers, and start concentrating on the repeat crowd, which is our common demographic"

-dave

I think someone has struck upon the truth.

Well stated!

 

[Phonedave]

It isn't as clean or as well maintained. It doesn't have the show quality standards (or adhere to them) that it did in 92. It has far less entertainment. Its merchandising has become all LCD/Walmart crap largely. It has cut real (i.e. unionized) entertainers and left venues like the Diamond Horseshoe empty, while making foamhead greets the primary form of 'entertainment' at WDW. It has closed venues from attractions to full parks and left them to rot. It has gone from having many long time (and full time) CMs to largely a staff of kids/retirees/internationals so they can keep labor costs low. Food is now like an assembly line process instead of a fine meal with a real menu (you know with pages and more than 6-9 entrees). It doesn't have vast green belts as so much of the place has been developed in a 'build out' mind set. It has vast dead zones both in parks and where venues once stood. Standards and training across the board have fallen greatly from 1992. It operated its then three parks with late night hours nightly (depending on season) for ALL guests.

Now WDW1974 and I may not agree on a number of things - and that is fine. But here, I agree with him 100%

I first went to WDW when I was in my teens - the mid 80's

I did not go again until the mid 90's (I missed the 1992 year) and I only went because of the desire of my then wife. I really had no great desire to go to WDW. We ended up going back less than a year later. Why? because of the quality of the parks. Not the characters, not the rides, but the total package. It truly felt like a resort. There was attention to detail, the place was clean and maintained, Cast Members bent over backwards, rides were more than rides - they were experiences, food was not generic slop. That is what got me to go back, again, and again, and again.

Now I continue to go back because of the memories the place holds, and the memories it holds for my kids.

However, if I were to go for the first time today with the parks in their current state, I can pretty much assure you, I would not be a repeat guest. Today's WDW is "nice" but it really is nothing special. It is head and shoulders above 6 Flage, Hershey Park, or Dorney Park, but it lacks that "resort" quality. It is now just a really nice theme park.


-dave

 

[JWG]

Negative and demeaning?

Is that what people now refer to the truth?

I'm referring specifically to:

I hate when folks put untruths out and others choose to believe them ... but I hate ignorance in general

I don't care we disagree - I disagree with people all the time. Heck, we mostly agree that DVC hasn't been the cause of the park downgrades (I think). I dislike people who in the world of anonymous discussion feel the need to throw out such blatantly unecessary and rude comments.

And your opinion doesn't make mine an untruth. Occupancy rates at DVC did not fall through the "tough" run of late 2001-2003 or so. And, at that time, they had 3 resorts not just OKW (OKW, BWV and BCV). Resort occupancy did fall to where resorts were at risk of shuttering and construction stopped.

You don't need to agree with me, more power to you. But your disagrement doesn't make me ingnorant.

 

[Computer Magic]

.

However, if I were to go for the first time today with the parks in their current state, I can pretty much assure you, I would not be a repeat guest. Today's WDW is "nice" but it really is nothing special. It is head and shoulders above 6 Flage, Hershey Park, or Dorney Park, but it lacks that "resort" quality. It is now just a really nice theme park.


-dave

Exactly! My wife really has no desire to go back because it's become a theme park. She use to be the one driving me to book the vacation. I've asked several times over the last 2 years about going back, but she is not jumping at the opportunity. Sure she would go if I just booked it. But WDW lost that loving feeling. What was a vacation destination has become a trip to the theme park. There is no value added especially for the way prices has increased.

 

[stlbobby]

You clearly enjoy the place in its current state. Personally, I don't know why you would become a member of a forum that looks at the good and the bad. You see the good. Nothing wrong with that - but you have to give credit and respect to those who also acknowledge the slipping and dumbing down of the experience.

No I do not have to give those people credit because I do not think the experience is slipping. Just because a really vocal minority say it over, and over, and over again doesn't make it so.

All the naysayers have is there own anecdotal stories, no facts, figures, or hard evidence. They do0n't even have specif stories just a "feel" they keep citing. They ignore their own biases and resort to attacking people's character when they disagree.

I have given several reason why people, especially repeat visitors, might see more issues now than in the past, and I have presented a couple of anecdotes about when TDO has done great things. No one quoted them, refuted them, or even addressed them because it doesn't fit the narrative they have written.

So no I give them no credit.

 

[stlbobby]

It was great and maybe if it was getting half as much attention as DL and the foreign parks it would be getting better. I'm in awe of what they've done with fixing California Adventure. And WDW is falling to ruin. But there's another DVC in the future.

