Game of Thrones season 8 announced

[LittleBuford]

Dany's own character is that she's targaryan.. which is a house of the old world. She lives nearly her full life in that world. She's wed and 'hardened' as a wife of a nomadic warrior tribe. Her hatred of tyrants and objective to free people does not make her some softy who is against violence or brutality. She's used it freely since the books began.. and unbridled and fanned in her time with the Dothraki. The key was the brutality was usually against a party the audience feels is in the wrong.. or unjust. The type of slaughters she orders and enables in the old cities are epic. But she does it arguing from the moral high ground.

The change here was not the severity or brutality of her means... it's in the target. The change is she switches from penalizing the oppressors to being the oppressor herself to solidify her hold on the iron throne. This is in extreme contrast to her pattern of behavior in how to win people over up to this point. She had such high moral justifications for her actions before this... to the point of a fatal flaw no less.. and within 1 episode she somehow flips on that entirely.

The switch is almost too forced, and too casual.. compared to the standard she had been operating with prior to that.

If you haven't read the books... there is a heck of a lot more about the time in the old world... for Dany and multiple characters... that are completely just skipped in the show.

The show is a different animal from the books at this point and has to be judged on its own merits. As you yourself point out, the switch in Dany’s character did not grow organically out of what we’ve been shown thus far. That’s my problem with it.

 

[flynnibus]

I think this piece sums up the climax well..

If at any point during her rise to power in Essos someone had opposed her that wasn’t essentially a comic book villain – had she ruthlessly punished justified objection to her rule that wasn’t a slave trader or a terrorist or a murderer - then Dany's choice to burn King’s Landing in “The Bells” might have felt less like it came out of left field. Further, had she directly faced more social opposition to her arrival in Westeros and refused to reconsider her goals in the face of that, it would’ve grounded her evolution into the Mad Queen.

Instead, Game of Thrones' pacing was such that Dany is still presented a rational savior at the end of season 7 (at least compared to Cersei), yet barely six hours later is a woman whose been driven to murder people she’s claimed she wants to protect. Obviously the unprecedented trauma and loneliness she’s experienced in season 8 contributed to her descent, but there’s barely been time to see her process her experiences, much less believably descend into what was shown in "The Bells."

Game Of Thrones: Dany Was Always A Mad Queen (We Just Didn’t Want To Admit It)

"The Bells" is easily the most divisive episode of season 8, but has Game of Thrones character assassinated Dany or shown us a natural progression?

screenrant.com

I still want to know what happened to the rest of the southern house's forces.

The comical portion of the later seasons is once they deal with a bad leader... it's as if that entire land is wiped from the map. Once we deal with the , Littlefinger, Freys, etc... its as if all those lands magically collapse into null space to freely move about. Where as previously... the loyalty and consistency of the regions was always in flux. Even when they were with you... there was risk and danger. The trip north and south... past the riverlands and into the reach were always dicey... but somehow cutting off the head of the snake in the later seasons just makes those areas 'disappear' from the risk sheet.

 

[flynnibus]

The show is a different animal from the books at this point and has to be judged on its own merits. As you yourself point out, the switch in Dany’s character did not grow organically out of what we’ve been shown thus far. That’s my problem with it.

Well I think you have a different problem than most other people do.. even tho its about the same character.

 

[Willmark]

Dany's own character is that she's targaryan.. which is a house of the old world. She lives nearly her full life in that world. She's wed and 'hardened' as a wife of a nomadic warrior tribe. Her hatred of tyrants and objective to free people does not make her some softy who is against violence or brutality. She's used it freely since the books began.. and unbridled and fanned in her time with the Dothraki. The key was the brutality was usually against a party the audience feels is in the wrong.. or unjust. The type of slaughters she orders and enables in the old cities are epic. But she does it arguing from the moral high ground.

The change here was not the severity or brutality of her means... it's in the target. The change is she switches from penalizing the oppressors to being the oppressor herself to solidify her hold on the iron throne. This is in extreme contrast to her pattern of behavior in how to win people over up to this point. She had such high moral justifications for her actions before this... to the point of a fatal flaw no less.. and within 1 episode she somehow flips on that entirely.

The switch is almost too forced, and too casual.. compared to the standard she had been operating with prior to that.

If you haven't read the books... there is a heck of a lot more about the time in the old world... for Dany and multiple characters... that are completely just skipped in the show.

