From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

[21stamps]

We are discussing alligators whose natural behavior has been modified by humans.

According to experts, alligators who are fed by humans pose a greater threat to humans.

It appears that, at WDW, humans and alligators are increasingly coming into contact with each other due to increased aligator population and human attendance.

Uneducated guests are increasing the threat posed by alligators by feeding these alligators.

Right. As you and I have discussed. That is a big assumption that Disney is aware of it being a significant problem. As evidenced in this thread we know that not everyone is reporting it.
I don't think we'll ever know that actual answer if they were aware and viewed it as a problem or not.

 

[thomas998]

How far north have the crocodiles migrated in Florida?

I think you mean alligators... which have always claimed all of Florida as their home. You can even find them as far north as the southeast part of Oklahoma.... Now if you are talking about American Crocodiles they are only found in the south part of the state probably never as far north as Orlando but they also are less likely to ever get a person because they are more reclusive and shy about people.

 

[GoofGoof]

Other than warning signs does anyone know if WDW is moving or euthanizing any more alligators? Or is that something the general public will never know?

This is a good question. We may never know for sure their exact plans. At a minimum there will be a lot more guest complaints as soon as a gator appears due to the high publicity this story got and I would expect Disney will move fast to remove any gators within public view. Everyone with a camera phone will want their 15 minutes of YouTube fame posting videos of the gator they saw at WDW.

Whether they relocate or kill the gators may be a little more sensitive. Animal rights groups helped to nearly force Sea World into bankruptcy so they can't just go around killing off the wildlife without rubbing someone the wrong way. Since gators are not endangered anymore it may be less controversial to euthanize them especially if they have become too comfortable with humans.

 

[flynnibus]

it wouldn't change Disney's liability. They absolutely have a duty of care to keep guests safe.

The question is simply... is warning your customers of the specific threat required to satisfy that duty of care? That is being argued in this thread that because the threat is previously known, regardless of people's education when it comes to the topic of risk of wildlife, Disney is negligent for failing to warn guests of this danger of gators being present in waterways in Florida.

A position that does not depend on the person's prior knowledge, that does not depend on the specific timing or presence of an immediate threat that differs from every other normal day.... but predicated on the idea the threat is known, credible, and can result in actual harm. Relying on the idea that someone was attacked 30 years ago certainly isn't bounding the issue by a specific, localized impending threat.

Just like the threat of someone looking to inflict mass casualties is an ongoing, well known threat, and Disney not only is a theoretical target, but has been confirmed to be a specific target in the past... and such attacks have happened at other public facilities.

Here's a pretty good article on the duty of care as it relates to terrorism (including legal citations). It applies to the sports industry (stadiums), but it would absolutely apply to theme parks.
http://www.martindale.com/legal-library/Article_Abstract.aspx?an=entertainment-sports&id=2342

This speaks mainly to the topic of applicability of the duty of care to the stadium scenario vs terrorists... but barely speaks at all on opinion on what actions would constitute meeting that duty of care. Specifically to this question, when it comes to disclosure or warning... not really addressed.

The general idea of 'acts of terror' being enough for excluding liability has pretty much been long torn up. Cases have long found ways to argue the location/business didn't do enough to prevent it, etc. I intentionally avoided the word 'terrorism' before because of that worry of exclusion... but it has been weakened long ago.

I'm more interested in applying this mantra of duty to warn people of long standing, persistent, risks that would not be unreasonable to known.

 

[21stamps]

Other than warning signs does anyone know if WDW is moving or euthanizing any more alligators? Or is that something the general public will never know?

It's not Disney who euthanized and moved them. But yes, they will continue removing the alligators who are too large or get too close to people, just like they have done for several years. Calling for alligator removal also isn't exclusive to Disney.

 

[21stamps]

This is a good question. We may never know for sure their exact plans. At a minimum there will be a lot more guest complaints as soon as a gator appears due to the high publicity this story got and I would expect Disney will move fast to remove any gators within public view. Everyone with a camera phone will want their 15 minutes of YouTube fame posting videos of the gator they saw at WDW.