WDW doesn't even get its own specific Soarin film. To me, that's just lazy. And uneccessary. I like Soarin. I think its a nice ride. Do I think it fits into the pavillion? No. They just crammed it in and rethemed around it. Now that they're back on the nutrition bandwagon, they're minus a show and pavillions promoting health and nutrition.

Why does Soarin' have to have a different film? When the brought Pirates to Orlando it was basically the same ride, minor changes due to the physical space, but mostly the same. I don't see anyone clamoring for it to go.

 

[flynnibus]

No I do not have to give those people credit because I do not think the experience is slipping. Just because a really vocal minority say it over, and over, and over again doesn't make it so.

All the naysayers have is there own anecdotal stories, no facts, figures, or hard evidence. They do0n't even have specif stories just a "feel" they keep citing. They ignore their own biases and resort to attacking people's character when they disagree.

Imagination cut in half..
Imageworks shuttered..
How are those not hard facts?

SSE descent
SSE narriation...
Do you like being talked to like you are 8?

Innovations - a dead zone - a quarter of it replaced by a store... another quarter of it replaced by meet&greets. Grand hallways and windows shuttered. Viewing positions simply removed.

UoE - preshow effects removed and replaced with a simple 90s jeopardy/daytime TV replacement
Finale effects removed
Dinosaur AAs stationary vs moving

Living seas - diving well barely used
Seabase Alpha concept simply removed

Land - actual guides replaced by recordings

SSE Wand - left for almost a decade and only removed when someone else paid for it

Do we need to go on? That's just futureworld. Those are hard facts. Where would you like to go next? MK? DHS? DAK? Pick one

I have given several reason why people, especially repeat visitors, might see more issues now than in the past, and I have presented a couple of anecdotes about when TDO has done great things. No one quoted them, refuted them, or even addressed them because it doesn't fit the narrative they have written.

Because a good thing doesn't make a bad thing 'go away' - especially when they continue to repeat the bad or simply leave it there to rot and hope no one complains enough.

 

[stlbobby]

No, it isn't.

Repeating it ad nasuem won't change a thing.

It isn't as clean or as well maintained. It doesn't have the show quality standards (or adhere to them) that it did in 92. It has far less entertainment. Its merchandising has become all LCD/Walmart crap largely. It has cut real (i.e. unionized) entertainers and left venues like the Diamond Horseshoe empty, while making foamhead greets the primary form of 'entertainment' at WDW. It has closed venues from attractions to full parks and left them to rot. It has gone from having many long time (and full time) CMs to largely a staff of kids/retirees/internationals so they can keep labor costs low. Food is now like an assembly line process instead of a fine meal with a real menu (you know with pages and more than 6-9 entrees). It doesn't have vast green belts as so much of the place has been developed in a 'build out' mind set. It has vast dead zones both in parks and where venues once stood. Standards and training across the board have fallen greatly from 1992. It operated its then three parks with late night hours nightly (depending on season) for ALL guests.

Again, these are facts that you can't refute unless you choose to ignore reality. WDW was a much classier place two decades ago because of the ereasons listed in the paragraph above ...

I get that you like the place, so do I ... but I don't have blinders about reality that you (and many others) clearly do.

WDW isn't the best its ever been. It may be closer to the worst its ever been. That is reality.

It's not the reality. It is your perception.

Nothing you stated in the above paragraph is a fact. They are all your perceptions and ideas. Even when you say things that seem like facts they are wrong. Empirically there is way more entertainment in each park now than in '92. Sure the Diamond Horseshoe is gone, but there are major shows outside the castle all day and the rope drop has become a serious production. The resorts run movies all the time and have performers during the holidays and other busy times. But proving numerically that there is more entertainment now won't affect you because you have decided there is less.

Now we can argue about quality. And we'd disagree. I think Festival of the Lion King, Finding Nemo, and the Jedi Training Academy are amazing shows and better than anything from the early '90's. But you didn't say that. You said, "It has far less entertainment."

The rest of your contentions are just as unfounded. You may well believe them. But it doesn't make them true.

 

[stlbobby]

Then maybe you need a refresher. Sorry I didn't check your profile, but its hard to imagine how anyone can condition themselves to overlook such gapping holes in what made Disney special just because they opened a few new attractions for you since.

Know what I felt like when I came back to the parks after not going after 93ish to about 2004? I was like 'wow, everyone else has caught up and Disney isn't that special anymore'. The only saving grace has been the water parks and the cruise line. WDW is not the mover it once was. And to sit there and defend Imagination now as better than it was... there obviously is no hope... you've bought into the story hook line and sinker. WDW1974 did a good job of highlighting what we are talking about and adding attractions doesn't negate any of that. If all I wanted was a new ride every year... my regional theme parks offer that. Because that's the only way they get people to make repeat visits. WDW used to be an escape. Now it's getting closer and closer to operating like the local Chuck E Cheese. WDW pulls it's numbers because of its history. It's already showing signs of weakness in maintaining it's status quo.. let alone growth... and the push to monetize everything and manipulate the guest's wallets so heavily as a replacement for actual new customer growth is going to eventually break the backs of the lemmings too.

