cmybliss
Well-Known Member
God, I hope so! Still, not cool to say something like that though. Especially without a smiley attached to convey intent.
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GAC to Become DAS
- Thread starter Animaniac93-98
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flynnibus
Premium Member
Really? Where was Disney the last 5 years on this matter?
Kudos for them to actually face up and face the music.. but 'responsible' and 'quick' do not come into play when it comes to addressing the GAC problem. It took Disney being shamed all across national media and morning TV to finally get someone to give a toot.
Sped2424
Well-Known Member
My main issue again was the constant bashing of those using the GAC with actual disability, The DAS is going to cause some complications for those that needed the GAC the way it was, pure and simple. More extensive background checks and implementing the same photo Id standards and rules that the DAS are going to use would have had the same desired affect, cut the fraud and give those that need it the GAC.
flynnibus
Premium Member
illegal...
Sped2424
Well-Known Member
Yeah its pretty raunchy. I thought he was making a sarcastic remark about somes attitudes on this matter which is why I liked it, if he wasn't then he needs to take a break.
WDWFan_Boston
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% of the worthiness of the discussion. However, rational discussion was over at about the fourth or fifth page. Now, the conversation has degenerated into subjects that are not applicable (what is or is not a disability,etc.)
If you haven't noticed anything out of bounds, maybe I'm just being sensitive. But, I'm not the first one to say that the tone of some posters is disrespectful.
I AM in favor of the changes. That's was not my point. The word is out. The conversation is no longer productive, IMO.
Night all.
Then what is the answer? Is the DAS the best TWDC can do?
Sped2424
Well-Known Member
No, but as long as something is there for those guests that's the bottom line. This isn't even offical yet so lets see how things go. I wish to discuss more but Kingdom hearts 1.5 is calling me.
Belowthesurface
Well-Known Member
I enjoy the people who want GACs or access to the FP line because they are pregnant.
This argument will be repeated in 6-9 months when FP+ is in full swing and people will be complaining that DAS users got 3-4 more fastpasses than they did and their vacation is ruined. Because while the benefit is no longer unlimited, its still better than 3 fastpasses a day that FP+ is going to get you, so I can guarantee you the same people who abused the GAC will be there getting a DAS and getting their extra fastpasses. the only people who lost in this are those who really benefited from the flexibility that the GAC provided, which has been lessened. the abusers will simply switch tactics.
Actually its the reverse, an IEP would give each kid a personalized GAC, this is more akin to Governors Scotts wonderful plan that mainstreams all special needs students starting in middle school because some study said its better on average, and of course cheaper.
JenniferS
When you're the leader, you don't have to follow.
Surely you jest?!
P.S. Probably safe to say "women", rather than "people". At least in this situation.
Belowthesurface
Well-Known Member
Surely you jest?!
P.S. Probably safe to say "women", rather than "people". At least in this situation.
I'm not kidding. However, the classic line is "I can't wait in lines."
AEfx
Well-Known Member
Or, just maybe, the actual "issue" is just something that has little to no affect on actual attractions or wait times (there would have to be thousands of people a day using them to make a real impact, none of this anecdotal "one time I saw..." crap) and it's only a response to the bad press because one company profited, abused mentally disabled people, and so grossly violated it (I still don't see how this isn't a legal matter, exploiting disabled people), and the supposed ongoing "problem" was invented by people on message boards.
Just maybe...but everyone proclaiming some "victory" over this, hey, have at it - but if you think it's going to change wait times when you go to WDW, or have any real effect on anyone who did not have to use them, you are hallucinating. And in for a sore surprise. And yay! You are happy for people who truly need to use accommodations like this now have a much more complex system to navigate for people that already have to navigate so many (literal and figural) obstacles every moment they are out of their homes (and sometimes even there). But those bad guys will get it! Right. So everyone rejoice over something that had no effect on you in the first place.
Not one person here hates the abusers any more than those who have no choice but to take accommodations - but it comes with the turf. There will always be someone who will go to whatever lengths to exploit any system. And most people who post don't even really understand it and think it was some FOTL pass. It wasn't. For truly disabled people, some attractions you waited longer than "regular line" folks - waiting for an accessible vehicle, a CM to be available to escort you to whatever holding area, getting the worst seat at every show (they are always in the far back) when you aren't turned away because too many overweight people took their rented scooter in, etc., when the actual attraction was a walk-on to everyone who was able-bodied. Jokes on them, they can't walk on...
