Frozen complainers are finally making headlines.

[lazyboy97o]

No, it doesn't even begin to descend from that process. It never was strictly a "land of tomorrow" in fact, it was more a history and a present situation. The only one that came close was Horizons, other then that notta! OK, I will concede that tossing around the word "future" was gleaned from the original concept, but, words and actually being that should not to be confused. Even Innovations highlighted things that were current and known, no real glimpse into the future. Everyone may not have had access to some of it, but, it existed otherwise, we wouldn't be seeing it.

By that nonsense thinking there is no such thing as futuristic. So EPCOT, which also heavily pulled from the past, was also not about the future.

 

[Goofyernmost]

By that nonsense thinking there is no such thing as futuristic. So EPCOT, which also heavily pulled from the past, was also not about the future.

Oh, it was about the possibility of the future and what it might bring, but, it wasn't what Walt was planning at all. He was going to equip the place with the current technology and upgrade whenever things changed. When he was thinking that, it might have been possible. Today, the places would be remodeled on a daily basis. Also, World Showcase had absolutely no connection to futuristic at all. Last I heard WS was part of EPCOT Ctr. as well. People have to drag themselves out of the 1960's and into 2016. Many things have changed and the Experimental Community of Tomorrow would be a ghetto today. Walt was expecting business to continue to upgrade. If I were a betting man I would bet against that continuing to happen. In fact, the best it would be is the final scene in CoP. And that stuff would be getting old by now.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Oh, it was about the possibility of the future and what it might bring, but, it wasn't what Walt was planning at all. He was going to equip the place with the current technology and upgrade whenever things changed. When he was thinking that, it might have been possible. Today, the places would be remodeled on a daily basis. Also, World Showcase had absolutely no connection to futuristic at all. Last I heard WS was part of EPCOT Ctr. as well. People have to drag themselves out of the 1960's and into 2016. Many things have changed and the Experimental Community of Tomorrow would be a ghetto today. Walt was expecting business to continue to upgrade. If I were a betting man I would bet against that continuing to happen. In fact, the best it would be is the final scene in CoP. And that stuff would be getting old by now.

EPCOT was not centered around upgrading consumer goods. Try paying attention the video and you will even see where World Showcase comes from.

 

[Mickey5150]

E.P.C.O.T = Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow

That's why at WDW it is spelled Epcot, which isn't an acronym.

 

[Speedy71]

That's why at WDW it is spelled Epcot, which isn't an acronym.

I know. that is for those who don't know.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That's why at WDW it is spelled Epcot, which isn't an acronym.

That does not negate that concepts from EPCOT were the basis for EPCOT Center.

 

[Cesar R M]

Who in the holy hell replies to their own two year old thread responding to comments made two years ago?

What is this thread?

its pretty simple actually, the older frozen thread was closed and the new one is being constantly wiped from any conversation that doesn't fit frozen construction.

 

[Kate F]

You know, I think if I hadn't brought up the fact that Phil12 supported changing the ToT, none of this would have happened.

Think about it, everyone in that thread was talking about the Frozen ride (although it was about the merits, which to some is considered "off-topic"), then Phil comes in talking about how the IP is "a perfect fit for WS" and a bunch of other nonsense. A few people replied to him, and I told them not to even waste their time arguing with him and that he supports Guardians of the Tower. After that, I remember people replied to Phil about both Frozen and the ToT and he of course replied back to them. Soon after that, about a page or so of comments got deleted, but the conversation of ToT remained. Which led to more useless, non-Frozen-related arguments with Phil, which led to certain people getting angry about the off-topic posts, which led to the thread getting locked, which led to the new, heavily monitored thread getting created, which made Siren very happy and thus led to this two-year-old thread getting bumped.

 

[Mike S]

You know, I think if I hadn't brought up the fact that Phil12 supported changing the ToT, none of this would have happened.

Think about it, everyone in that thread was talking about the Frozen ride (although it was about the merits, which to some is considered "off-topic"), then Phil comes in talking about how the IP is "a perfect fit for WS" and a bunch of other nonsense. A few people replied to him, and I told them not to even waste their time arguing with him and that he supports Guardians of the Tower. After that, I remember people replied to Phil about both Frozen and the ToT and he of course replied back to them. Soon after that, about a page or so of comments got deleted, but the conversation of ToT remained. Which led to more useless, non-Frozen-related arguments with Phil, which led to certain people getting angry about the off-topic posts, which led to the thread getting locked, which led to the new, heavily monitored thread getting created, which made Siren very happy and thus led to this two-year-old thread getting bumped.