Really.. making it policy that every CM waves to you as you depart the station doesn't build customer loyalty... it weakens the interactions you do have by making them seem all that more contrived and artificial.

I don't need a refresher. You need to realize that just because you do not like something doesn't mean it is bad or a failure.

 

[stlbobby]

Imagination cut in half..
Imageworks shuttered..
How are those not hard facts?

SSE descent
SSE narriation...
Do you like being talked to like you are 8?

Innovations - a dead zone - a quarter of it replaced by a store... another quarter of it replaced by meet&greets. Grand hallways and windows shuttered. Viewing positions simply removed.

UoE - preshow effects removed and replaced with a simple 90s jeopardy/daytime TV replacement
Finale effects removed
Dinosaur AAs stationary vs moving

Living seas - diving well barely used
Seabase Alpha concept simply removed

Land - actual guides replaced by recordings

SSE Wand - left for almost a decade and only removed when someone else paid for it

Do we need to go on? That's just futureworld. Those are hard facts. Where would you like to go next? MK? DHS? DAK? Pick one

These are not facts they are your opinions.

SSE - many people like the descent. Not the grumpy, leave it as a museum crowd, but average park visitors like the end of SSE. They like having their picture added into the story.

UoE - Almost everyone likes the Ellen stuff better. I'm not a fan of Ellen at all, but even I like the preshow better.

Living Seas - Again most visitors like the Nemo version better. I personally could take or leave it, but it isn't a fact that it is worse. It is just different.

I loved the wand. It was fun when it was there and now I am fine with it gone.

You really need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. All of the things you noted, other than the size of JII, are opinions. Ironically most of the things you noted, while horrible to you, have made those attractions far more popular. Ellen and Nemo are huge hits with the general public.

You also ignore the addition of two major attractions, Soarin' and M:S. They have vastly improved futureworld. And while Soaring is admittedly just a thrill ride. M:S as a pavilion definitely retains the original spirit of EPCOT as it is one of the most educational and celebratory places in all of WDW.

So you can cherry pick your opinions, call them facts, and get all the other gripers to jump on board, but none of that makes you right.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

'74 and flynnibus both gave excellent examples of downgrades WDW has suffered from that it didn't 18-20 years prior to now. '74 is also a well-known and respected insider to the Disney company such that even the usual insiders have been quoted as envious of his connections, he has a first hand view of the internal decline in quality of the Walt Disney Company as a whole. It's ok to still like WDW, I still do as well. But I'm not so close-minded that I'm going to deny the severe issues the place has and lie to myself and others.

One thing that really helped my own objectivity is that I didn't experience the decline gradually, I went without visiting WDW for a rather long period of time and all the things that had been declining over the past two decades or so hit me all at once. It was quite an eye opener, and I wasn't even looking for problems. From the more minor issues such as massive quantity of burned out lights (Grand Floridian and Main Street) to major and essential show elements like broken effects and animatronics (Yeti, most Splash Mountain figures, Carousel of Progress, Nemo's Angler Fish, and even the rocks in the just-refurbed Big Thunder, I could go on and on here). That's not to mention rides or quality of entertainment that are either shuttered (Diamond Horseshoe, Wonders of Life, etc) or rebuilt cheaper or with far fewer show and figure pieces (Imagination, Test Track, Mission Space, SSE).

I fail to see how covering the entire ending scene of SSE with curtains and black paint is some sort of upgrade any way you look at it, replacing it with a very cheap looking Flash animation (and removing the figures and show scenes, only to open the attraction with the ending scene completely unfinished). That's not even to mention the script.

Replacing an elaborate ride like Horizons, filled with intricately detailed sets and figures all dedicated to showcasing numerous possible futures for mankind with what basically amounts to an unfuturistic spinning simulator is a notable downgrade to Epcot's theme. Horizons' only flaw is what most of Future World attractions had- lack of proper updating to keep them fresh with our new conceptions on what the future might be like. For a so-called new futuristic ride, Mission Space not only replaced an extremely elaborate ride with richly detailed set pieces and figures with a spinning simulator, it didn't address the problem with Future World rides lacking any sort of futurism to them. It's rooted more in the past than even Horizons was, and has aged even worse that Horizons has. The same problems are present with Test Track, hoping they're alleviated somewhat with the refurb but we'll see.