But this will all hit deaf ears, people will pontificate about how it's now "fair", etc. - based on absolutely no actual facts or actual impact on their experience whatsoever. They won't acknowledge that Disney made the only "real" part of the problem by profiting incredibly from having those scooters available in plentiful numbers for any schmuck to get the same treatment as someone in a wheelchair or who is actually disabled (if you are disabled, you have your own wheels, or can arrange for them - many services will bring them to your hotel for less per week than Disney).
So yeah, keep the cheering going guys - this is so wag the dog. People are convinced of a widespread issue that really only exists in very isolated circumstances, with a company operating an illegal business bringing attention to it, and Disney has found a new use for MM+ so they have something to add to the checklist and then check off as they try to make the enormous amount of money spent seem to have had value, on paper.
Everyone will sleep so much better tonight, I'm sure, knowing that things just got more complex and adds further logistics hurdles to people who already have to plan a trip to the bathroom in the same level of detail one might when packing and planning a weekend trip away - dreaming of suddenly Splash Mountain being a walk-on in the middle of a sunny summer day because those darn disabled folks were what was preventing you from enjoying your vacation.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
This is literally exactly the case. Please hold while I pull up one of the articles online that actually gave the numbers. I believe one was on MiceAge.
Or maybe just read the old thread and the numerous testimonials from CMs who are assigned to hand the cards out. It is thousands. daily.
And this is pointless to even argue against, because obviously Disney themselves has finally decided that it has become a big enough problem that they need to tackle it. A big enough problem that they will have to create an untold number of new guest relations cast member positions just to carry it out. Big enough that they will have to spend money and time to train every single CM on the new procedures. Think about it, this is penny-pinching Disney, they wouldn't do any of this if it was just isolated incidents.
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rct247
Well-Known Member
Well, here were the predictions/rumors that I posed back in May: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...istance-cards-gac.850729/page-37#post-5479152
Looks like the changes will be very much inline with what was predicted.
I think this new DAS system will work very well despite some who argue against it and here is why I think it will work.
-The current system uses stamps most of which conflict with each other or are rarely used. I would almost argue that 98% of GAC cards include the alternate entrance stamp. DAS looks like it eliminates the stamps. People got too used to requesting certain stamps. Cast were also guilty of not looking at the stamps, enforcing specific stamps, or giving conflicting stamps. Both sides won't have to worry about that now.
-One common problem with abusers and even legitimate users has been using a GAC card for the family even if the person the card is for is not present or riding. When GAC was developed, the card was only supposed to assist the person designated on the card, not really their entire family to benefit from. The card does allow for members of their group to accompany them, but it never was or even to this day supposed to be used without the person. This means if Sarah has a GAC and chooses not to ride Space Mountain, her group cannot use her GAC at Space Mountain including if she goes through the line with them. Sure, some argue that you can't expect a group to stand in a 2 hour long line with Sarah waiting just because she doesn't want to ride especially if she has a special need that makes waiting difficult. Unfortunately, GAC wasn't meant to address that issue. With this new DAS system, the photo is a much needed addition. It prevents Maggie from claiming she is Sarah just to bypass the line. It also prevents Bob from TicketSales.website from selling the card on the black market. It helps cut down on the abuse for guests who really need it and helps aid the cast members.
-This brings me to my next point with the limited date range. Prior to the Today Show outing, GAC cards were leaving Guest Relations with date ranges days and even months at a time. Guests, often passholders, would present GAC cards laminated for 3 months or in much worse shape rivaling an ancient document. One of the first changes that we've seen this summer, is the enforcement of date ranges to help clean the system of excessive date ranges. This helps with the DAS transition to require day of visits. While inconvenient overall for everyone, it will cut down on abuse and those who really need it will still see the benefit in visiting Guest Relations each visit for this assistance program.
-The number one reason GAC has been abused it because it was easy to use as an instant Fastpass repeatedly. GAC card users given the alternate entrance quickly learned that they could hop from attraction to attraction with little to no wait with hardly any restrictions. In fact, other guests took note, especially when guests waiting in long lines would see the same groups experience the attraction 2, 3, 4+ times all while they waited. GAC was also not designed for this perk, even for those who have a special needs family member who only wants to ride one ride over and over again. (And those that claim that it is a special need that needs to be accommodated need to realize that even with a special need like that doesn't mean that it should be a catered to. Imagine if a special need child loves to eat cookies. You can't let them have unlimited cookies over an over again. Repetition and re-riding should have a limit even if it is hard or results in an unpleasant experience for your group and others in the area.) The return times that the DAS system looks to have is completely fair. The guest with the disability or special need still has to wait but they have the ability to choose options to distract or occupy that wait time that might be more appropriate for them whether it is quiet time, another low wait attraction, a snack, or even games and activities brought from home. This is what makes DAS so inconvenient for abusers because essentially it is a Fastpass, but a Fastpass with all the rules of a Fastpass including restrictions on how many you can get, return times, etc. DAS will still be great though for families that need it though because eventually they will have Fastpass+ at their disposal. They can book 3+ experiences from home before they arrive. They can make changes and get additional Fastpass+ returns times when they are in the park. They can use their DAS to get return times for attractions that may not even offer Fastpass+, and they still have the choice and opportunity to simply wait in line at an attraction that may have a more manageable wait time. The Fastpass promise is to not have guests waiting in a Fastpass line for more than 15 to 20 minutes, but that does mean that the wait may reach those times even with a Fastpass and even with a child with special needs, 15 or 20 minute waits happen all the time in the real world whether it is waiting for food to be cooked or waiting for transportation or waiting on a family member to get out of the bathroom or shower. It requires some planning and work, but not anymore than what a regular guest may have to plan when wanting to avoid all lines.
