Frozen

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
The Disney animated films of the 2000s were largely lacking. Fans will for decades yet come up with all kinds of justifications on why, or dream up 'what ifs...' that would allow them to dream history was different. But while the films may have independent elements that when viewed in isolation may look great (like the great ship/space views in Treasure Planet)... the reason the films are flat is because they failed as a whole package. Much like many of the recent park additions - they excel in parts or in specific technical nature or details.. but fail to achieve 'soul' or that element that resonates with guests.

You can't formulate a specific opinion or analysis on a movie without having seen it. You talk about the "whole package", but ignore the reason that it was a box office flop was that people simply did not go to see the movie in the first place. How are they going to know about "idependent elements" or a movie's "soul" when at most you've seen 2.5 minutes out of context? Trasure Planet's premise and unusual visuals is what most likely turned people off, not the quality of the movie, which is what you keep implying (and then ignore survey evidence that most who saw it liked it based on over 65,000 reviews from audiences).

Again a movie's percieved "quality" often does not have an impact on its box office.

The 13K number is signficiant, as the only reason it would have been listed that week is if it made the top 30 selling titles (it was in the top 15). The-numbers.com does not track sales figures for all DVD/Blu-ray titles, just the top 30. For that week, it sold enough to be listed, despite it being a back catalogue title that flopped in its intial run. The movie has some legs (and tumblr fangirls), just not that of Disney's biggest home video titles.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
You can't formulate a specific opinion or analysis on a movie without having seen it. You talk about the "whole package", but ignore the reason that it was a box office flop was that people simply did not go to see the movie in the first place. How are they going to know about "idependent elements" or a movie's "soul" when at most you've seen 2.5 minutes out of context?

I'm sorry - but this is just another excuse - an excuse BTW that could be used for EVERY FILM (success or not). Do you think successful films happen by just sheer luck? That just enough random people went 'hrmm.. which film will I pick today...'. No, beyond the trailer you have things like recommendations from your friends, marketing, reviews, etc. You guys are playing the 'john carter' card here with 'the studio ruined it.. ' 'it was the marketing...' etc etc. Excuses that might work for the box office.. but we're well beyond the box office.

Face reality - ALOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE - and they still went 'MEH'. Even now, when the movie was seen freely on TV/Cable.. it never picked up steam. All the theories and what ifs.. about what happened at the box office do not change that after a decade plus of nearly free viewing of the flick.. it still is tossed aside.

Trasure Planet's premise and unusual visuals is what most likely turned people off, not the quality of the movie, which is what you keep implying (and then ignore survey evidence that most who saw it liked it based on over 65,000 reviews from audiences).

You keep hanging on this 'most people liked it' - well obviously they didn't like it enough to do something about it or talk about it much. If it were popular, it would have a draw, and hence be a commercially valuable property for Disney to exploit.

The 13K number is signficiant, as the only reason it would have been listed that week is if it made the top 30 selling titles (it was in the top 15). The-numbers.com does not track sales figures for all DVD/Blu-ray titles, just the top 30. For that week, it sold enough to be listed, despite it being a back catalogue title that flopped in its intial run. The movie has some legs (and tumblr fangirls), just not that of Disney's biggest home video titles.

1) The number is relatively small.
2) It only making the rankings one week screams anomaly
3) You have no idea why it popped up that week out of all weeks and years it should have and then magically disappeared again. Was there a sale that week? A bundle offer? A re-release?

When you have a measurement that is off and inconsistent with every other measurement... you don't base a whole trend on it... which is exactly what you are doing. Using ONE data point to extrapolate an entire attitude and trend... yet ignoring that it didn't make the charts for every other week before and since. You saw a data point and made up your own justification for it's existence vs looking at how it got there.

The real reason it popped up in the charts that week was because Disney released the 10th anniversary and bluray editions of the film that week - July 3, 2012. So you have a spike due to the new release.. not because 'it found some legs a decade later'

The movie fell flat...
The movie continues to be largely panned...
The movie continues to not find a resurgence even after being on free TV for ages and after home video re-releases.

