Frozen complainers are finally making headlines.

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AEfx

Well-Known Member
If the park was so boring to so many people why did it have higher attendance than modern Epcot? This has been stated here before.
.

Because, AK.

AK just stole attendance from other parks. That's why ultimately its failure to bring more customers to WDW are what is responsible for the decade+ long stagnation and the MM+ mess we have now. Disney decided that since building a theme park didn't bring more people, the market was saturated, so they began to concentrate not on growth but on getting more out of the pockets of those who were already coming.

In any case, as I proved several pages back - EPCOT had characters from Day 1. In both FW and WS. At the very beginning, the intention was to have EPCOT have unique characters, but there were plenty of characters nontheless (as the pictures show, some of those characters are downright offensive from a modern view).

The only thing that changed was that they very quickly (within the first year) they realized that yes, guests did want DISNEY characters - so instead of the offensive cultural stereotype characters they started dressing up Mickey/Minnie etc. These facts are totally ignored by the "EPCOT as religion" crowd. I'd have a lot more respect if folks just said "I don't like this" instead of trying to somehow invent an EPCOT that was completely free of characters before Darth Iger showed up and crapped on it all.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Because, AK.

AK just stole attendance from other parks. That's why ultimately its failure to bring more customers to WDW are what is responsible for the decade+ long stagnation and the MM+ mess we have now. Disney decided that since building a theme park didn't bring more people, the market was saturated, so they began to concentrate not on growth but on getting more out of the pockets of those who were already coming.

In any case, as I proved several pages back - EPCOT had characters from Day 1. In both FW and WS. At the very beginning, the intention was to have EPCOT have unique characters, but there were plenty of characters nontheless (as the pictures show, some of those characters are downright offensive from a modern view).

The only thing that changed was that they very quickly (within the first year) they realized that yes, guests did want DISNEY characters - so instead of the offensive cultural stereotype characters they started dressing up Mickey/Minnie etc. These facts are totally ignored by the "EPCOT as religion" crowd. I'd have a lot more respect if folks just said "I don't like this" instead of trying to somehow invent an EPCOT that was completely free of characters before Darth Iger showed up and crapped on it all.
It was free of Disney character based attractions before he arrived unless you want to count the Goofy short film in Wonders of Life as an attraction. Other than that all I can think of is Turtle Talk added to a small corner of the Living Seas, then he blew Nemo all over the pavilion. That's the point. A walk around character is nothing compared to a full on ride.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Because, AK.

AK just stole attendance from other parks. That's why ultimately its failure to bring more customers to WDW are what is responsible for the decade+ long stagnation and the MM+ mess we have now. Disney decided that since building a theme park didn't bring more people, the market was saturated, so they began to concentrate not on growth but on getting more out of the pockets of those who were already coming.

In any case, as I proved several pages back - EPCOT had characters from Day 1. In both FW and WS. At the very beginning, the intention was to have EPCOT have unique characters, but there were plenty of characters nontheless (as the pictures show, some of those characters are downright offensive from a modern view).

The only thing that changed was that they very quickly (within the first year) they realized that yes, guests did want DISNEY characters - so instead of the offensive cultural stereotype characters they started dressing up Mickey/Minnie etc. These facts are totally ignored by the "EPCOT as religion" crowd. I'd have a lot more respect if folks just said "I don't like this" instead of trying to somehow invent an EPCOT that was completely free of characters before Darth Iger showed up and crapped on it all.
You're only proof is repeating the myth of EPCOT Center's failure when the park never struggled.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
It was free of Disney character based attractions before he arrived unless you want to count the Goofy short film in Wonders of Life as an attraction. Other than that all I can think of is Turtle Talk added to a small corner of the Living Seas, then he blew Nemo all over the pavilion. That's the point. A walk around character is nothing compared to a full on ride.

Moving the goal post.

The characters were all DISNEY created characters. They were just newly created ones. From the WS caricatures to Figment/Dreamfinder/etc.

They found out very quickly - the first year - that folks wanted more traditional Disney characters, which is what happened some 33/34 years ago.

