From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

[21stamps]

Humans are a lot more dangerous than gators. I'd say the chance of dying from terrorist attack or mass murderer is a much greater danger at Disney than being eaten by an alligator.

I would rather put as many resources as possible into security to prevent such human attacks than diverting those resources to prevent what was a freak accident. Yeah put up signs fine, but some of the ideas like sea wall or boardwalk around the whole lake have little effectiveness and are just diverting funds from keeping disney safe for our kids from the terrorist and crazed gun killers.

Beef up security at Disney springs because the last time I went there there was no metal detectors or walls to prevent someone from just walking in with an Arsenal of weapons.

That's what's so CRAZY to me!!!!! We have legitimate threats in this world, as evidenced AGAIN a week ago. Yet everyone is so concerned with an act of nature...that will probably never happen again. But now people want water drained, beaches closed, activities taken away.
I don't understand this society. I just don't. I'm more afraid of my son growing up in a world with this kind of skewed mentality, in a world where people spend time googling opinions instead of factual information, than I am about an alligator attacking him.

The alligator- a RARE act of nature.
Unreasonable people who only look for blame and live in ignorance- A choice that one makes. This is much more frightening to me.

 

[The Mom]

How far north have the crocodiles migrated in Florida?

They've definitely been in JAX since the early 1980s - there was an attack and lawsuit (the state was sued for having only no swimming signs, not gator warning signs, in Hanna State Park and had to pay damages) . They were also in the St John's River by NAS Jacksonville. They were probably there earlier. They were in swamp areas in Orange Park. They've only been across the street, in a city park less than 2 miles from downtown, in an older (1910) creek, since 2015. At least that's the first time anyone in the neighborhood (me) noticed one. Others may have seen one by didn't mention it to me.

I saw one in the ocean surf in Ponte Vedra Beach about 25 years ago. It had crossed A1A from a swamp on the other side.

They have been in retention ponds since the early 80s - I didn't live here before then.

I am only talking about those I personally know about.

 

[fosse76]

And the guest answers if there was adequate protection his answer was "I SUGGEST not" - because he knows its not a point of fact, but one of debate.

And the other cited lawyers, personal injury lawyers saying disney COULD be liable.. and the only guy making a decisive claim is a personal injury lawyer Gerson who has an entire business founded upon litigating against companies like Disney. Perfectly objective opinion there don't you think ?

I'm not going to argue the credibility of the attorneys in the article, not knowing anything about them. But I wouldn't ask a tax lawyer or a criminal defense attorney for his or her expert legal opinion on animal attack liability, since he or she does not practice in the field. But you questioned my credentials and disputed my opinion, so this serves as additional support by people whose legal credentials cannot be questioned because they don't require anonymity on this message board. But note that they ask many of the questions I asked in my posts. But since that isn't enough, here are some additional articles on the matter:

http://www.thewrap.com/is-disney-legally-liable-for-the-gator-attack/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...iability-prior-knowledge-questioned/86036062/
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-alligator-disney-idUSKCN0Z3039
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/what-they-are-saying-about-disneys-liability-allig/nrhHF/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ests-about-alligators/?utm_term=.06982685db72

 

[The Mom]

It was a water moccosin,

I grew up on a farm, and saw many snakes as a child, most were not poisonous. But some were, I'm familiar with water moccasins, this was a water moccasin. It had all the "markings". Enough said.

I agree. Most water snakes will run from humans - but not a water moccasin. Which is one of the main identifiers - if I see a snake and it doesn't slither away, I run in the other direction!

 

[flynnibus]

By the logic here regarding Duty of Care and warnings... Is Disney responsible for warning its guests that Disney that it is a target by armed individuals? The threat is real... the risk posed can be fatal.. Disney has had prior knowledge.. So, if Disney is negligent for failing to put up signs about gators... isn't Disney negligent for failing to let people from Nebraska know they are at risk of being victims of an attack while at WDW?

After all... the logic presented here is not that a imminent new threat was known.. but simply that the threat existed and had been previously proven as real.

 

[donsullivan]

They've definitely been in JAX since the early 1980s - there was an attack and lawsuit (the state was sued for having only no swimming signs, not gator warning signs, in Hanna State Park and had to pay damages) . They were also in the St John's River by NAS Jacksonville. They were probably there earlier. They were in swamp areas in Orange Park. They've only been across the street, in a city park less than 2 miles from downtown, in an older (1910) creek, since 2015. At least that's the first time anyone in the neighborhood (me) noticed one. Others may have seen one by didn't mention it to me.

I saw one in the ocean surf in Ponte Vedra Beach about 25 years ago. It had crossed A1A from a swamp on the other side.

They have been in retention ponds since the early 80s - I didn't live here before then.

I am only talking about those I personally know about.