It's time to face the music... the film has had it's opportunities and the general public has turned away.
 
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Kevin_W

Well-Known Member
Would we all agree this one is better than tangled? Cause thats what I felt after leaving the theater. I love tangled, but couldn't feel that it was missing something. I think that something is the music and score this film has.

I can't quite agree with that one... maybe with the test of time. Tangled is possibly my favorite Disney film (Lion King and Beauty and the Beast are up there as well). I'm not sure where Frozen fits in on the list, but it's also near the top.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Face reality - ALOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE - and they still went 'MEH'. Even now, when the movie was seen freely on TV/Cable.. it never picked up steam.

Do a google image search for "Jim Hawkins" (or deviantart, just brace yourself, because DA has some... unique peculiarities); the vast majority of results are going to be for the Treasure Planet version. How is that not picking up steam?
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
Do a google image search for "Jim Hawkins" (or deviantart, just brace yourself, because DA has some... unique peculiarities); the vast majority of results are going to be for the Treasure Planet version. How is that not picking up steam?
tumblr is way worse lol.
the.. ahem.. combination of Silver and Hawkins isn't exactly... hmm.. how to explain D:
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Do a google image search for "Jim Hawkins" (or deviantart, just brace yourself, because DA has some... unique peculiarities); the vast majority of results are going to be for the Treasure Planet version. How is that not picking up steam?

How is it not? Simple... it doesn't hit where it matters.

The idea of using 'how many images you find online' as a measure of popularity and relevance ignores
1) how google works in the first place
2) the difference between works of literature vs modern film.. or even old films
3) ignores that the vast majority of those images are from a concentrated audience.. basically it's just 'if I scream the loudest I'm the most important'??

Put simply.. you're going to find a lot more digital images online of content from the last 20 years than you are of content that predates digital and this generation.. and you should look at reach, not just volume.

But whatever.. believe what you want. Mean while.. TP stays where history has put it.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
tumblr is way worse lol.
the.. ahem.. combination of Silver and Hawkins isn't exactly... hmm.. how to explain D:

Personally, I find the fan art pairing Jim with Ariel a bit disconcerting, considering how many have pointed out that Jim's mom looks a bit like Ariel. Still, that's not nearly as bad as some other DA Disney fan art- as a piece of advice, DO NOT do a search for Kaa if you value your sanity.

Anyway, Treasure Planet's got a spot for itself as a cult classic, which is exactly where Alice in Wonderland was in the 70s. It has many fans creating fan art and fan fiction, and, more importantly, I can buy Treasure Planet sketches from the animation stores at Disney World, which is more than I can say for Gargoyles. Seriously, at least cast members in WDW have heard of TP; I ask about Gargoyles and I get either a "... What's Gargoyles?", "Do you mean from Hunchback?", or "Wait, that was Disney?"
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
tumblr is way worse lol.
the.. ahem.. combination of Silver and Hawkins isn't exactly... hmm.. how to explain D:

Ah, the anonymity of the internet...where creeps can flourish behind a keyboard the way fungus flourishes behind drywall. :p Really, I'd hate to be a parent trying to monitor his/her children's activity on the web. Garbage is everywhere, and worse, sometimes the purveyors of it demand respect for their filth in the name of "tolerance". They're sad specimens, and their "art" is even worse. I despise them.
 

IndianaJones

Well-Known Member
The same happened with RISE OF THE GUARDIANS by dreamworks..
solid work, beautiful movie, good story and awesome characters..
it did "flopped" (there was a lot of competition by good movies at the time If I remember correctly)
Internationally It did a bit better.
Still....made dreamworks do a "writeoff" or whatever that thing is called.. laid off people from the studios...
but then.. they sold really really well in the blu-ray and dvd home sales.