Bad girl. Very bad girl. Go sit in the corner missy and think about what you've done

 

[Goofyernmost]

EPCOT was not centered around upgrading consumer goods. Try paying attention the video and you will even see where World Showcase comes from.

I know where it came from. They had this extra worlds fair park idea, they had the room for it in what they were thinking of building and they literally shoved it in that area. Does that about cover it? Try to not create motivation where it doesn't exist. Walt concept was so far away from the concept of EPCOT 'the theme park', that to even attempt to cross reference it is folly. We got a very good and creative park (at the time) but certainly not in keeping with Walt's EPCOT vision and it is an insult to Walt to even suggest it. I understand that everyone wants to make it some magical recreation of Walt's dream, but, it was not even close to being an Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow. What we got instead was a very good, interesting, creative park that implied some connection to Walt's idea that turned out to be boring to a great many people and was not able to continue to stand on it's own without many changes. So now it is the place to go to throw up in the lagoon. Perfect!

 

[wdisney9000]

I know where it came from. They had this extra worlds fair park idea, they had the room for it in what they were thinking of building and they literally shoved it in that area. Does that about cover it? Try to not create motivation where it doesn't exist. Walt concept was so far away from the concept of EPCOT 'the theme park', that to even attempt to cross reference it is folly. We got a very good and creative park (at the time) but certainly not in keeping with Walt's EPCOT vision and it is an insult to Walt to even suggest it. I understand that everyone wants to make it some magical recreation of Walt's dream, but, it was not even close to being an Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow. What we got instead was a very good, interesting, creative park that implied some connection to Walt's idea that turned out to be boring to a great many people and was not able to continue to stand on it's own without many changes. So now it is the place to go to throw up in the lagoon. Perfect!

An individual being against the toonification of Epcot does not mean they are stuck in the past or have any desire for Epcot to return to Walts vision or even the 1980's version of the park. These labels are attributed to anyone who cries out against the fabric of Epcot being torn to shreds. That fabric is not Uncle Walts vision of a future community either. Its not about Epcot being strictly pavilions, food and booze. The fabric is simply the idea of the theme park (Epcot) having an identity that is DIFFERENT than the MK, or DHS, or AK, which each have their own distinct qualities and themes that are not like the other parks. They have two great concepts to work with at Epcot 1. The future, and, 2. Community/Culture. Look at the top two attractions in the park, TT and Soarin'. Neither are IP based and neither have characters, yet people love them. Now look at Seas w/ Nemo.....usually a walk on. But its got Disney characters so why isnt it drawing 2 hour waits? The three Caballeros boat ride in Mexico has Disney characters, and again, its a walk on. SSE and Mission space have longer waits than Nemo and Three Cabelleros but yet SSE and MS are not IP based. Im not saying they are the best attractions in the world, but they get more love than the character based attractions. Its just proof that you dont have to have characters, and that the company is (or at least once was) capable of using their imagination to create something people enjoy without slapping Mulan, Marry Poppins, or Elsa in it.

Certain people believe the only way to increase attendance and/or their childs attention span at Epcot is through more IP based attractions and that just simply is not true. Do you honestly think that if every WS pavilion had a character ride that it would not be exactly like a bunch of mini-Fantasylands? Im not saying that would be horrible or boring, but its too much of the same thing. The people that are craving more character rides in Epcot are thinking like children. A child would eat chocolate cake and candy for all three meals of the day because its fun and its what they want. The imagineers of yesteryear knew how to give kids chocolate cake, but it was really a healthy meal that just looked like a piece of cake, and there were layers to it, different flavors, and it kept them coming back for more to see what else there was. Nowadays they dont even make a quality cake, they just use an easy bake oven and spit out as many as they can and charge the highest possible amount hoping people dont realize that its a smaller piece and with horrible ingredients, but hey, its in the shape of Olaf so that should distract them from realizing anything.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I know where it came from. They had this extra worlds fair park idea, they had the room for it in what they were thinking of building and they literally shoved it in that area. Does that about cover it? Try to not create motivation where it doesn't exist. Walt concept was so far away from the concept of EPCOT 'the theme park', that to even attempt to cross reference it is folly. We got a very good and creative park (at the time) but certainly not in keeping with Walt's EPCOT vision and it is an insult to Walt to even suggest it. I understand that everyone wants to make it some magical recreation of Walt's dream, but, it was not even close to being an Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow. What we got instead was a very good, interesting, creative park that implied some connection to Walt's idea that turned out to be boring to a great many people and was not able to continue to stand on it's own without many changes. So now it is the place to go to throw up in the lagoon. Perfect!