As to rides - folks just need to accept this. WS is going to change. It has to change. Cultural sensitivity is a very real thing today - and what seemed respectful in the 1980's in 2010's is starting to look quaint at best. Everything is a generalization and/or stereotype of another culture. When people say "My, the people of Norway must be up in arms about Frozen!" - well, truth is, the majority don't give a fig either way, but of those that do care - I think you'd actually find more would be offended at trolls and vikings representing them than an animated film.

WS is largely based on stereotypes of other cultures, which is not something they are going to further invest in.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
As to rides - folks just need to accept this. WS is going to change. It has to change. Cultural sensitivity is a very real thing today - and what seemed respectful in the 1980's in 2010's is starting to look quaint at best. Everything is a generalization and/or stereotype of another culture. When people say "My, the people of Norway must be up in arms about Frozen!" - well, truth is, the majority don't give a fig either way, but of those that do care - I think you'd actually find more would be offended at trolls and vikings representing them than an animated film.

WS is largely based on stereotypes of other cultures, which is not something they are going to further invest in.
ALL of Frozen's connections that make it "appropriate" are the very stereotypes you claim need to be done away with.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
You're only proof is repeating the myth of EPCOT Center's failure when the park never struggled.

Excuse me? I never once said that about EPCOT.

My post was about AK. I was agreeing that EPCOT used to have higher attendance, and stated why it lost that - it wasn't because of fan annoyance at the direction, it was because of expansion at WDW elsewhere that drew guests away.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
ALL of Frozen's connections that make it "appropriate" are the very stereotypes you claim need to be done away with.

That's not true, whatsoever.

Your point makes no sense, in any case. Presenting a fantasy with elements from history and historical locations is much different than pretending that something is a realistic depiction when in fact it's a stereotype and/or caricature.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Excuse me? I never once said that about EPCOT.

My post was about AK. I was agreeing that EPCOT used to have higher attendance, and stated why it lost that - it wasn't because of fan annoyance at the direction, it was because of expansion at WDW elsewhere that drew guests away.
Your whole story about Disney needing to bring in the [established film] characters is part of the failure myth.

That's not true, whatsoever.

Your point makes no sense, in any case. Presenting a fantasy with elements from history and historical locations is much different than pretending that something is a realistic depiction when in fact it's a stereotype and/or caricature.
They're the same elements (clothing, architecture, design aesthetics, trolls) and they are still being presented as being of the culture.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Moving the goal post.

The characters were all DISNEY created characters. They were just newly created ones. From the WS caricatures to Figment/Dreamfinder/etc.

They found out very quickly - the first year - that folks wanted more traditional Disney characters, which is what happened some 33/34 years ago.

As to rides - folks just need to accept this. WS is going to change. It has to change. Cultural sensitivity is a very real thing today - and what seemed respectful in the 1980's in 2010's is starting to look quaint at best. Everything is a generalization and/or stereotype of another culture. When people say "My, the people of Norway must be up in arms about Frozen!" - well, truth is, the majority don't give a fig either way, but of those that do care - I think you'd actually find more would be offended at trolls and vikings representing them than an animated film.

WS is largely based on stereotypes of other cultures, which is not something they are going to further invest in.
You yourself made the distinction between original characters made for the park and more traditional Disney characters in the post I quoted. My point is that full blown attractions based on the more traditionally "Disney" characters didn't come to Epcot until Iger took over. I don't mind the M&Gs in WS replacing the ones that could be seen as culturally sensitive today. They're mostly out of the way and not a major focal point. I've felt this way for a while actually and am not moving anything. I just thought you would know or at least have a good guess about what we meant about characters in Epcot. My mistake.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Because, AK.

AK just stole attendance from other parks. That's why ultimately its failure to bring more customers to WDW are what is responsible for the decade+ long stagnation and the MM+ mess we have now. Disney decided that since building a theme park didn't bring more people, the market was saturated, so they began to concentrate not on growth but on getting more out of the pockets of those who were already coming.

In any case, as I proved several pages back - EPCOT had characters from Day 1. In both FW and WS. At the very beginning, the intention was to have EPCOT have unique characters, but there were plenty of characters nontheless (as the pictures show, some of those characters are downright offensive from a modern view).