According to Florida Fish and Wildlife:

"Alligators occur from southeast Oklahoma and east Texas on the western side of their range to North Carolina and Florida in the east. They prefer fresh water lakes and slow-moving rivers and their associated wetlands, but they also can be found in brackish water habitats."

 

[fosse76]

Yet everyone is so concerned with an act of nature...that will probably never happen again.

That's a very naive and dangerous statement. It could absolutely happen again. While I agree that some of the "solutions" do go overboard, not to take precautions would be irresponsible on Disney's part. If you think the issue of Disney's liability for this incident is questionable like a few others in this thread, I assure you if they moved forward and did nothing, they would absolutely be liable in a future incident.

 

[21stamps]

According to Florida Fish and Wildlife:

"Alligators occur from southeast Oklahoma and east Texas on the western side of their range to North Carolina and Florida in the east. They prefer fresh water lakes and slow-moving rivers and their associated wetlands, but they also can be found in brackish water habitats."
View attachment 146976

This is the photo I posted (totally understand how you didn't see it several pages back lol), it's alligators though. Not crocodiles. For the most part people anywhere north do not need to be concerned with a crocodile population.

 

[EngineJoe]

By the logic here regarding Duty of Care and warnings... Is Disney responsible for warning its guests that Disney that it is a target by armed individuals? The threat is real... the risk posed can be fatal.. Disney has had prior knowledge.. So, if Disney is negligent for failing to put up signs about gators... isn't Disney negligent for failing to let people from Nebraska know they are at risk of being victims of an attack while at WDW?

After all... the logic presented here is not that a imminent new threat was known.. but simply that the threat existed and had been previously proven as real.

I think Disney springs is a prime example. When i went there last year there was little security. No metal detectors and multiple entry and exit points.

The crazy terrorist gunman who killed 50 people at that Orlando nightclub scouted Disney springs as a potential target.

So now it would seem that Disney knows that the springs is a potential target so would have to do everything possible to secure it. Should that also include a sign warning that it is a potential terrorist or gunman target?

 

[The Mom]

Well maybe I'm different from other people, but before I travel somewhere I'm not familiar with I ALWAYS research what kind of animals are where I'm going, what their habitats are, and how much danger they pose.

I think you may be different. I've traveled to many places in Europe, and didn't do any research on wildlife. I did look up the chances of having my purse stolen, however. My children have traveled (and lived for semesters) in both India and China. They looked into most likely diseases, crime, local customs, etc but never thought to investigate the wildlife.

 

[flynnibus]

so this serves as additional support by people whose legal credentials cannot be questioned because they don't require anonymity on this message board. But note that they ask many of the questions I asked in my posts. But since that isn't enough, here are some additional articles on the matter:

Every one of those articles has been covered here, or are parroting articles already covered. They all say the same thing 'COULD be liable if negligence is determined to be a factor and outline the major pieces.

I mean.. the articles all even support the idea the conclusion are CONTESTED and up for debate and is not simply a matter of legal fact.

"Several legal experts differed in their assessments of Disney's potential legal liability in the attack, but most agreed the company would have a strong impetus to quickly settle any case"
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-alligator-disney-idUSKCN0Z3039

So what exactly are you trying to say again? Because the topic here was 'here are the relevant factors' and discussions on what elements that are open to interpretation. And that's pretty much what every one of these articles says as well.

The issues of what is the standard of warning needed in this exact scenario is not covered in those cited opinions - which is why there is back and forth (and other case cites in the thread)
The issues of if Disney's gator control program is sufficient... is not covered
The issues of the credibility and applicability of previous reports as they related to this incident... are not covered
The issues of what prior knowledge Disney had of a specific dangerous animal... are not covered

 

[EngineJoe]

I think you may be different. I've traveled to many places in Europe, and didn't do any research on wildlife. I did look up the chances of having my purse stolen, however. My children have traveled (and lived for semesters) in both India and China. They looked into most likely diseases, crime, local customs, etc but never thought to investigate the wildlife.

Yup Europe is a lot more dangerous simply because most use public transport, walk a lot, and personal space is very close.

I had a friend who had her purse stolen in Spain by a thief on a motorcycle who just snatched the purse as they drove by. And another one who was surrounded by a bunch of kids at the subway turnstyle and had their wallet stolen in Spain.

 

[21stamps]

That's a very naive and dangerous statement. It could absolutely happen again. While I agree that some of the "solutions" do go overboard, not to take precautions would be irresponsible on Disney's part. If you think the issue of Disney's liability for this incident is questionable like a few others in this thread, I assure you if they moved forward and did nothing, they would absolutely be liable in a future incident.

We go through life naive about many things that can hurt us. Because if we really looked up all of them we would never leave our house. I'm not advocating acting in a reckless manner, just that odds are on our side that something bad will most likely not happen.

I am glad that the signs are going up. I don't feel like beach activities need to be cancelled.