(from the wiki)
Really enjoyed Rise of the Guardians. Was upset more people didn't see that one.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Ah, the anonymity of the internet...where creeps can flourish behind a keyboard the way fungus flourishes behind drywall. :p Really, I'd hate to be a parent trying to monitor his/her children's activity on the web. Garbage is everywhere, and worse, sometimes the purveyors of it demand respect for their filth in the name of "tolerance". They're sad specimens, and their "art" is even worse. I despise them.

Well, you might not like it, but isn't that the same kind of attitude that was projected at people like Ginsberg or Lennon back in the day?
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Deal.
I know you are aware of my disinterest in seeing it..as i am of yours.
We both share many of the same opinions regarding the initial impression of 'Frozen' , and we both have had a lack of a driving interest to make an effort to see it.
The marketing campaign and pre-release trailers just really killed any possible enthusiasm to see it for me, coupled with the CGI and 'cloned' character designs.


BUT.....i may be enticed to give this one a shot.

Still not 100% certain on this...but seeing it in 3D will make it interesting from a technical standpoint even if the film itself ends up not being all that great.
At least Mickey on the big screen will be entertaining...i do have a interest in seeing the short.
I just hope 'Frozen' does not end up being a 'chick flick'....the whole sisters thing.
That was one of the many aspects of 'Brave' i did not get into..the whole 'mom/daughter' personal drama.

If i have some spare time later this week or next, i might just take in a showing.
We shall see.

Dr. Jones told me to go.
He is famous for his quote : "Trust Me"....so.....
so a film that focuses on the relationship between two women is instantly a chick flick? So a film focusing on two brothers is a dude flick and instantly unappealing to the other gender by your logic? Personal rifts between two family members does not equate into a chick flick..I am starting to question your judgement there. Also I don't see why this is such a decision its a film, see it or don't see it, its really not the end all to everything.
 
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Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Just saw these 'complaints' about Elsa vs Rapazunel. They aren't 'clones' and only are alike in the overall style Disney is animating humans in recent films.

The character has different eyes (sharper corners vs rounded), different nose, different eyebrows, different cheeks, chins, lips. The frozen princess characters very much pull on the traits you see in the Fins and other northern scandanvian natives. What they share is the artistic style. Just like humans in pixar films did, and humans in classic WDP animated features did for a long long time.

Sometimes it really feels like people just WANT to find things to harp on.
No people really do look and nitpick for anything to have an issue with this film, I blame the initial marketing and bad hype bandwagon the film had months before it even came out. I thought the film delivered on every beat, definitely is up there with any of the renaissance. It delivered where tangled had shortcomings which was the music, that's the key ingredient that tangled was missing.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Now this is a film where I would like to see more of the characters afterwards, whether its a short, or a sequel. But only if its given time and care.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
No people really do look and nitpick for anything to have an issue with this film, I blame the initial marketing and bad hype bandwagon the film had months before it even came out

But once the film is out and is seen by many... who cares what the early trailers or posters were, etc... none of that matters if you have good word of mouth.. and certainly doesn't matter once you've seen the film yourself.

I blame all the disney fanverse that think they are all insiders or film critics now. This film has been targeted (IMO) because it's been kicking around inside Disney for so long and because of alot of the 'news' surrounding it like the name change, etc. Basically, anytime there is some dissent, the armchair execs decide to latch onto the controversy and want to chime in. Add into that the 'repeat effect' where armchair people don't really understand the core things.. they instead gravitate to repeating/immitating success or an action.. and then people think everything is being torpedeo'd the same way John Carter was, etc. Then it becomes a bandwagon and everyone piles on.. right or wrong. The world doesn't need more film 'critics' - I just wish Disney fans would go out and enjoy the films or not.

With our family life... I rarely get out to the theaters.. but Frozen interested me based on the early feedback (I had only seen the olaf/sven trailer) but my daughter wanted to take her friend to see it, so it was a perfect option to do so. Going to the movies is expensive around here.. so I tend to pass on seeing them in the theater.. but after seeing Frozen I want to go back and take my wife now and more. For Disney films of late.. only wreck it ralph lately made me want to see it again immediately afterwards.
 

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