Frozen

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Ohhh a new podcast for me to binge on. Thanks!
No problem this is honestly my favorite interview with Jennifer lee, this went super into the creative process and really told me about any and all questions I had for the film. I am curious now about the original version of the movie where Elsa was a full on villain and was later redeemed, although I would have hated another story from Disney where female family members are caty and hate each other.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
I was actually thinking of Hamlet.

Aside from the dead-father-ghost thing, I never got the connection. Simba wasn't a scheming sociopath, and Nala was no Ophelia. (Although Simba did nearly drown her that time...)

185px-Someone_Help_Nala.png
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Aside from the dead-father-ghost thing, I never got the connection. Simba wasn't a scheming sociopath, and Nala was no Ophelia. (Although Simba did nearly drown her that time...)

185px-Someone_Help_Nala.png
Both families are royal families.
Simba is the main character in Disney's The Lion King. he is the son of Mufasa, the king of the lions, which makes Simba a prince. Hamlet, from Shakespeare's The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark is the son of the tragically murdered King Hamlet, which makes him a prince too.

The uncle characters are very similar.
Most people know that, in The Lion King, Simba has an evil uncle named Scar. Scar is jealous of his brother, Mufasa, because he wants to be the king instead. Of course, Scar kills his brother to get what he wants. In Hamlet, Hamlet has an uncle named Claudius. When the reader enters the story, Claudius has already become king - by killing his brother, who was the king.

Relationships.
In The Lion King, Simba develops close friendships with the ever-entertaining Timone and Pumbaa. They are there for him during a time in his life where he has no one, and they teach him how to enjoy life. Simba also has a love interest named Nala. They were friends as young cubs, but romance blossomed when they met again as adults. In Hamlet, Hamlet has a friend named Horatio whom he knew from college. Though Horatio does not have as big of an impact on Hamlet as Timone and Pumbaa have on Simba, he does help Hamlet on several occasions and can be considered his one true friend. Hamlet also has a love interest named Ophelia. There is much controversy about whether he truly loved her or was simply using her, but she is the one young woman in his life nonetheless.

Both of their fathers die.
As previously mentioned, both (King) Mufasa and King Hamlet are murdered by their brothers, who then took over as the kings.

Ghosts.
Mufasa appears to Simba in the stars and tells him to take hisproper place in the circle of life (as king). Hamlet’s father appears as a ghost and tells Hamlet to take revenge on his uncle.

Both princes are sent away.
Simba spends a long time with Timone and Pumbaa after Scar convinces him to run away. Hamlet’s uncle convinces him to travel to England, where he is secretly supposed to be killed, though he survives.

Both princes end up fighting their uncles.
Simba fights with Scar, who ends up being killed by the hyenas. Hamlet kills his uncle with a sword and poisoned wine.

Both princes must overcome a moral struggle.
In The Lion King, Simba has to learn to step up and take his place as king instead of running from his past. In Hamlet, Hamlet has to make the decision to kill his uncle, and also not to kill himself ("to be or not to be" speech).

I would also say that the lion king 2 is Romeo and juliet.
 

RandomPrincess

Keep Moving Forward
No problem this is honestly my favorite interview with Jennifer lee, this went super into the creative process and really told me about any and all questions I had for the film. I am curious now about the original version of the movie where Elsa was a full on villain and was later redeemed, although I would have hated another story from Disney where female family members are caty and hate each other.

My son is napping so I just listened to the whole interview. So great loved the way they talked about a lot of the criticisms people have about Frozen - they tried and the movie just didn't work.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
My son is napping so I just listened to the whole interview. So great loved the way they talked about a lot of the criticisms people have about Frozen - they tried and the movie just didn't work.
Are you referring to when they tried the other routes! Yeah it really shows you how much work goes into this, clearly not something that is haphazard or done without care or thought. I love how jennifer first hated olaf.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Both families are royal families.
Simba is the main character in Disney's The Lion King. he is the son of Mufasa, the king of the lions, which makes Simba a prince. Hamlet, from Shakespeare's The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark is the son of the tragically murdered King Hamlet, which makes him a prince too.