The only thing that changed was that they very quickly (within the first year) they realized that yes, guests did want DISNEY characters - so instead of the offensive cultural stereotype characters they started dressing up Mickey/Minnie etc. These facts are totally ignored by the "EPCOT as religion" crowd. I'd have a lot more respect if folks just said "I don't like this" instead of trying to somehow invent an EPCOT that was completely free of characters before Darth Iger showed up and crapped on it all.
AK cannibalized guests from other parks, but the plan was for each park to have an addition around the same time. If I recall it was supposed to be Test Track for Epcot and David Copperfield's Magical Underground at DHS. Not sure what the plan was for MK. That didn't happen, and then a few years later 9/11 happened. Epcot still hasn't rebounded from the opening of Animal Kingdom. The public numbers I've seen show Epcot's peak attendance in 1997 at 11.8 mil and it was 11.454 last year.

As for characters in Epcot, in the early to mid 80s it had classic characters featured in native garb around World Showcase as well as the silver space suit outfits in Future World. I'm on board with this, and I'm on board with a Princess meet and greet facility in Norway or France as well where face character versions of princesses appear in World Showcase. For whatever reason that doesn't irk me as much as a ride based on an inappropriate intellectual property.

My Epcot redesign would keep the Frozen meet and greet facility and expand Epcot Character Spot. Characters aren't going away from Epcot so there needs to be a way to address them where they don't impede on the theme. Other changes would be updating and adding non-IP based additions to Future World, moving, it's a small world to Showcase Plaza, then ultimately removing Nemo and Frozen rides for non-IP based alternatives.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
As to rides - folks just need to accept this. WS is going to change. It has to change. Cultural sensitivity is a very real thing today - and what seemed respectful in the 1980's in 2010's is starting to look quaint at best. Everything is a generalization and/or stereotype of another culture. When people say "My, the people of Norway must be up in arms about Frozen!" - well, truth is, the majority don't give a fig either way, but of those that do care - I think you'd actually find more would be offended at trolls and vikings representing them than an animated film.

WS is largely based on stereotypes of other cultures, which is not something they are going to further invest in.
We often disagree, but this is an excellent and unfortunate point. Cultural sensitivity would never allow World Showcase to be built today. Even as it is, it's mostly European countries that tolerate America and vice/versa. Having said that, I'd be interested to see a Norwegian perspective about what is more offensive, Maelstrom vs. Frozen Ever After, or a Mexican's perspective about whether they're bothered by El Rio Del Tiempo or Gran Fiesta Tour.

I operate largely under the mindset that people will find a reason to be offended about everything and we shouldn't cater to that crowd, but it doesn't mean the debate itself isn't valid.

With that said though, it seems that every World Showcase pavilion attraction attempts to emphasize that the greatness of that particular country is their people. That may be removed entirely from the Norway Pavilion once Frozen Ever After debuts.
 

Filby61

Well-Known Member
You're only proof is repeating the myth of EPCOT Center's failure when the park never struggled.

As a side note, all of Disney's failure-myths (EPCOT, DL pre-Eisner, Walt sans Roy, creatives running financially amok) are thematically connected. Common to all the myths is the concept of the near-catastrophic failure of Disney's Walt-era forms (parks, films, business models, management hierarchies), which are saved from destruction by the timely intercession of Eisner-era management's business models and cultural values.

The internal corporate rebranding that promoted the development of the myths is for another thread. Suffice to say that today, three decades on from Eisner's arrival in Burbank, Disney's "failure mythology" is generational and inbred in the Company mindset. It is often mirrored by fans on social media sites.


If I were you I'd check what Marty Sklar said about it....

Unfortunately, Marty isn't a good source for that kind of thing. Sorry to slam a well-liked WDI guy, but he sold out to TPTB of the Eisner/Iger regime long before he retired. He flat-out fibbed to the fan community about character branding in DL's IASW, and publicly scorned DL fans who criticized the overuse of branding. "Beloved PR spinmeister" is about the best that can be said (a pattern going all the way back to the whopper he concocted about the colorblind bulldozer operator tearing down the wrong trees during the construction of DL). He wasn't a mean boss or evil man, but he isn't a reliable source for the history of Disney parks.
 