Agree with most of this except the “switch” part.

 

[LittleBuford]

Well I think you have a different problem than most other people do.. even tho its about the same character.

I’m not sure what that means. My problem is one that is being widely talked about, including within this thread. You yourself summed it up as follows:

“The switch is almost too forced, and too casual.. compared to the standard she had been operating with prior to that.”

I’m not saying anything substantially different from this.

 

[flynnibus]

I’m not sure what that means. My problem is one that is being widely talked about, including within this thread. You yourself summed it up as follows:

“The switch is almost too forced, and too casual.. compared to the standard she had been operating with prior to that.”

I’m not saying anything substantially different from this.

You also said

Genocide wasn’t in the cards, and if it was supposed to be, the showrunners did a spectacularly bad job of setting the whole thing up.

and

And even if what you say were true—that the Targaryens can't take any opposition—we are still left with the fact that she massacred hundreds of thousands of people who were in no way opposing her.

As if it were the tools and means she used that were out of place.. verse simply 'who' she is targeting.

 

[Willmark]

I think this piece sums up the climax well..

Game Of Thrones: Dany Was Always A Mad Queen (We Just Didn’t Want To Admit It)

"The Bells" is easily the most divisive episode of season 8, but has Game of Thrones character assassinated Dany or shown us a natural progression?

screenrant.com

Yep. That’s a fairly good summation.

The writer touches on the most significant of the cultural aspects of this which should have nothing to do with a very good series, but unfortunately do.

I suppose that’s too much to ask to just enjoy it. I know I have and I read it as escape from the ever present culture wars, not to be reminded of them. But to each his own.

 

[Willmark]

I also wonder if she thought just was going to happen when she brought the Dothraki to Westeros? Was this murderous, mobile, rapping and pillaging war machine going to rent houses and become bakers and weavers throughout the Seven Kingdoms Or were they going to do what they always do and have for centuries? Rape, pillage and murder.

I’m quite unimpressed when her husband told everyone in the hall exactly what he was going to do (that’s even in the show) and it’s not even acknowledged or at least forgotten on the web? @2:30 is a telling part;


The show tries to have it both ways that suddenly after the fire that kills the Khals they ALL fall into line but still retain their fighting abilities, fighting for just the Khalessi after robs of a certain way of life.

 

[LittleBuford]

As if it were the tools and means she used that were out of place.. verse simply 'who' she is targeting.

Whom she is targeting is the very issue. That’s what makes the difference between targeted ruthlessness and maniacal genocide.

 

[Willmark]

Foreshadowing was there, but the character development over the last two seasons was not.

I’d say Tyrion’s non development is the most disappointing over the last two seasons.

 

[flynnibus]

I also wonder if she thought just was going to happen when she brought the Dothraki to Westeros? Was this murderous, mobile, rapping and pillaging war machine going to rent houses and become bakers and weavers throughout the Seven Kingdoms Or were they going to do what they always do and have for centuries? Rape, pillage and murder.

Well the wedding to the Dothraki was always a means to an end.. a means to obtain an army. Only after does she gain that affection, and of course has it ripped away. The Dothraki were never meant to stay in Westeros IMO.. the remaining caravan sticks with Dany only really after she proves herself. They seem to fit the model well when Dany was taking over all of the old world.

Dany earns them back after her time on the run. I didn't have any problem with it...

 

[Willmark]

Well the wedding to the Dothraki was always a means to an end.. a means to obtain an army. Only after does she gain that affection, and of course has it ripped away. The Dothraki were never meant to stay in Westeros IMO..

So basically you’re saying they are a big mcguffin?

 

[AEfx]

I have a hard time with TV Cersei. As of Book 5 she is nothing like TV Cersei.

She was closest to form in Seasons 1-2; Hell I even liked TV Cersei up until Season 5. After that? Ugh.

It's interesting to hear that perspective. While I agree book and TV Cersei diverge, I couldn't feel more differently - to me, TV Cersei is just so much more a richer, wonderful character with a better story and clearly defined arc. A lot of that is due to Lena, but she had a journey every bit as interesting as any other main in the show for me. I could write a nice essay about how post-Walk of Shame she fulfilled the wish she made early on in the series about being treated and respected like a man. That she kept her hair like that was very symbolic in that respect. She became what she always wanted to be.