Try again. A version of World Showcase was in EPCOT. Even the World's Fair stuff (which is far broader than just World Showcase) comes from EPCOT. You're clearly only familiar with the basics of each project and ignoring the gaps that show their evolution and connection.

 

[Mike S]

I know where it came from. They had this extra worlds fair park idea, they had the room for it in what they were thinking of building and they literally shoved it in that area. Does that about cover it? Try to not create motivation where it doesn't exist. Walt concept was so far away from the concept of EPCOT 'the theme park', that to even attempt to cross reference it is folly. We got a very good and creative park (at the time) but certainly not in keeping with Walt's EPCOT vision and it is an insult to Walt to even suggest it. I understand that everyone wants to make it some magical recreation of Walt's dream, but, it was not even close to being an Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow. What we got instead was a very good, interesting, creative park that implied some connection to Walt's idea that turned out to be boring to a great many people and was not able to continue to stand on it's own without many changes. So now it is the place to go to throw up in the lagoon. Perfect!

If the park was so boring to so many people why did it have higher attendance than modern Epcot? This has been stated here before.

People really hated the place.

An individual being against the toonification of Epcot does not mean they are stuck in the past or have any desire for Epcot to return to Walts vision or even the 1980's version of the park. These labels are attributed to anyone who cries out against the fabric of Epcot being torn to shreds. That fabric is not Uncle Walts vision of a future community either. Its not about Epcot being strictly pavilions, food and booze. The fabric is simply the idea of the theme park (Epcot) having an identity that is DIFFERENT than the MK, or DHS, or AK, which each have their own distinct qualities and themes that are not like the other parks. They have two great concepts to work with at Epcot 1. The future, and, 2. Community/Culture. Look at the top two attractions in the park, TT and Soarin'. Neither are IP based and neither have characters, yet people love them. Now look at Seas w/ Nemo.....usually a walk on. But its got Disney characters so why isnt it drawing 2 hour waits? The three Caballeros boat ride in Mexico has Disney characters, and again, its a walk on. SSE and Mission space have longer waits than Nemo and Three Cabelleros but yet SSE and MS are not IP based. Im not saying they are the best attractions in the world, but they get more love than the character based attractions. Its just proof that you dont have to have characters, and that the company is (or at least once was) capable of using their imagination to create something people enjoy without slapping Mulan, Marry Poppins, or Elsa in it.

Certain people believe the only way to increase attendance and/or their childs attention span at Epcot is through more IP based attractions and that just simply is not true. Do you honestly think that if every WS pavilion had a character ride that it would not be exactly like a bunch of mini-Fantasylands? Im not saying that would be horrible or boring, but its too much of the same thing. The people that are craving more character rides in Epcot are thinking like children. A child would eat chocolate cake and candy for all three meals of the day because its fun and its what they want. The imagineers of yesteryear knew how to give kids chocolate cake, but it was really a healthy meal that just looked like a piece of cake, and there were layers to it, different flavors, and it kept them coming back for more to see what else there was. Nowadays they dont even make a quality cake, they just use an easy bake oven and spit out as many as they can and charge the highest possible amount hoping people dont realize that its a smaller piece and with horrible ingredients, but hey, its in the shape of Olaf so that should distract them from realizing anything.

One of the best explanations I've read. Bravo.