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Soarin' Over Pgh

Well-Known Member
thriller19xo.gif
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Funny seeing almost the same rumors about Frozen as we saw about the Fantasyland mine train just before it opened.

Lucy will never let you kick the football.
 

Siren

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
An interesting article put out just yesterday by The Economist called --->"Parks of recreation"<--- offers an insightful look into why "Media giants on betting big on the future of theme parks."
20160507_WBD001_0.jpg


When Disney opens its newest theme park in Shanghai next month, one of the first sights to greet visitors will be the Enchanted Storybook Castle. Its gold finials and blue spires will tower 60 metres above the centre of the park, making the castle the largest in any of Disney’s six such domains. A translucent canopy will house a twisting rollercoaster based on the “Tron” science-fiction franchise; robotic boats will voyage through the lair of Davy Jones, a buccaneering villain from the “Pirates of the Caribbean” film franchise.

Marvels like these are why Bob Iger, the head of Disney, has promised this will be the company’s “most technologically innovative park”. With a $5.5 billion price tag it will also be the most expensive. But Shanghai Disneyland represents just a fraction of the investments the firm has been making in its theme parks. Over the past five years alone, it has ploughed $14 billion into its parks division. There have been major upgrades to all of its existing parks and many additional wonders are already being built in them.

Disney is not alone. Major media companies are clamouring to open new theme parks or expand their existing offerings. Universal Studios, which is owned by Comcast, has its own Chinese park in the works, a $3.3 billion project slated to open in Beijing in 2019. Viacom-owned Paramount Pictures has plans for a similarly pricey development outside London. And in Dubai, Sony Pictures and Lionsgate are among the studios collaborating with local developers on a huge complex of parks that is set to open later this year.

This global boom in investment might seem tough to reconcile with the challenges of the theme-park business. Delighting both ten-year-olds and their parents is a magical feat in itself. And as anyone who has heard the gruesome tale of Euro Disney knows, parks are costly to build and expensive to maintain.

Newfound enthusiasm for them partly reflects upheaval in the media industry. As it has become harder to reap riches in television and film, companies are eager to spin gold from both their vast content libraries and to attract attention to their new offerings. Disney and Comcast have enjoyed considerable success doing this through their parks businesses, which have chugged along as reliable profit engines. Universal Studios has contributed more to Comcast’s profits over the past five years than either the broadcast network NBC or the Universal Pictures film studio, its corporate siblings. At Disney, the company’s theme-park division has generated a better return on assets than its film studio in four of the past five years.

Media companies also see theme parks as a good way to cash in on demographic and economic shifts. Thanks to rapid growth in emerging markets, nearly three billion people over the next two decades will attain middle-class purchasing power; flush with disposable income, this tide of consumers is expected to generate huge new demand for recreational travel. Already, theme-park attendance numbers in Asia are growing at the fastest clip of any market in the world; if that trend continues, the Themed Entertainment Association, an industry group, predicts the market there could eclipse that of North and South America within four years. The scene outside Shanghai Disneyland suggests why: although the park does not open for more than a month, thousands flock to its tarp-covered gates each day in the hope of peeking in.

It helps that media companies need not assume as much risk as they did in past decades of park investments. Many simply license their characters, stories and other intellectual property to local developers in exchange for a cut of gross revenues or other fees. That ensures a relatively steady stream of income regardless of whether the park is making money, thereby minimising the risks to licensors. Such deals typically give licensors less control over the final product and limit the potential return from a park project. But for firms such as Paramount and Sony which are just beginning to explore such ventures, this model has nevertheless proved popular.

Companies with more theme-park experience prefer to take on more risk for the greater control and returns that a joint venture provides. In these deals, firms supply the intellectual property, design, management expertise and some cash in exchange for equity and fees. But they cede ownership of the park assets to a majority-shareholding local developer who then fronts much of the construction costs. Shanghai Disneyland, for example, depends upon one such arrangement.

Even if theme parks have many media companies spellbound, there are hazards. Measly economic growth can make finance for new construction harder to obtain. And as parks tend to draw the majority of their visitors from close by, attendance figures rise and fall with local incomes. A full-blown recession could do even more damage; profits from parks tumbled at many big firms, including Disney, during the depths of the global recession in 2009. Companies must make certain that their soaring hopes for theme parks, unlike the towers and turrets within them, do not rise too high.

