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Game of Thrones season 8 announced

Willmark

Well-Known Member
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It’s telling that Jon’s execution of a young boy has never been held against him.
More later, but this one stuck out to me, not even a close comparison. A boy who actually/literally had a hand in murdering Jon as opposed to a noble who told her “no”.

(As an aside and what might help my reasoning: I’m on “Team No One”) and I’m not talking about the Faceless Men!
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
Are the residents of Kings Landing not just as guilty as the Slave owners? That is my question. Why should I feel bad for them? I mean, sure that mother/daughter moment got me in the feels, sure... But overall Kings Landing has always been a nasty place.
No, the majority of the residents are the same as you and I. Aside from voting, I have no control over the actions of politicians. In King's Landing they don't even get to vote, they're ruled by royalty.

It's also been noted they are ruled by fear, not by any sense of loyalty or agreement with those ruler's policies.
 
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flynnibus

Well-Known Member
The writing has been lazy at times in the TV series after they went past the books.. we've seen this for a long time now.

Like when traveling great distances would start to become trivial and people would just appear and location hop at near will in recent seasons.

Battle logic has been tossed out entirely

Blatant obvious foreshadowing

Character 'swings'

This season has epic battles and scenes.. but in a lot of ways it lacks what established the books and early tv versions as so powerful and gripping.

Now we're just seeing how they race to tie things up.
 

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
372640
These are the RT reviews for the season so far. For the first time ever, the show could go out with at least 1/3 of the episodes having a rotten rating
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
A noble who fought against her army in battle, having defected from the house to which he was pledged.
Yes and how do Targaryens react to being told no? There is a reason why their words are “Fire and Blood”.

And when you have a dragon (or at one time three) every obstacle can be solved by “Draycays”.

She’s simply living up to her forebears and the idea of hereditary kingship bring a bad idea. Fate flips a coin with each Targaryen it’s said.
 
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LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Yes and how do Targaryens react to being told no? There is a reason why their words are “Fire and Blood”.

And when you have a dragon (or at one time three) every obstacle can be solved by “Draycays”.

She’s simply moving up to her forebears and the idea of hereditary kingship bring s bad idea. Fate flips a coin with each Targaryen it’s said.
I'm not talking about the Targaryens in general. I'm talking about Dany in particular. She executed a noble who opposed her in battle and who wouldn't submit to her after being defeated. What is so shocking about that? Note that she did no harm to Jon after he refused to bend the knee to her multiple times. On the contrary, she lent him her support when he asked for it, and when he finally did pledge fealty to her, it was after she'd stopped demanding it. When she learnt of Jorah's betrayal, she merely banished him and later accepted him back into her service. When Jaime turned up in Winterfell, she listened to those around her and treated him well, without so much as asking him to bend the knee.

And even if what you say were true—that the Targaryens can't take any opposition—we are still left with the fact that she massacred hundreds of thousands of people who were in no way opposing her.
 

flynnibus

Well-Known Member
I don't fault Dany for attacking the city... or making sure everyone 'fears' her. She feel vulnerable that no one is rallying to her in Westeros... Sansa is a threat... Jon is a threat... everyone they meet follow them, not her, etc.

What I don't buy into tho is... she is so hell bent on Cersai... why does she not seek her out or aim to punish her directly? She burns a city Cersai doesn't really care about? She doesn't move to take anything away that Cersai desires so much?

To me, that is where the writing fails. Yes Dany is moving to instill fear in the population, but I don't buy into 'that above all else'
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about the Targaryens in general. I'm talking about Dany in particular. She executed a noble who opposed her in battle and who wouldn't submit to her after being defeated. What is so shocking about that? Note that she did no harm to Jon after he refused to bend the knee to her multiple times. On the contrary, she lent him her support when he asked for it, and when he finally did pledge fealty to her, it was after she'd stopped demanding it. When she learnt of Jorah's betrayal, she merely banished him and later accepted him back into her service. When Jaime turned up in Winterfell, she listened to those around her and treated him well, without so much as asking him to bend the knee.

And even if what you say were true—that the Targaryens can't take any opposition—we are still left with the fact that she massacred hundreds of thousands of people who were in no way opposing her.
I am focusing on the Targaryens

You can focus on Dany solely if you want, I’m not, that’s flawed IMO. Her being a Targaryen is vitally important to her character and story and everything that comes with it. It’s literally the basis to her claim to the Iron Throne. I don’t t see how that can be dismissed out of hand. After all she herself comments on “she is the blood of Valyaria” how “she is the rightful Queen” (even though she’s not) etc.

She’s in no position to demand anything let alone loyalty from Jon. By the laws of Gods and Men of Westeros she’s opposing her lawful and rightful king. If there is any bending of the knee to be done it’s Dany. She didn’t or wouldn’t because she has/had three dragons. Again, right makes might and the problems of it which Martin is commenting on with her character. Of course it would be great if Martin would finish the books so we can see how he has her end up.

Dany’s flaws become more pronounced as the seasons go on. You and I differ: You see it as shocking I don’t.

As far as the Tarlys. Imagine Samwell is there. Does that change things? After all she had no idea who he was, especially at that point. And if it does, why?

As far as fire bombing Kings Landing? Targaryens have been doing such actions since the Conquest. It’s their nature, breeding brother to sister will tend to do that. Some are actions are big, some are small. In a way Aegon The Conqueror did some very similar things to Dorne.
 