The uncle characters are very similar.
Most people know that, in The Lion King, Simba has an evil uncle named Scar. Scar is jealous of his brother, Mufasa, because he wants to be the king instead. Of course, Scar kills his brother to get what he wants. In Hamlet, Hamlet has an uncle named Claudius. When the reader enters the story, Claudius has already become king - by killing his brother, who was the king.

Relationships.
In The Lion King, Simba develops close friendships with the ever-entertaining Timone and Pumbaa. They are there for him during a time in his life where he has no one, and they teach him how to enjoy life. Simba also has a love interest named Nala. They were friends as young cubs, but romance blossomed when they met again as adults. In Hamlet, Hamlet has a friend named Horatio whom he knew from college. Though Horatio does not have as big of an impact on Hamlet as Timone and Pumbaa have on Simba, he does help Hamlet on several occasions and can be considered his one true friend. Hamlet also has a love interest named Ophelia. There is much controversy about whether he truly loved her or was simply using her, but she is the one young woman in his life nonetheless.

Both of their fathers die.
As previously mentioned, both (King) Mufasa and King Hamlet are murdered by their brothers, who then took over as the kings.

Ghosts.
Mufasa appears to Simba in the stars and tells him to take hisproper place in the circle of life (as king). Hamlet’s father appears as a ghost and tells Hamlet to take revenge on his uncle.

Both princes are sent away.
Simba spends a long time with Timone and Pumbaa after Scar convinces him to run away. Hamlet’s uncle convinces him to travel to England, where he is secretly supposed to be killed, though he survives.

Both princes end up fighting their uncles.
Simba fights with Scar, who ends up being killed by the hyenas. Hamlet kills his uncle with a sword and poisoned wine.

Both princes must overcome a moral struggle.
In The Lion King, Simba has to learn to step up and take his place as king instead of running from his past. In Hamlet, Hamlet has to make the decision to kill his uncle, and also not to kill himself ("to be or not to be" speech).

I would also say that the lion king 2 is Romeo and juliet.

But Disney never said The Lion King was "loosely based on Hamlet". And then proceeded to dump all of the characters from Hamlet in order to steal from yet another play.

Funny, when I mentioned that Frozen is really not much more than Wicked with snow, people got mad. But it's somehow okay to call another Disney film Hamlet with lions. Whatever.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
I think bugs life is a sold entry in their canon, but brave really is just brother bear.

I know. What the heck???? I couldn't believe it when I saw "Brave" and that very same plotline turned up. And then the thing wins an Oscar for best animated feature. Booo!!!! "Brave" made me lose a lot of respect for Pixar. Maybe Lasseter needs a long vacation or something.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I know. What the heck???? I couldn't believe it when I saw "Brave" and that very same plotline turned up. And then the thing wins an Oscar for best animated feature. Booo!!!! "Brave" made me lose a lot of respect for Pixar. Maybe Lasseter needs a long vacation or something.
I think lasseter is juggling too much and needs to go back to just focusing on pixar now that Disney animation can hold its own again!
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Read the transcript of that podcast. I saw nothing that convincingly explained why so much of the Snow Queen story was tossed out. Just saying.
Well if you read the beginning it seems the story was very much in line with Elsa being a villainous bette midler type show queen diva and she would freeze anna's heart on purpose! Perhaps that is a version you would have loved better, but I personally am very glad with the direction they instead chose love vs fear. I know for you the decision to stray from the material ruined the experience for you but that doesn't mean its bad tale, just not really the Snow Queen story. At least you shall always have the russian adaption.
 

RandomPrincess

Keep Moving Forward
Read the transcript of that podcast. I saw nothing that convincingly explained why so much of the Snow Queen story was tossed out. Just saying.