Whether they relocate or kill the gators may be a little more sensitive. Animal rights groups helped to nearly force Sea World into bankruptcy so they can't just go around killing off the wildlife without rubbing someone the wrong way. Since gators are not endangered anymore it may be less controversial to euthanize them especially if they have become too comfortable with humans.

See above. It's not Disney. They don't have some place where they kill them. That's illegal. They report them.
It's also important to note again that alligators have not been endangered for around 30 years.

 

[Incomudro]

I think you mean alligators... which have always claimed all of Florida as their home. You can even find them as far north as the southeast part of Oklahoma.... Now if you are talking about American Crocodiles they are only found in the south part of the state probably never as far north as Orlando but they also are less likely to ever get a person because they are more reclusive and shy about people.

There's an American Crocodile in Orlando.
It can be found right outside the Dinosaur ride.

 

[21stamps]

Question-

Do you guys think that this will hurt Florida tourism?

I personally don't. But just curious of others views. There can't be any argument here bc it's strictly our opinion.lol

 

[steviej]

Question-

Do you guys think that this will hurt Florida tourism?

I personally don't. But just curious of others views. There can't be any argument here bc it's strictly our opinion.lol

I was wondering the same thing. Never say never, but I'd be surprised if this tragedy did impact Florida tourism

 

[Horizons1]

That's good that you do that and I wish most people would, but most people don't and a simple sign would inform people. Please tell me you agree with that.

I reluctantly agree. I still haven't given up hope that people will think and be responsible for their own actions, but perhaps it's time to give up on that.

 

[Raineman]

Question-

Do you guys think that this will hurt Florida tourism?

I personally don't. But just curious of others views. There can't be any argument here bc it's strictly our opinion.lol

If people do some research, and not blindly believe the news stories in tabloid papers, then Florida tourism should be fine. Unfortunately, there are alot of "sheep" out there that will wrap themselves in sensationalist journalism and suddenly think that vacations in Florida are dangerous. This will not deter me from coming to WDW at all-I will be back every 2 years with my DW & DD with me.

 

[donsullivan]

Question-

Do you guys think that this will hurt Florida tourism?

I personally don't. But just curious of others views. There can't be any argument here bc it's strictly our opinion.lol

Will some hyper-cautious people cancel their trips?= likely.

Will it have a measurable impact on the tourism industry as a whole?= not likely.

 

[Nemo14]

IF you want to really make a seawall effective, but rip rap in front of it...gators hate the stuff. But..nothing is 100% effective and in FL if a gator really wants to get somewhere they will.

A tech solution...perhaps the known gators should be RFID tagged and tracked and alarms go off if they cross into specified areas.

I see Magic Bands in their future....

I think you mean alligators... which have always claimed all of Florida as their home. You can even find them as far north as the southeast part of Oklahoma.... Now if you are talking about American Crocodiles they are only found in the south part of the state probably never as far north as Orlando but they also are less likely to ever get a person because they are more reclusive and shy about people.

No, he specifically meant crocodiles (whose behavior is more aggressive than alligator's)

 

[PhotoDave219]

I think you mean alligators... which have always claimed all of Florida as their home. You can even find them as far north as the southeast part of Oklahoma.... Now if you are talking about American Crocodiles they are only found in the south part of the state probably never as far north as Orlando but they also are less likely to ever get a person because they are more reclusive and shy about people.

No. No I don't.

I mean crocodiles. Skinnier snout, much more aggressive and a giant problem to humans wherever they live.

They just found a few in the Miami area.

 

[betty rose]

I think Disney springs is a prime example. When i went there last year there was little security. No metal detectors and multiple entry and exit points.

The crazy terrorist gunman who killed 50 people at that Orlando nightclub scouted Disney springs as a potential target.

So now it would seem that Disney knows that the springs is a potential target so would have to do everything possible to secure it. Should that also include a sign warning that it is a potential terrorist or gunman target?

No, but they have the ability to close it off and make it a 5th gate. As far as the bridges, they could put up an entrance gate, and ask for ID or a magic band. Security needs to be posted their also. We have walked to DS unimpeded , from Saratoga Springs, which makes our home resort vulnerable. Today's world, is not yesterday's world. Back to original topic.

 

[Filby61]

Regardless of what exposure Disney may have in a court of law, their business of selling branded theme park resort vacations to families with young children is enormously more vulnerable in the court of public opinion.