-Before I wrap things up, I also want to mention the additional information on guests with limited mobility. It looks like DAS won't be used to address these issues as much or at all anymore as most attractions are accessible and/or have specific procedures and accommodations specific to their attraction. There won't be a need for a DAS if you are in a wheelchair or electric scooter no matter what the mobility issue is ranging for having a sprained ankle to being paralyzed. In most cases where these guests were issued a GAC card they would receive a stamp directing the cast member to let them use a wheelchair accessible queue or in some cases an alternative entrance (which is why many times you will also see them get the alternate entrance stamp. That stamp actually conflicts with the wheelchair stamp.)
GAC cards are not available in the real world, not even at every theme park out there. They don't work at resorts, aren't used on resort transportation, do not cover lines at the park entrance, restaurants, merchandise, bathrooms or character meet & greets. All those experiences including the lines are still tackled by families with special needs every day. I say kudos, especially to those who believe GAC in their current form is the only way to experience the parks. DAS still has these limitations, but still offers a similar accommodation that just helps the legit guests get the proper accommodation without abusers further spoiling it. It will make things harder in some aspects and require more planing, but the results will benefit everyone and hopefully make stand-by wait times shorter.
I know that's a lot, but that's my logic and opinion on the matter.
Looks like the changes will be very much inline with what was predicted.
I think this new DAS system will work very well despite some who argue against it and here is why I think it will work.
-The current system uses stamps most of which conflict with each other or are rarely used. I would almost argue that 98% of GAC cards include the alternate entrance stamp. DAS looks like it eliminates the stamps. People got too used to requesting certain stamps. Cast were also guilty of not looking at the stamps, enforcing specific stamps, or giving conflicting stamps. Both sides won't have to worry about that now.
-One common problem with abusers and even legitimate users has been using a GAC card for the family even if the person the card is for is not present or riding. When GAC was developed, the card was only supposed to assist the person designated on the card, not really their entire family to benefit from. The card does allow for members of their group to accompany them, but it never was or even to this day supposed to be used without the person. This means if Sarah has a GAC and chooses not to ride Space Mountain, her group cannot use her GAC at Space Mountain including if she goes through the line with them. Sure, some argue that you can't expect a group to stand in a 2 hour long line with Sarah waiting just because she doesn't want to ride especially if she has a special need that makes waiting difficult. Unfortunately, GAC wasn't meant to address that issue. With this new DAS system, the photo is a much needed addition. It prevents Maggie from claiming she is Sarah just to bypass the line. It also prevents Bob from TicketSales.website from selling the card on the black market. It helps cut down on the abuse for guests who really need it and helps aid the cast members.
-This brings me to my next point with the limited date range. Prior to the Today Show outing, GAC cards were leaving Guest Relations with date ranges days and even months at a time. Guests, often passholders, would present GAC cards laminated for 3 months or in much worse shape rivaling an ancient document. One of the first changes that we've seen this summer, is the enforcement of date ranges to help clean the system of excessive date ranges. This helps with the DAS transition to require day of visits. While inconvenient overall for everyone, it will cut down on abuse and those who really need it will still see the benefit in visiting Guest Relations each visit for this assistance program.