 

[fosse76]

By the logic here regarding Duty of Care and warnings... Is Disney responsible for warning its guests that Disney that it is a target by armed individuals? The threat is real... the risk posed can be fatal.. Disney has had prior knowledge.. So, if Disney is negligent for failing to put up signs about gators... isn't Disney negligent for failing to let people from Nebraska know they are at risk of being victims of an attack while at WDW?

After all... the logic presented here is not that a imminent new threat was known.. but simply that the threat existed and had been previously proven as real.

The warning against terrorism is not an apt comparison, since the average person in this country is well aware of the potential of a terrorist attack (which is still extremely low). Even if you can argue that terrorist threats aren't widely known by the populace, it wouldn't change Disney's liability. They absolutely have a duty of care to keep guests safe. The degree of their liability during a terrorist attack will be determined based on what they knew and what procedures they had in place at the time of the attack. Don't be surprised when Pulse starts getting sued by victims' families for security failures. The airlines were sued after 9-11. Here's a pretty good article on the duty of care as it relates to terrorism (including legal citations). It applies to the sports industry (stadiums), but it would absolutely apply to theme parks.
http://www.martindale.com/legal-library/Article_Abstract.aspx?an=entertainment-sports&id=2342

 

[flynnibus]

So now it would seem that Disney knows that the springs is a potential target so would have to do everything possible to secure it. Should that also include a sign warning that it is a potential terrorist or gunman target?

I think its uncontested that they would be responsible for security and providing that safe environment... my question was more to the point of requiring warnings about the specific threat of gun or explosive violence.

 

[EngineJoe]

I think you may be different. I've traveled to many places in Europe, and didn't do any research on wildlife. I did look up the chances of having my purse stolen, however. My children have traveled (and lived for semesters) in both India and China. They looked into most likely diseases, crime, local customs, etc but never thought to investigate the wildlife.

It's mostly the southern countries that wildlife is dangerous. Brazil, South America. Australia has the most deadly animals. I would think India would have alotnof dangerous animals not to mention tigers and Indian lions.

There's the old saying when in Rome. So one should do all the research they can before going to a different region or country.

 

[ParentsOf4]

This is where you are wrong. It's what I wish most on this thread would realize.
Alligators are NOT "in general known to harm and kill people". Not at all. "In General" they are known to stay away from people.

This is a fact. Please, feel free to do your own research on the subject.

We are discussing alligators whose natural behavior has been modified by humans.

According to experts, alligators who are fed by humans pose a greater threat to humans.

It appears that, at WDW, humans and alligators are increasingly coming into contact with each other due to increased aligator population and human attendance.

Uneducated guests are increasing the threat posed by alligators by feeding these alligators.

 

[EngineJoe]

The warning against terrorism is not an apt comparison, since the average person in this country is well aware of the potential of a terrorist attack (which is still extremely low). Even if you can argue that terrorist threats aren't widely known by the populace, it wouldn't change Disney's liability. They absolutely have a duty of care to keep guests safe. The degree of their liability during a terrorist attack will be determined based on what they knew and what procedures they had in place at the time of the attack. Don't be surprised when Pulse starts getting sued by victims' families for security failures. The airlines were sued after 9-11. Here's a pretty good article on the duty of care as it relates to terrorism (including legal citations). It applies to the sports industry (stadiums), but it would absolutely apply to theme parks.
http://www.martindale.com/legal-library/Article_Abstract.aspx?an=entertainment-sports&id=2342

I doubt pulse has deep pockets though.

 

[fosse76]

To everyone that is heaping the blame solely at Disney's feet for what happened, let me ask you this: before you found out about this tragedy, did you ever give a second thought that something like this might happen, or that Disney should do more to prevent a gator attack from happening? No, and if you said yes, you are either a liar or in the extreme minority. Now that it has happened, Disney is the big, evil, negligent corporation who "should have done something"? It doesn't matter what Disney has done or will do for any risk on property, you people will not be satisfied.

I know I have. I remember riding Splash Mountain a few years ago and seeing an alligator on the grass by the turn after the run-out (after you exit the "cave" and make 180 degree turn). It was just lying there, facing the trough, and I remember being concerned that it could attack one of the passing boats. I got off the ride and went over to the bridge to see if was still there, and sure enough it was. I have no idea how long it had been there or long is stayed (or if and when Disney employees removed it).

And yes, Disney should have done something. I think it may have simply been them naively believing that their guests would simply know about the commonality of alligators wandering wherever they want in Florida and the inherent danger. Once of the links I posted even mentioned that Disney's liability might even be mitigated (i.e., minimized) if it had been a family from Florida. I think it's just run-of-the-mill negligence with a little bit of arrogance (that no warning is needed).

 

[willtravel]

Other than warning signs does anyone know if WDW is moving or euthanizing any more alligators? Or is that something the general public will never know?