Has DVC Stalled the Parks and Created Complacency in TDO?

[Computer Magic]

It seems to me that Disney's strategy for WDW has changed in the past 15 years or so...

For the first 25 years the game plan was "build new rides and parks to keep people coming back" Mk opened in '71, added Space Mountain in '75, Big thunder in '80, Epcot '82, MGM '89, AK '98 ect...

But in the early 90's after Universal Orlando opened the strategy shifted from "keep building new stuff" to "keep the guests on the property". DVC is a way to keep guests on property, but so are the Value resorts and the Magical Express Bus system

And instead of building new rides to keep guests coming back they've been adding special events... The Star Wars Weekends, Food and Wine fest, Flower Show, Halloween and Christmas party nights don't just bring people in the parks but they bring them in during what used to be called "the off- season". 20 years ago the parks closed around dusk in the winter months, now they stay open late all year, there really isn't any "off-season" anymore

So I don't think they've stopped building rides because of the DVC, think they've found new ways of getting people in the door

I see your viewpoint. They are trying to keep people on perperty and DVC is one way to keep a people on property and recieve a continious revenue stream. I still believe, DVC is a way to keep people on property but this has caused the parks to take a back seat.

I've noticed there isn't a off-season and the prices reflect that as well. They add these events and charge a seperate entrance fee.

Disney is finding new ways to get our money w/o really investing in the product. They repackage what use to be part of the magic and now charge a preminum price.

 

[Computer Magic]

Michael, I believe your conduct has resulted from my clear and unambiguous statements to you and the Board of Directors that after 19 years at the helm you are no longer the best person to run the Walt Disney Company. You had a very successful first 10-plus years at the Company in partnership with Frank Wells, for which I salute you. But, since Frank's untimely death in 1994, the Company has lost its focus, its creative energy, and its heritage.​

​

I always thought Frank's death was a big blow to Disney. Roy was right and saw the train wreck that was about to happen. Sadly that is no Disney fighting for the Disney legacy.

 

[disneyrcks]

There is absolutely nothing I can say to your incorrect 'opinion' (and, yes, opinions can be incorrect) without me just ripping into the comments (like a zombie on flesh) and therefore you, so all I'll say is if you do believe what I put in bold than I feel sorry for you, but enjoy the Pixie Dust. Oh, and know you are exactly the kind of guest that TDO wants.

I feel sorry for you. You seem to be fighting a war you won't win. Do you think that WDW will become what you want it to be? If you do then I can understand the effort you put into your discussion of it. However, it may be a lost cause and I wonder at what point would you consider that possibility? When will you decide to throw in the towel? At what point does your criticism become redundant? An old person can only use cream to prevent their wrinkles for so long.

 

[disney fan 13]

^sigh...

 

[disneyrcks]

^sigh...

Save your sigh. I realize things have slipped at WDW too. My point is do you think it will get better? I appreciate your opinion if you think it will rise again and be what you think it should be. But, do you really think it will happen? Will your concerns be heard? If not, at what point do you move on? I think it is a fair question.

I am not being a pixie duster or whatever you guys call it. I am actually saying that Disney has dropped the ball on many things. I do still like to vacation there and will continue to do so. But when do you guys actually draw the line? You sigh, but my post is an honest question. What is your final straw?

 

[disney fan 13]

My final straw will be when my trips become unenjoyable. Even though things have slipped dramatically at WDW I still do enjoy the place. For how much longer, I can't say for sure... Weather it be because of the price become more then the value of product, becomes unrecognizable from the place I love, or because standards at the park continue to fall.

Do I think things will get better? Yes, but it would require most of TDO (anD Burbank )to go out the way of Paul Pressler or Micheal Eisner.

 

[tl77]

I see your viewpoint. They are trying to keep people on perperty and DVC is one way to keep a people on property and recieve a continious revenue stream. I still believe, DVC is a way to keep people on property but this has caused the parks to take a back seat.

I've noticed there isn't a off-season and the prices reflect that as well. They add these events and charge a seperate entrance fee.

Disney is finding new ways to get our money w/o really investing in the product. They repackage what use to be part of the magic and now charge a preminum price.