She said they changed the name to Frozen because they had moved so far away from the Snow Queen story. This movie is not the Snow queen so on the plus side we may one day see a Snow Queen movie.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
She said they changed the name to Frozen because they had moved so far away from the Snow Queen story. This movie is not the Snow queen so on the plus side we may one day see a Snow Queen movie.
You might, but not from the mouse house. Perhaps live action, but this was/is it for the snow queen as an animated Disney film.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Except they absolutely did in '92-'93 while the movie was still in production.

Well, it didn't start out that way:

The idea for The Lion King was conceived in late 1988 during a conversation between Jeffrey Katzenberg, Roy E. Disney and Peter Schneider on a plane to Europe to promote Oliver & Company. During the conversation, the topic of a story set in Africa came up, and Katzenberg immediately jumped at the idea.[5] The idea was then developed by Walt Disney Feature Animation's vice president for creative affairs Charlie Fink.[6] Katzenberg decided to add elements involving coming of age and death,[7] and ideas from personal life experiences, such as some of his trials in his bumpy road in politics, saying about the film, "It is a little bit about myself."[7] In November of that year Thomas Disch(author of The Brave Little Toaster) wrote a treatment entitled King of the Kalahari,[8] and afterwards Linda Woolverton spent a year writing drafts of the script, which was titled King of the Beasts and then King of the Jungle.[6] The original version of the film was very different from the final film. The plot was centered in a battle being between lions and baboons with Scar being the leader of the baboons, Rafiki being a cheetah,[7] and Timon and Pumbaa being Simba's childhood friends.[9] Simba would also not leave the kingdom, but become a "lazy, slovenly, horrible character" due to manipulations from Scar, so Simba could be overthrown after coming of age.[6] By 1990, producer Thomas Schumacher, who had just completed The Rescuers Down Under, decided to attach himself to the project "because lions are cool".[6] Schumacher likened the script for King of the Jungle to "an animated National Geographicspecial".[10]

I also read that the scene with Mufasa's ghost was the very last scene animated, and came in very late in production. Originally, Mufasa wasn't supposed to come back at all. Now, don't you think, if the film was really based on Hamlet, that scene would have been in the script in the very beginning (even the rewritten version?) since the ghost dad bit is so pivotal a part of Hamlet?

Personally, I wonder if the "inspired-by-Hamlet" story was just meant as a distraction from all the accusations concerning Kimba the White Lion.

Okay, here's what's really ticking me off about the scripting of Frozen. Sure, the movie disappointed me, but I couldn't put my finger on why it angered me so. But now I've figure it out. It's because it's so apologetically pandering. The Disney scripters were scared of doing a princess movie anyway - remember when Lasseter announced, prior to Tangled's release, that there weren't going to be anymore Disney princess movies? (That raised a heck of a ruckus!) That's why they avoided using the word princess in Tangled's title, and did the same with Frozen. Wouldn't want to offend all the feminists out there. THEN they make the prince in Frozen a bad guy, out of the blue, no reason given - except they were terrified of the Disney prince-and-princess formula and turned it on its head to pander to the very same political group. Romantic love is tossed in favor of sisterly love. That to me was the worst. Hans was actually pretty impressive - his song with Elsa was engaging, and he acted like a true hero throughout the entire film. He truly held the kingdom together during all of the chaos. He wasn't just some dashing rescuer. And then that stupid, pandering, unconvincing revelation at the end...it was clumsy and just too obviously a "gotcha" moment. It took me completely out of the movie for a moment because it was so ridiculous.

Really, if Disney is so ashamed of their princess movies of the past, one wonders how they countenance all those princess meet-and-greets. The corruption! The bad role models! Think of the children! :p

Don't worry, this is my last post on the subject. I'm glad you all liked Frozen, but I have a right not to like it, and I think I have good reasons. But I AM glad it's a hit. WDAS needed that. Now it's on the nearly the same footing as Pixar, and I'm delighted. I just can't be glad it happened because of Frozen. I truly hope that the next WDAS production will enthrall me the way Frozen has most of you. Thanks for reading.
 

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