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flynnibus

Well-Known Member
As fire as fire bombing Kings Landing? Targaryens have been doing such actions since the Conquest. It’s their nature, breeding brother to sister will tend to do that.
Yes, but she's also vowed repeatedly not to be the same as before...
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I am focusing on the Targsryens.

You can focus on Dany solely if you want, I’m not, that’s flawed IMO. Her being a Targaryen is vitally important to her character and story and everything that comes with it. It’s literally the basis to her claim to the Iron Throne. I don’t t see how that can be dismissed out of hand. After all she herself comments on “she is the blood of Valyaria” how “she is the rightful Queen” (even though she’s not) etc.

She’s in no position to demand anything let alone loyalty from Jon. By the laws of Gods and Men of Westeros she’s opposing her lawful and rightful king. If there is any bending of the knee to be done it’s Dany. She didn’t or wouldn’t because she has/had three dragons. Again, right makes might and the problems of it which Martin is commenting on with her character. Of course it would be great if Martin would finish the books so we can see how he has her end up.

Dany’s flaws become more pronounced as the seasons go on. You and I differ: You see it as shocking I don’t.

As far as the Tarlys. Imagine Samwell is there. Does that change things? After all she had no idea who he was, especially at that point. And if it does, why?

As far as fire bombing Kings Landing? Targaryens have been doing such actions since the Conquest. It’s their nature, breeding brother to sister will tend to do that. Some are actions are big dome are small. In a way Aegon The Conqueror did dome very similar things to Dorne.
Entitled, hubristic, power-hungry, ruthless—all of these criticisms make sense to me. Had she destroyed the Red Keep and everyone within it, for example, or killed civilians as collateral damage in taking the city, I would have been disappointed in her but not in the storytelling. That’s the kind of Mad Queen we’d been led to believe might emerge. But wholesale post-surrender genocide of innocents wasn’t something the show (and again, I can’t speak to the books) had even hinted her to be capable of.
 

flynnibus

Well-Known Member
But wholesale post-surrender genocide of innocents wasn’t something the show (and again, I can’t speak to the books) had even hinted her to be capable of.
It is eluded to that the old world this type of total war and brutality is more common. Westeros is considered more modern against those things (hence no slavery, etc) but where Dany had been operating.. and the Dothraki.. etc.. cutthroat.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
It is eluded to that the old world this type of total war and brutality is more common. Westeros is considered more modern against those things (hence no slavery, etc) but where Dany had been operating.. and the Dothraki.. etc.. cutthroat.
Again, I’m talking about Dany’s own character arc. Her track record has been one of helping ordinary populations while dealing ruthlessly with her enemies. Genocide wasn’t in the cards, and if it was supposed to be, the showrunners did a spectacularly bad job of setting the whole thing up.
 

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
This season needed at least one more episode, and I nominate episode 4 as the one that really needed to be split into two parts.

Part 1- post victory at Winterfell. More moments between Jaime and Brienne, actually getting to see the Stark sisters react to Jon’s parentage news, a few more bits of Dany’s temper (could be about mourning Jorah), and a reaction from King’s Landing about the dead being defeated. Ends with the ships setting sail on both sides.

Part 2- Jaime leaves (or doesn’t, this is my fantasy episode), we actually get more of the ship battle, we see Missandei be captured and maybe get some dialogue between her and Cersei. Get a scene of what’s going on in the Iron Islands. Some moments of Jon traveling with the troops, Gendry learning how to be a lord from Sansa, Arya & Sandor on the road... you know, the quiet character building scenes that people tend to like. It could still end with Missandei’s death and Rhaegal getting shish kabobbed, but we would also get more lead up to Dany breaking bad.
 

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
Again, I’m talking about Dany’s own character arc. Her track record has been one of helping ordinary populations while dealing ruthlessly with her enemies. Genocide wasn’t in the cards, and if it was supposed to be, the showrunners did a spectacularly bad job of setting the whole thing up.
Foreshadowing was there, but the character development over the last two seasons was not.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Foreshadowing was there, but the character development over the last two seasons was not.
What foreshadowing? Her “I’ll burn cities to the ground” rhetoric? Missandei went out with “Dracarys”, and no-one interpreted that as a literal call for all-out destruction. If actions speak louder than words, Dany’s did not portend what she did last episode.
 
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flynnibus

Well-Known Member
Again, I’m talking about Dany’s own character arc. Her track record has been one of helping ordinary populations while dealing ruthlessly with her enemies. Genocide wasn’t in the cards, and if it was supposed to be, the showrunners did a spectacularly bad job of setting the whole thing up.
Dany's own character is that she's targaryan.. which is a house of the old world. She lives nearly her full life in that world. She's wed and 'hardened' as a wife of a nomadic warrior tribe. Her hatred of tyrants and objective to free people does not make her some softy who is against violence or brutality. She's used it freely since the books began.. and unbridled and fanned in her time with the Dothraki. The key was the brutality was usually against a party the audience feels is in the wrong.. or unjust. The type of slaughters she orders and enables in the old cities are epic. But she does it arguing from the moral high ground.

The change here was not the severity or brutality of her means... it's in the target. The change is she switches from penalizing the oppressors to being the oppressor herself to solidify her hold on the iron throne. This is in extreme contrast to her pattern of behavior in how to win people over up to this point. She had such high moral justifications for her actions before this... to the point of a fatal flaw no less.. and within 1 episode she somehow flips on that entirely.

The switch is almost too forced, and too casual.. compared to the standard she had been operating with prior to that.

If you haven't read the books... there is a heck of a lot more about the time in the old world... for Dany and multiple characters... that are completely just skipped in the show.
 
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