Well I definitely don't care drop in quality control in the parks in recent years, but really don't think the DVC's are to blame, because they're not that big a deal to build, most of them are just carbon copies of the existing hotels architecture, Bay Lake Tower is the only real exception. And there's no way that the Parks are taking a back seat to the Vacation Clubs because no one buys a Vacation Club to sit in the Vacation Club they buy them to visit the Parks, the Parks are the draw.
But I think the reason they aren't building up the parks, is because the really don't need to. There's some much stuff that's currently in the Parks that the average family can't possible see it all in a typical 5 night trip. I just realized today that I haven't been on The Tower of Terror in 13 years! It's not that I don't like it, there's just only so much I can squeeze in each time I'm there.
The thing that's changed is that the parents and the children of the 70's and 80's are now adults with children of their own. If you have a spouse and say two 5-year-old children, chances are they want to get dressed up like princesses and pirates, meet and greet the characters and ride "Dumbo", but in 5 years from now they aren't going to want to do any of that anymore because they'll finally be old enough to ride "Space Mountain" for the first time. If you're 10 "Space Mountain" is new to you, and they don't really need a dozen "Space Mountains" because there isn't enough time to ride that many
Would I personally would I like to see some spectacular new attraction every time I visit? Absolutely! But if you're 10 "Space Mountain" is new to you, and they don't really need a dozen "Space Mountains" because there isn't enough time to ride that many, and that's the paradigm shift, new rides are as big a priority for Disney as new hotel space is for the past 40 years of exponentially growing families

 

[ptdreher]

Some Misconceptions.


1) DVC is not a "401(K)" program for Disney - a locked in long term gain. DVC makes NO money off of the yearly dues. They make all of their money off of building and selling resorts. Dues go toward upkeep and the cost of running the DVC - thats it. By law, a timeshare cannot profit off of dues (over the long term). If anything, it is a commitment on Disney's part as well, to keep providing the DVC resport you bought into for the lifetime of your contract. IF they start to slack off, thats what the time share holders meetings are for.

2) Building DVC units does not funnel money away from the park. That is not how a business such as TWDC works. DVC and Parks are two seperate entities with seperate budgets, targets, and requirements. DVC is building more DVC units because DVC is selling units, which creates more free cash for DVC and allows them to bulld more units. DVC is a well run unit (Aluani planning not withstanding) with a great sales force, a unique product, and builds a strong sub-brand within the Disney umbrella. Disney parks and resorts seems to be focused on expense cutting as opposed to revenue generation.

IF anything, DVC may begin to pressure Parks & Resorts into stepping UP their game by saying "look, we have a great product that sells. People love the DVC resorts, they love the DVC brand, but they are getting sick of being repeat customers to your stale parks. Stop relying on the one visit in a lifetime customers, and start concentrating on the repeat crowd, which is our common demographic"

-dave

Excellent response, you beat me to it. A couple of other things to consider:
* DVC members also pay to get into the parks like everyone else and spend money on dining plans and mechandise.
* With the dues being paid every year as well I think the DVC members are doing more than the average person to support the upkeep of the properties. The guaranteed 10% DVC attendance every year is slowing the rate of ticket price increases.

 

[flavious27]

I can't help but feel lately with DVC sprouting all over WDW property that it is part of the reason why progress in the parks is impeded.

Not just because of the money that is funneled into them (although that's part of it) but because once Disney has so many hundreds of thousands or millions of people locked in to vacationing there for the next 50 years, they don't have to keep it as fresh and exciting to entice guests. They already have your money and commitment.

Sure competition then becomes the driving force. But do you think if there wasn't DVC we would be seeing some spectacular advances in the parks? Would TDO feel less satisfied with the state of things and more aware of the deficiencies in the parks?

Well if you mean the gates, I don't think so because disney still needs your money for tickets. The price of your membership is suppose to cover the cost to build the resort. This is partly why tdo and disney co like dvc, their construction and maintenance costs for resorts are being paid faster. If disney was able to have an all dvc dcl ship, there would be a fleet much larger than the current one.

In the end though, disney wants you to come back so that you spend money on park tickets and get meals from a disney restaurant. It is partly why they let you bank and borrow, it keeps you in reedy creek longer.