 

[Goofyernmost]

An individual being against the toonification of Epcot does not mean they are stuck in the past or have any desire for Epcot to return to Walts vision or even the 1980's version of the park. These labels are attributed to anyone who cries out against the fabric of Epcot being torn to shreds. That fabric is not Uncle Walts vision of a future community either. Its not about Epcot being strictly pavilions, food and booze. The fabric is simply the idea of the theme park (Epcot) having an identity that is DIFFERENT than the MK, or DHS, or AK, which each have their own distinct qualities and themes that are not like the other parks. They have two great concepts to work with at Epcot 1. The future, and, 2. Community/Culture. Look at the top two attractions in the park, TT and Soarin'. Neither are IP based and neither have characters, yet people love them. Now look at Seas w/ Nemo.....usually a walk on. But its got Disney characters so why isnt it drawing 2 hour waits? The three Caballeros boat ride in Mexico has Disney characters, and again, its a walk on. SSE and Mission space have longer waits than Nemo and Three Cabelleros but yet SSE and MS are not IP based. Im not saying they are the best attractions in the world, but they get more love than the character based attractions. Its just proof that you dont have to have characters, and that the company is (or at least once was) capable of using their imagination to create something people enjoy without slapping Mulan, Marry Poppins, or Elsa in it.

Certain people believe the only way to increase attendance and/or their childs attention span at Epcot is through more IP based attractions and that just simply is not true. Do you honestly think that if every WS pavilion had a character ride that it would not be exactly like a bunch of mini-Fantasylands? Im not saying that would be horrible or boring, but its too much of the same thing. The people that are craving more character rides in Epcot are thinking like children. A child would eat chocolate cake and candy for all three meals of the day because its fun and its what they want. The imagineers of yesteryear knew how to give kids chocolate cake, but it was really a healthy meal that just looked like a piece of cake, and there were layers to it, different flavors, and it kept them coming back for more to see what else there was. Nowadays they dont even make a quality cake, they just use an easy bake oven and spit out as many as they can and charge the highest possible amount hoping people dont realize that its a smaller piece and with horrible ingredients, but hey, its in the shape of Olaf so that should distract them from realizing anything.

Actually, no I'm not saying that they all should have a cartoonish type of addition, but, I also don't feel that the addition is something that is sacrilege or a disaster. The concept of no Disney characters in Epcot is bogus to begin with and has been proven over and over, but, still persists. I didn't like what they did with the SSE to accommodate the hand and wand. The stars embedded in the structure was something that made me flinch every time I saw it, but, the idea of having the hand and wand (sans stars on SSE) was for more then one purpose. The common misconception of first time visitors or visitors (Guest) that weren't obsessed like us, felt that Epcot was not part of WDW. The hand and wand connected Epcot with WDW as it should have because... well, simply put... it was part of WDW. It put a sense of fun instead of a stuffy old classroom into the park psychologically and automatically made it feel different. Now perhaps they have to rely on Frozen in Norway to get that feel back. I'm just guessing here so lets not have a dagger throw over it.

Epcot is still good, but, not great like it once was. The Flower, Food and Booze took away it's sophistication and down classed it. But, it needed something because it wasn't drawing the crowds like it once did. As far as being too much of the same thing, those of us that were there when it opened or very shortly thereafter remember when Future World was also known as 'the land of the rubber stamped Omnimover'. The only thing different in the place was UoE with it's amazing ride vehicle, but, the show was a 45 minute commercial for Exxon. If you think that Ellen is a sleeper, it didn't hold a candle to the original show. Then there were the omni's SSE, Horizon, WoM, Imagination and a couple of years later the small but still omni Seas. Even the land had a floating omni ride. It would have been alright as far as I am concerned, but, you have seen the uproar that happens if Disney even thinks about using a previously used ride system. Somehow, people think that unless they reinvent the wheel every time, they have failed. In this case it is unrealistic expectations that are the failure.

 

[Goofyernmost]

If the park was so boring to so many people why did it have higher attendance than modern Epcot? This has been stated here before.

People really hated the place.

I never said that people hated the place. To begin with EPCOT was new. Many people had never seen it before and went there. To see everything took, easily, two days. But, the question was did they go back. After a while people had seen it, thought it was alright but not a must do every trip. The crowds started to thin. Believe me, by the mid 90's all those queue's that once were once filled to capacity started to be a walk through. Also lately, now that we have the magnificent ability to go online and find out how awful something is by those that are never satisfied, painted a picture of gloom and made it sound like spending a year on Alcatraz Island.

Yes, we do hold a degree of responsibility in how the place is perceived by those that do research their trip. Every little thing adds or subtracts from it's image. Those that think that because there is a video made in 1989 is indicative of what happened after that are skipping over a very large portion of it's history. Also, after 89 there was another park to go too and a few years later a 4th park. The things you saw about Epcot in 1989 did not hold forever. Also to answer your question... just because they changed it, didn't mean that they changed it for the better. That doesn't mean that what was there before was relevant to modern society, just that what they did do, didn't hit either.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Try again. A version of World Showcase was in EPCOT. Even the World's Fair stuff (which is far broader than just World Showcase) comes from EPCOT. You're clearly only familiar with the basics of each project and ignoring the gaps that show their evolution and connection.