The longer this story resurfaces in mainstream media, is chatted about in social media, is discussed among past and potential-future Disney customers, or talked about within Florida's non-Disney visitor industry, the more erosive it will be to WDW's business.

Disney sells branded vacations that carry with them the anticipation of a distinct flavor of experience. As much as the physical aspects of a WDW vacation, Disney sells the anticipation of what it feels like -- an emotional narrative of relaxing in a bubble of Disney-branded fun and fantasy. A narrative that is crucial to generating return visits and positive word-of-mouth.

It's that distinctly "Disney" emotional narrative that is the most vulnerable to the long-term echoes of this tragedy.

 

[21stamps]

No. No I don't.

I mean crocodiles. Skinnier snout, much more aggressive and a giant problem to humans wherever they live.

They just found a few in the Miami area.

Huh? Crocodiles have been in South Florida.. This is not a "just found" situation. Nothing new.

Please, let's not try to alarm people with things that have always been there.

 

[UofMGuy423]

I'm not going to argue the credibility of the attorneys in the article, not knowing anything about them. But I wouldn't ask a tax lawyer or a criminal defense attorney for his or her expert legal opinion on animal attack liability, since he or she does not practice in the field. But you questioned my credentials and disputed my opinion, so this serves as additional support by people whose legal credentials cannot be questioned because they don't require anonymity on this message board. But note that they ask many of the questions I asked in my posts. But since that isn't enough, here are some additional articles on the matter:

http://www.thewrap.com/is-disney-legally-liable-for-the-gator-attack/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...iability-prior-knowledge-questioned/86036062/
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-alligator-disney-idUSKCN0Z3039
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/what-they-are-saying-about-disneys-liability-allig/nrhHF/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ests-about-alligators/?utm_term=.06982685db72

Some of these also mention Florida law on wild life attacks. It's not an open and shut case as this has never happened before and Florida is not California. If the family were to sue, I hope for their benefit that they can work out a reasonable settlement with Disney. If Disney decides to try the case, I couldn't imagine the anguish as the parent to have to relive those horrific moments over and over again during depositions and at a trial. You would then have the flip side of answering questions like "why were you swimming in the dark with a small child with no life jacket" "why did you ignore the no swimming signs" etc. It would be awful and probably not worth the money that could be obtained.

 

[PhotoDave219]

They've definitely been in JAX since the early 1980s - there was an attack and lawsuit (the state was sued for having only no swimming signs, not gator warning signs, in Hanna State Park and had to pay damages) . They were also in the St John's River by NAS Jacksonville. They were probably there earlier. They were in swamp areas in Orange Park. They've only been across the street, in a city park less than 2 miles from downtown, in an older (1910) creek, since 2015. At least that's the first time anyone in the neighborhood (me) noticed one. Others may have seen one by didn't mention it to me.

I saw one in the ocean surf in Ponte Vedra Beach about 25 years ago. It had crossed A1A from a swamp on the other side.

They have been in retention ponds since the early 80s - I didn't live here before then.

I am only talking about those I personally know about.

I mean Crocodiles. Those really nasty ones that live along the Nile River in Egypt, Australia, and now apparently Miami.

 

[ULPO46]

Question-

Do you guys think that this will hurt Florida tourism?

I personally don't. But just curious of others views. There can't be any argument here bc it's strictly our opinion.lol

No. This is Florida. 500+ years of human encroachment have not made a difference in the abundance of wildlife. As Ian Malcom once said, “They will find a way”. I rarely see foreign nationals visit any of Florida’s springs. The majority of people who do so are locals or from only as far out as southern Georgia. You get the occasional adventurer but that’s about it. Funny, this years ocean waters near the gulf and atlantic have had record highs attracting our friendly neighborhood Sharks, pun intended. Your more likely to be bitten by a shark than be attacked by a gator in the state of florida. Unlike Sharks, Gators are more timid and don’t get near humans unless they are protecting offspring/territory, or some dumb moron decided to start feeding the alligator thus creating a Nuisance gator. There are laws against doing this in the state. In no way do I believe this will do a dent to the more than 150 million people who visit my home state every year.