As for the regular hotels, disney is going to keep building them because they charge more per room than the timeshare. The direction I don't like is where disney is converting moderates into themed rooms and charging more, that is going to be their direction because they earn more with those themed rooms.

 

[WDW1974]

With all due respect - do you have a source for that assumption? In 2001, DVC consisted of, I believe, Old Key West and the Boadwalk Villas at the time. In 2001, it really was Disney's best kept secret. DVC really didn't start to take off until the mid to late 2000's as the cruise line continued to develop and Adventures By Disney was introduced - giving them more to market and promote. In 2001 - while the select DVC members who had signed up may have helped - WDW has locals and Floridians to thank for keeping the lights on. Which incidently didn't keep them from firing thousands of cast members, Imagineers that would end up working for the competion, and seriously considering operational changes that we probably never would have gotten reversed had they been implemented...

Great post and so, so true.

DVCers did NOT keep the lights on in the dark days post-9/11, Floridians (and others from drive-in states) did. Locals especially played a pivotal role. DVC at WDW was about three resorts -- OKW, BW and WLV, I believe ... BCV came a bit after.

But DVC was a tiny piece of the puzzle and its members weren't using points to prevent CBR from being shuttered for a time and PO being closed for over a year.

I hate when folks put untruths out and others choose to believe them ... but I hate ignorance in general.

 

[WDW1974]

I feel sorry for you. You seem to be fighting a war you won't win. Do you think that WDW will become what you want it to be? If you do then I can understand the effort you put into your discussion of it. However, it may be a lost cause and I wonder at what point would you consider that possibility? When will you decide to throw in the towel? At what point does your criticism become redundant? An old person can only use cream to prevent their wrinkles for so long.

I don't need or desire you to feel sorry for me, Jessica.

I feel sorry for people who refuse to see WDW for what it is and instead choose to either live in the past or ignore the current reality. WDW of 2012 is a pale imitation of what it was in say 1992. Some say ignorance is bliss, I say ignorance is Pixie Dust and Disney marketing magic.

I have no idea if WDW will ever be what I want it to be, which is simply the best it can and something worthy of being called WALT DISNEY World. That depends on leadership at the company and the vision of those who will follow Iger (he is nothing, a manager who is in it for the money and the power trip, no passion for the parks beyond the bottom line).

But so long as I care and people I know in the company care, I will not throw in any towel. You don't like reading me? They have a child-like way of dealing with that here (one that I don't use for anyone ... even good old Frank from New Mexico) in some sort of 'ignore button'. But my tune isn't changing until the product changes.

You think my criticisms of WDW are tired? I think reading comments about how WDW has never been better are tiresome, tedious and flat out BS ... but I still wade through them.

 

[disneyrcks]

I don't need or desire you to feel sorry for me, Jessica.

I feel sorry for people who refuse to see WDW for what it is and instead choose to either live in the past or ignore the current reality. WDW of 2012 is a pale imitation of what it was in say 1992. Some say ignorance is bliss, I say ignorance is Pixie Dust and Disney marketing magic.

I have no idea if WDW will ever be what I want it to be, which is simply the best it can and something worthy of being called WALT DISNEY World. That depends on leadership at the company and the vision of those who will follow Iger (he is nothing, a manager who is in it for the money and the power trip, no passion for the parks beyond the bottom line).

But so long as I care and people I know in the company care, I will not throw in any towel. You don't like reading me? They have a child-like way of dealing with that here (one that I don't use for anyone ... even good old Frank from New Mexico) in some sort of 'ignore button'. But my tune isn't changing until the product changes.

You think my criticisms of WDW are tired? I think reading comments about how WDW has never been better are tiresome, tedious and flat out BS ... but I still wade through them.

I think my "feel sorry" comment was not appropriate. What I mean is that I feel sorry that you seem to yearn for a Disney "past". I don't think I said "I do not like reading me" and I will use the ignore as I see fit. But I honestly wanted to know at what point does someone throw in the towel. It seems Next Gen is here to stay, but I do hope there will be a management shake up. The critisms are tired. Not because they are void of truth but because they seem to fall on deaf ears. I think it is great that you will not throw in the towel but, what happens when things keep going the way they are? What happens when there are no changes? At what point is the towel thrown?