If I were you I'd check what Marty Sklar said about it. If anyone would know, he would don't you think? They might have had the idea for a Worlds Fair as part of Disney World, but, it was never connected to Epcot other then to the degree that EPCOT was Walt's motivation for the place to begin with. The actual inclusion didn't happen until the last minute. And after-thought, so to speak. I think that it is possible that I don't know all the motivation, but, to me it is obvious that you are filling in the blanks with your imagination rather then actualities. I'll take Marty's word for it, I think.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If I were you I'd check what Marty Sklar said about it. If anyone would know, he would don't you think? They might have had the idea for a Worlds Fair as part of Disney World, but, it was never connected to Epcot other then to the degree that EPCOT was Walt's motivation for the place to begin with. The actual inclusion didn't happen until the last minute. And after-thought, so to speak. I think that it is possible that I don't know all the motivation, but, to me it is obvious that you are filling in the blanks with your imagination rather then actualities. I'll take Marty's word for it, I think.

You are completely ignoring the whole history before the "pushing the two models together" story. World Showcase and the EPCOT Theme Center were both EPCOT-inspired projects. EPCOT drew from World's Fairs and both concepts shared that lineage. You're cutting out a century of history to get anywhere close to a cogent point.

 

[Goofyernmost]

You are completely ignoring the whole history before the "pushing the two models together" story. World Showcase and the EPCOT Theme Center were both EPCOT-inspired projects. EPCOT drew from World's Fairs and both concepts shared that lineage. You're cutting out a century of history to get anywhere close to a cogent point.

OK, you win... it was inspired by EPCOT. Of course, since the entire purpose for Disney World was EPCOT (Walt's EPCOT) then I guess it would be hard to not be influenced by it. Let's move on and agree to disagree.

 

[Mike S]

Actually, no I'm not saying that they all should have a cartoonish type of addition, but, I also don't feel that the addition is something that is sacrilege or a disaster. The concept of no Disney characters in Epcot is bogus to begin with and has been proven over and over, but, still persists. I didn't like what they did with the SSE to accommodate the hand and wand. The stars embedded in the structure was something that made me flinch every time I saw it, but, the idea of having the hand and wand (sans stars on SSE) was for more then one purpose. The common misconception of first time visitors or visitors (Guest) that weren't obsessed like us, felt that Epcot was not part of WDW. The hand and wand connected Epcot with WDW as it should have because... well, simply put... it was part of WDW. It put a sense of fun instead of a stuffy old classroom into the park psychologically and automatically made it feel different. Now perhaps they have to rely on Frozen in Norway to get that feel back. I'm just guessing here so lets not have a dagger throw over it.

Epcot is still good, but, not great like it once was. The Flower, Food and Booze took away it's sophistication and down classed it. But, it needed something because it wasn't drawing the crowds like it once did. As far as being too much of the same thing, those of us that were there when it opened or very shortly thereafter remember when Future World was also known as 'the land of the rubber stamped Omnimover'. The only thing different in the place was UoE with it's amazing ride vehicle, but, the show was a 45 minute commercial for Exxon. If you think that Ellen is a sleeper, it didn't hold a candle to the original show. Then there were the omni's SSE, Horizon, WoM, Imagination and a couple of years later the small but still omni Seas. Even the land had a floating omni ride. It would have been alright as far as I am concerned, but, you have seen the uproar that happens if Disney even thinks about using a previously used ride system. Somehow, people think that unless they reinvent the wheel every time, they have failed. In this case it is unrealistic expectations that are the failure.

I just wanted to address what I bolded and say there is no uproar when that happens. An attraction like that can be great but it won't be groundbreaking (see RSR).

 

[lazyboy97o]

OK, you win... it was inspired by EPCOT. Of course, since the entire purpose for Disney World was EPCOT (Walt's EPCOT) then I guess it would be hard to not be influenced by it. Let's move on and agree to disagree.

My disagreement is not with your choice of words and what constitutes inspiration. It is with you lying and deliberately ignoring history to assert your false claims.