Opinions are all well and good (as long as you don't try to insult someone for pointing out facts or downplay their evidence as worthless), but there's a line that a wise and objective person will draw at some point when in the end you're actually looking at an objectively inferior product (regardless of how popular it is). For example, if Disney were to rip out Big Thunder's themeing (all rockwork, scenery, figures gone) but speed the ride up and add some loops to it to make it more thrilling, it would probably draw a lot of people to it and some might even consider it some sort of upgrade to what was previously there. But that really doesn't say anything about a ride's core objective quality. McDonald's food is incredibly popular, possibly the most popular food place in the US. But it would take an incredibly ignorant person to try to argue the food is superior to a 5 star restaurant. Popular does not equal better.

 

[stlbobby]

'74 and flynnibus both gave excellent examples of downgrades WDW has suffered from that it didn't 18-20 years prior to now. '74 is also a well-known and respected insider to the Disney company such that even the usual insiders have been quoted as envious of his connections, he has a first hand view of the internal decline in quality of the Walt Disney Company as a whole. It's ok to still like WDW, I still do as well. But I'm not so close-minded that I'm going to deny the severe issues the place has and lie to myself and others.

One thing that really helped my own objectivity is that I didn't experience the decline gradually, I went without visiting WDW for a rather long period of time and all the things that had been declining over the past two decades or so hit me all at once. It was quite an eye opener, and I wasn't even looking for problems. From the more minor issues such as massive quantity of burned out lights (Grand Floridian and Main Street) to major and essential show elements like broken effects and animatronics (Yeti, most Splash Mountain figures, Carousel of Progress, Nemo's Angler Fish, and even the rocks in the just-refurbed Big Thunder, I could go on and on here). That's not to mention rides or quality of entertainment that are either shuttered (Diamond Horseshoe, Wonders of Life, etc) or rebuilt cheaper or with far fewer show and figure pieces (Imagination, Test Track, Mission Space, SSE).

I fail to see how covering the entire ending scene of SSE with curtains and black paint is some sort of upgrade any way you look at it, replacing it with a very cheap looking Flash animation (and removing the figures and show scenes, only to open the attraction with the ending scene completely unfinished). That's not even to mention the script.

Replacing an elaborate ride like Horizons, filled with intricately detailed sets and figures all dedicated to showcasing numerous possible futures for mankind with what basically amounts to an unfuturistic spinning simulator is a notable downgrade to Epcot's theme. Horizons' only flaw is what most of Future World attractions had- lack of proper updating to keep them fresh with our new conceptions on what the future might be like. For a so-called new futuristic ride, Mission Space not only replaced an extremely elaborate ride with richly detailed set pieces and figures with a spinning simulator, it didn't address the problem with Future World rides lacking any sort of futurism to them. It's rooted more in the past than even Horizons was, and has aged even worse that Horizons has. The same problems are present with Test Track, hoping they're alleviated somewhat with the refurb but we'll see.

Opinions are all well and good (as long as you don't try to insult someone for pointing out facts or downplay their evidence as worthless), but there's a line that a wise and objective person will draw at some point when in the end you're actually looking at an objectively inferior product (regardless of how popular it is). For example, if Disney were to rip out Big Thunder's themeing (all rockwork, scenery, figures gone) but speed the ride up and add some loops to it to make it more thrilling, it would probably draw a lot of people to it and some might even consider it some sort of upgrade to what was previously there. But that really doesn't say anything about a ride's core objective quality. McDonald's food is incredibly popular, possibly the most popular food place in the US. But it would take an incredibly ignorant person to try to argue the food is superior to a 5 star restaurant. Popular does not equal better.

I never said popular is better. I used the popularity of some rides and attractions to show that what the naysayers keep stating is just their opinions. Just as everything you have cited in your post is an opinion. It is your opinion Horizons is better than M:S. I think it is hands down the opposite, and then you support your contention by disingenuously spinning your descriptions of the rides. M:S is so much more than a spinner. It has a great storyline and the ride is only a portion of the a pavilion that provides a number of exhibits that teach about both the past and future of space travel.

Pointing out when someone's opinion is based on erroneous facts is not insulting. Insinuating they are "ignorant" is insulting.

All of the things that have been cited as the downfall of EPCOT and WDW are just opinions or sometimes outright falsehoods.

You, and the other gripers, need to learn the difference between facts and opinions. Just saying it ad nauseum doesn't make it so.

And to reiterate my point this thread comes from a tremendously cynical place, albeit a popular one around here, that just assumes the parks failing, and I find that just not to be the case.