 

[menamechris]

I think my "feel sorry" comment was not appropriate. What I mean is that I feel sorry that you seem to yearn for a Disney "past". I don't think I said "I do not like reading me" and I will use the ignore as I see fit. But I honestly wanted to know at what point does someone throw in the towel. It seems Next Gen is here to stay, but I do hope there will be a management shake up. The critisms are tired. Not because they are void of truth but because they seem to fall on deaf ears. I think it is great that you will not throw in the towel but, what happens when things keep going the way they are? What happens when there are no changes? At what point is the towel thrown?

If CA locals had taken that approach, Harriss and Pressler would still be in charge. When those who know don't speak, and those who care won't listen....change can't come about. WDW's problems could be eliminated by getting rid of a few at the top, and filling those positions that will actually care to listen to guests and cast members, and look at the long-term picture of the resort - not just their short-term bonus goals and budget strategies.

 

[WDW1974]

I think my "feel sorry" comment was not appropriate. What I mean is that I feel sorry that you seem to yearn for a Disney "past". I don't think I said "I do not like reading me" and I will use the ignore as I see fit. But I honestly wanted to know at what point does someone throw in the towel. It seems Next Gen is here to stay, but I do hope there will be a management shake up. The critisms are tired. Not because they are void of truth but because they seem to fall on deaf ears. I think it is great that you will not throw in the towel but, what happens when things keep going the way they are? What happens when there are no changes? At what point is the towel thrown?

I yearn for the Disney quality/standards of the past, not necessarily the product of say 1990 (I don't need to see the Golden Girls home ... the Disney Afternoon stage show ... the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ... or even the big stuff like 20,000K or Horizons or the original Journey into Imagination etc)

And it isn't simply a past, either. When I visit DLR or TDL or take a DCL voyage, I get the Disney quality I was conditioned to expect in my first two decades of visiting WDW and then some. I have no idea at what point someone throws in the towel, but I am not about to. I hope I never have to, but if I do, then I will and move on to the products of companies that do care.

I don't for one second believe the criticism are falling on deaf ears, I know they aren't. Not simply here where when I joined four years ago probably 80% of the readers thought I was a Disney-hating nut and I'd venture to say that has changed drastically, but in more important places too.

Oh, and one other thing ... but CHANGE is coming.

 

[TinkerBelle8878]

I yearn for the Disney quality/standards of the past, not necessarily the product of say 1990 (I don't need to see the Golden Girls home ... the Disney Afternoon stage show ... the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ... or even the big stuff like 20,000K or Horizons or the original Journey into Imagination etc)

And it isn't simply a past, either. When I visit DLR or TDL or take a DCL voyage, I get the Disney quality I was conditioned to expect in my first two decades of visiting WDW and then some. I have no idea at what point someone throws in the towel, but I am not about to. I hope I never have to, but if I do, then I will and move on to the products of companies that do care.

I don't for one second believe the criticism are falling on deaf ears, I know they aren't. Not simply here where when I joined four years ago probably 80% of the readers thought I was a Disney-hating nut and I'd venture to say that has changed drastically, but in more important places too.

Oh, and one other thing ... but CHANGE is coming.

I agree with the quality aspect although I loved seeing something on the backlot tour that was recognizable like the GG house. And I fully believe that the imagination and talent put into the original Journey was far better than what exists there now. Just the original rides and attractions had quality to them. Thought. Storyline. Not just sitting and at what's basically a video screen and scoring points (I'm not unaccustomed to WDW waits. But 80 mins for TSM is insane and I will never do it again unless its a walk on). There is so much that needs to be done and improved in the existing parks before a 5th gate should ever be entertained.

DHS/MGM- They need to do something. Major. Or stop charging a full day admission to it and halve the price to this park. This park even when it opened was a half day at best. I guess that's why TSM is such a long line. They have to make sure this seems like a full day.

I'm all for change as long as its in the right direction. Clearly what I consider the golden age of WDW, 1980s-mid 1990s isn't returning. But wouldn't a little show about nutrition have done some good about now instead of being gutted? No foresight at all.