Someone who has something interesting to say? :)
Awww, thank you.

Sorry, but, with the competition so close down the road, you can clearly see Disney resting on their laurels/butts.
Disney is driving a '57 Chevy that isn't being maintained well, but is still considered a "classic". Universal is driving a friggin' hovercar.
I agree with you to an extent. Disney *was* resting on their laurels but there are many projects in the works right now. Disney is trying to make things right -- well, sort of. LOL.
  • New Soarin' over the World
  • New Frozen Ride, Meet & Greet with expanded pavillion
  • Rivers of Light at AK
  • Night Safari
  • Avatar Land
  • ToyStory Land
  • Star Wars Land
Not to mention, the recent Fantasyland expansion that includes 7DMT, Little Mermaid Ride w/meet & greet, Enchanted Tales w/Belle, Story Book Circus, Two Dumbos, Rethemed Goofy Coaster, BOG, Gaston's Tavern, Caseys Splash area, New Restrooms, etc.

And, the new reimagined Test Track and new interactive queue at Peter Pan.

Wow, that was a lot just to write -- just imagine having to plan, execute and build all that. LOL.

What's Boston have to do with it?
LOL. Nothing, of course. With the exception of your baseball team, I totally love Boston. We met a nice group of people from Boston at Epcot, they were so engaging and funny to where time flew by chatting with them.

Did the OP get the boot? Tried to look at her Profile and it comes up as an error.
No. I didn't get *the* boot -- but, I have all kinds of the most gorgeous boots. I have cowboy boots, riding boots, snow boots, hiking boots, ankle boots, rain boots, etc.

My two favorite pairs of boots are my Burberry Prorsum Aviator Shearling boots, but I just call them my furry berries, lol. They look nice with leggings but I prefer to pair these boots with jeans or long dress pants.
2ekrs5l.jpg
206otug.jpg

And, my favorite everyday boots are these Burberry Wallwood Buckle rain boots. They pair great with leggings and basically anything.

And, I have to give a shout out to my curry/turquoise Sorel Joan of Arctic boots, the best for snow. And also, my coloful collection of glossy Hunter boots.

Sorry bro, but I just *love* boots. LOL.

It's purely academic, but I wonder if Maelstrom would have been closed if it been built as the original imagineered version rather than the testament to sponsor compromise that it became.
Yes, I believe Maelstrom would have been closed, regardless of the version.

Disney was completely blindsided by the millions of visitors who flocked to the Norway Pavilion in droves and waited upwards of 7+ hours just to meet Anna and Elsa.

I imagine the profit margins for both Norway and World Showcase as a whole were astronomical because of the Frozen frenzy.

And, once Anna and Elsa were relocated to MK -- I imagine the profit margins for all of World Showcase, especially Norway suffered a substantial loss. I believe this is the sole reason for the Frozen ride replacing Maelstrom.

I feel like its the random poster who was calling out the staff multiple times as the main reason why it got locked, not only that he probably went and reported every single post that had nothing to do with Frozen because "his time on this forum was limited" and he couldn't be asked to scroll through pages of other things.
The Frozen Construction thread was the worst thread I have ever seen on this forum, it certainly didn't start out that way. The anti Frozen side was just out of control, anyone who supported Frozen or anything else was attacked and berated. The thread had gotten so dark and negative to where anti Frozen people started fighting and turned on each other, lol. In all my years here, I have *never* seen anything quite like that.
 
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wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
My two favorite pairs of boots are my Burberry Prorsum Aviator Shearling boots, but I just call them my furry berries, lol. They look nice with leggings but I prefer to pair these boots with jeans or long dress pants.
2ekrs5l.jpg
206otug.jpg

And, my favorite everyday boots are these Burberry Wallwood Buckle rain boots. They pair great with leggings and basically anything.

And, I have to give a shout out to my curry/turquoise Sorel Joan of Arctic boots, the best for snow. And also, my coloful collection of glossy Hunter boots.
Nice downloaded photos of boots. Name drop much?
 
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