-The number one reason GAC has been abused it because it was easy to use as an instant Fastpass repeatedly. GAC card users given the alternate entrance quickly learned that they could hop from attraction to attraction with little to no wait with hardly any restrictions. In fact, other guests took note, especially when guests waiting in long lines would see the same groups experience the attraction 2, 3, 4+ times all while they waited. GAC was also not designed for this perk, even for those who have a special needs family member who only wants to ride one ride over and over again. (And those that claim that it is a special need that needs to be accommodated need to realize that even with a special need like that doesn't mean that it should be a catered to. Imagine if a special need child loves to eat cookies. You can't let them have unlimited cookies over an over again. Repetition and re-riding should have a limit even if it is hard or results in an unpleasant experience for your group and others in the area.) The return times that the DAS system looks to have is completely fair. The guest with the disability or special need still has to wait but they have the ability to choose options to distract or occupy that wait time that might be more appropriate for them whether it is quiet time, another low wait attraction, a snack, or even games and activities brought from home. This is what makes DAS so inconvenient for abusers because essentially it is a Fastpass, but a Fastpass with all the rules of a Fastpass including restrictions on how many you can get, return times, etc. DAS will still be great though for families that need it though because eventually they will have Fastpass+ at their disposal. They can book 3+ experiences from home before they arrive. They can make changes and get additional Fastpass+ returns times when they are in the park. They can use their DAS to get return times for attractions that may not even offer Fastpass+, and they still have the choice and opportunity to simply wait in line at an attraction that may have a more manageable wait time. The Fastpass promise is to not have guests waiting in a Fastpass line for more than 15 to 20 minutes, but that does mean that the wait may reach those times even with a Fastpass and even with a child with special needs, 15 or 20 minute waits happen all the time in the real world whether it is waiting for food to be cooked or waiting for transportation or waiting on a family member to get out of the bathroom or shower. It requires some planning and work, but not anymore than what a regular guest may have to plan when wanting to avoid all lines.
-Before I wrap things up, I also want to mention the additional information on guests with limited mobility. It looks like DAS won't be used to address these issues as much or at all anymore as most attractions are accessible and/or have specific procedures and accommodations specific to their attraction. There won't be a need for a DAS if you are in a wheelchair or electric scooter no matter what the mobility issue is ranging for having a sprained ankle to being paralyzed. In most cases where these guests were issued a GAC card they would receive a stamp directing the cast member to let them use a wheelchair accessible queue or in some cases an alternative entrance (which is why many times you will also see them get the alternate entrance stamp. That stamp actually conflicts with the wheelchair stamp.)
GAC cards are not available in the real world, not even at every theme park out there. They don't work at resorts, aren't used on resort transportation, do not cover lines at the park entrance, restaurants, merchandise, bathrooms or character meet & greets. All those experiences including the lines are still tackled by families with special needs every day. I say kudos, especially to those who believe GAC in their current form is the only way to experience the parks. DAS still has these limitations, but still offers a similar accommodation that just helps the legit guests get the proper accommodation without abusers further spoiling it. It will make things harder in some aspects and require more planing, but the results will benefit everyone and hopefully make stand-by wait times shorter.
I know that's a lot, but that's my logic and opinion on the matter.
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
I was going to stay out of this topic as I am happy with Disney FINALLY attempting to solve a disaster that was partly their own making and partly that of an entitlement society, but I REALLY loved that post.
People want special treatment and they want others to get trampled over in the process. There is a sad fact as to why disabilities are called that.
There are some folks for whom a theme park vacation just might not be fair to everyone else. Having a violent out of control child or adult would certainly be one case, no matter how well family thinks they have them trained to deal with the stimuli you face in a day. Not being able to control bodily functions might be another (have no idea if this has been brought up here, but on Miceage it seems a hot topic). No, God, Walt Disney and the US government never promised that everyone could go go the MK (and why would you want to anyway?)
Not trying to be cruel and the Pirate did an excellent job of spelling it out. And I have visited WDW with friends and family that range from amputees to heart conditions to PTSD. I never once got or used any 'go thru the exit with six others' pass.
The abuse of this has to to stop and this is the only way to begin to do so.
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Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
Why?
Because adults can't talk like adults? They shouldn't say anything then and let the rest of the community discuss.
The Mice Age articles were detailing numbers at Disneyland where the issue is much worse due to the large number of Annual Passholders who at busy times can exceed 50% of the guest base, in fact MIceAges number for last Friday were the following, 85,000 Total Guests, of whom 55,000 were Annual Passholders. The heavy repeated use of GAC's by a constantly returning 900000 strong annual passholder base would definitely equate to the 30-50% number you like to use.
WDW has a much smaller annual passholder base and a much smaller local population base that descend on the parks on any given weekend. Orlando and its surrounding areas can muster up a population base of maybe 2 million, whereas LA alone is over 17 million.
I doubt WDW is at the 30-50% level that DLR and DCA suffer from. That is not to say the problem does not exist at WDW, it just h as a more transient flavor, with people getting them because they learned about how to get one while researching their Disney vacation online.
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