 

[disneyrcks]

I yearn for the Disney quality/standards of the past, not necessarily the product of say 1990 (I don't need to see the Golden Girls home ... the Disney Afternoon stage show ... the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ... or even the big stuff like 20,000K or Horizons or the original Journey into Imagination etc)

And it isn't simply a past, either. When I visit DLR or TDL or take a DCL voyage, I get the Disney quality I was conditioned to expect in my first two decades of visiting WDW and then some. I have no idea at what point someone throws in the towel, but I am not about to. I hope I never have to, but if I do, then I will and move on to the products of companies that do care.

I don't for one second believe the criticism are falling on deaf ears, I know they aren't. Not simply here where when I joined four years ago probably 80% of the readers thought I was a Disney-hating nut and I'd venture to say that has changed drastically, but in more important places too.

Oh, and one other thing ... but CHANGE is coming.

I will say that my husband is the big Disney guy in our family. And he has noticed the decline. He doesn't care too much and still loves to go. So I was shocked when he said he noticed the difference. We will still go to Disney and absolutely enjoy it but I am hoping for some change too. It would be very nice to get some new love at WDW. It would also be nice to get some appreciation as repeat guests! I hate that they do not give any love to their regular or frequent guests!

 

[disneyrcks]

If CA locals had taken that approach, Harriss and Pressler would still be in charge. When those who know don't speak, and those who care won't listen....change can't come about. WDW's problems could be eliminated by getting rid of a few at the top, and filling those positions that will actually care to listen to guests and cast members, and look at the long-term picture of the resort - not just their short-term bonus goals and budget strategies.

I hope they would but from what I hear/read WDW is very different from DL in terms of guests.

 

[menamechris]

I hope they would but from what I hear/read WDW is very different from DL in terms of guests.

It's simply a matter of the squeakiest wheel getting oiled first. WDW may make different entertainment decisions based on who their core audience is - but business is business. It doesn't matter if you are a group of vocal locals - or guests from around the world - if corporate starts noticing that people are not pleased with decisions and plans being made, something will change. Disney truly wants to please the guests, because that's who they get their billions from. Management and executive positions are a disposable threat to profit...

 

[Kiff]

I yearn for the Disney quality/standards of the past, not necessarily the product of say 1990 (I don't need to see the Golden Girls home ... the Disney Afternoon stage show ... the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ... or even the big stuff like 20,000K or Horizons or the original Journey into Imagination etc)

And it isn't simply a past, either. When I visit DLR or TDL or take a DCL voyage, I get the Disney quality I was conditioned to expect in my first two decades of visiting WDW and then some. I have no idea at what point someone throws in the towel, but I am not about to. I hope I never have to, but if I do, then I will and move on to the products of companies that do care.

I don't for one second believe the criticism are falling on deaf ears, I know they aren't. Not simply here where when I joined four years ago probably 80% of the readers thought I was a Disney-hating nut and I'd venture to say that has changed drastically, but in more important places too.

Oh, and one other thing ... but CHANGE is coming.

Count me as one of the 80% back 4 years ago. Some credit to you spirit for changing my tune, but alas most of the credit has to go to Disney. For a while I thought the updates at the HM and the expansion in FL were signs of progress. As time passes though it gets harder and harder to ignore the never ending problems. Everyone has their own list of deficiencies that just keeps getting longer. I think mine has somewhere around 50 points now. Some are broad like the lack of any new true E-tickets in the parks. Others are small like the service I receive at a Disney restaurant without having the magical dinning plan. Even the most devoted (deluded?) fanboy would have a couple things on that list along with a poor justification that clears Disney of any fault. For me the turning point was the scaled down refurb of SM. I still had some hope even after that but it's been one crushing blow after another since.

That "change" can't come soon enough. I'm going old and grey here waiting for things to turn around.

 

[stlbobby]

I feel sorry for people who refuse to see WDW for what it is and instead choose to either live in the past or ignore the current reality. WDW of 2012 is a pale imitation of what it was in say 1992. Some say ignorance is bliss, I say ignorance is Pixie Dust and Disney marketing magic.

WDW is far and away better than it was in 1992. It is so much better now than it ever was it is ridiculous to even talk about it as if it were the same entity.

Just because a small group, and yes it is infinitesimally small compared to the number of WDW visitors and fans, of people get together and gripe on the internet reinforcing their own misconceptions does not make it so.