In any case, over the week and thinking, I've not only come to peace with Jaime and Cersei's death, but I now chuckle at how clever it all actually is. Jaime and Cersei are the true love story of GoT. The most scandalous, shocking couple in the show from the very first episode turns out to be the Romeo and Juliet of the whole thing. It is wildly funny when you think about it in that way. You can't subvert expectations much more than that.

That said, the main criticism of the show for me at this point remains that this was all too rushed. I have avoided most online discussion of it because frankly, I think so much of it is misplaced. I don't think this is terrible writing. I think it is rushed writing. Nothing that has happened has been bad writing to me, it just should have been fleshed out quite a bit more. I don't think D&D are bad writers, but I think they were rather selfish as producers in how they went about the last two seasons. They clearly wanted to move on, and didn't want anyone else to finish it up. It didn't serve the story for them to do so.

Jaime and Cersei is one of the real improvements over the books that I feel that the show made (and I think it made many, including swapping Sansa for fakeArya, as "controversial" as that was, it was far better storytelling). I'll be honest, reading the books and finding out Jaime refused to go save Cersei because he heard a rumor she was sleeping around was preposterous to me. The most defining characteristics of both the characters is that they loved each other over all else. I just didn't buy it.

One thing I also have seen related to that (not so much here, but elsewhere a lot where I have ventured out) is this huge romanticism of GRRM all of a sudden. Let's be honest...he wrote three terrific books, one okay book, and one which is kind of a mess. I pretty much reject the common notion that "the show went off the rails when it ran out of source material" - which we know is patently not true in any case, as they ran out of PUBLISHED source material, and that the basic outline of what was going to happen in the end is what we are watching right now. I give them kudos for at least finishing it, even if I wish they hadn't finished it so soon.

If GRRM is smart, and if he does ever finish the last two books - hopefully they will play out as a "directors cut" of what we have seen - because overall, it's turned out pretty well - it's just that the rushed execution of the show has made it difficult to appreciate it in a number of ways.

 

[flynnibus]

@AEfx read the writing article posted just a bit back... speaking to a view on that rushed writing..

GM’s writing isn’t great... but he wove Ana amazing alt universe that was very compelling and interesting... even if some adventures just wandered on forever

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Clearly, there will never be agreement on whether or not Daenerys's descent into madness was justified, too abrupt, inconsistent, etc.

I will say, however, I appreciate the insight from people as to why it makes sense. I don't quite buy it, by virtue of the fact that her actions have generally been on the side of good, and she went pure evil. However, if they had developed it a bit better this season, I would be completely on board.

 

[Princess Leia]

I think this piece sums up the climax well..

Game Of Thrones: Dany Was Always A Mad Queen (We Just Didn’t Want To Admit It)

"The Bells" is easily the most divisive episode of season 8, but has Game of Thrones character assassinated Dany or shown us a natural progression?

screenrant.com

I still want to know what happened to the rest of the southern house's forces.

The comical portion of the later seasons is once they deal with a bad leader... it's as if that entire land is wiped from the map. Once we deal with the *******, Littlefinger, Freys, etc... its as if all those lands magically collapse into null space to freely move about. Where as previously... the loyalty and consistency of the regions was always in flux. Even when they were with you... there was risk and danger. The trip north and south... past the riverlands and into the reach were always dicey... but somehow cutting off the head of the snake in the later seasons just makes those areas 'disappear' from the risk sheet.

When was the last time we saw Edmure Tully? I have been wondering what’s happening to that family for awhile now. With the Frey family in chaos, what are the Tullys doing? I have to imagine that if he managed to take back Riverrun, Edmure would have pledged loyalty to Jon, but Riverrun isn’t as far north as the Eyrie or the Twins.

 

[Willmark]

Just when you thought you’ve heard of everything

Over 750,000 disappointed fans sign petition to remake the final season of 'Game of Thrones'

A petition to call on HBO to remake the eighth and the final season of "Game of Thrones" with new writers has surpassed half a million signatures.

www.cnbc.com

 

[mf1972]

 

[Willmark]

When was the last time we saw Edmure Tully? I have been wondering what’s happening to that family for awhile now. With the Frey family in chaos, what are the Tullys doing? I have to imagine that if he managed to take back Riverrun, Edmure would have pledged loyalty to Jon, but Riverrun isn’t as far north as the Eyrie or the Twins.

I hate they had The Blackfish die off screen. The Blackfish is bad .

 

[flynnibus]

and zombie stark? just totally punted on...