From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
And what, do you suggest they do? They already tell guests not to feed the animals. Disney is NOT a law enforcement agency. The worst that any guest suspected of feeding animals is going to get is an exceedingly polite reminded to not do it again.
As I found out only recently, feeding alligators is against the law in many states. What should Disney do when Guests break the law?

What should Disney do if, for example, a fight breaks out on property?

Everything I have read and heard says that feeding alligators is dangerous. What should Disney do when its Guests behave dangerously?
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Well, not much outside of Orlando. I think that this case is getting more attention than it otherwise would. A LOT of press was already in town to cover the Pulse shooting, and then this happens.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
I'll try one more time. You are saying alligators are common in Brazil. Nobody is disputing that. It's also completely irrelevant. What I'm saying is that if a tourist comes from another country (like Brazil) or another part of the US how do we know they are knowledgeable about the presence of alligators at WDW? The assumption that everyone who visits WDW is intimately familiar with WDW and its wildlife is flawed. For a lot of visitors it may be their first time to WDW or even Florida. They could be very aware of the dangers of alligators from having them back home but that doesn't mean they are aware that they exist at WDW.


When did I ever say it wasn't a rare event? You seem to just be arguing with anyone for the sake of arguing. My opinion on this is pretty simple to follow, but I'll summarize again. The attack was a rare occurrence. It's only the second time in 45 years an alligator has attacked a person on property and the first fatality. But hindsight is 20/20. If Disney had better signs or warnings to guests this may have been avoided (it may not have too, not everyone cares to follow warnings or signs). For the sake of protecting their guests Disney should add signage and warnings at checkin. It's a very easy fix for them and if it can even prevent one tragedy every 20-30 years it's very worth doing. The fence is probably not necessary but once it's up it will be hard to get rid of. They also need to very strictly enforce the rule against feeding alligators and make sure it's publicized.

From a legal liability standpoint I think Disney will settle out of court to avoid bad PR and prolonged media coverage. I do think that Disney has a decent leg to stand on if they wanted to go to court. I don't think they were necessarily negligent in this case due to the no swimming signs and the rarity of this type of attack. The one area that they could be found at fault is their lack of enforcing rules against feeding the gators. If any of these stories is true and there are CMs who would testify that they reported things that were ignored by management that could be bad for them.

Actually you were the one that implies that alligator/crocodiles weren't a danger in Brazil.

You also threw up a stat to try to show that alligator attacks (deaths and attacks) were basically more common than lighting and that backfired on you because lightning deaths happen more frequently than alligator attacks and deaths combined.

Now you are changing your tune and basically agreeing with what I have been saying Since he beginning that it was a freak accident.

Disney has a very strong case if his went to court but pretty much everyone agrees it will be settled before then silly because they want to get this out of the news quickly and they don't want he bad PR that follows a court case even if the parents have little leg to stand on.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
Anyone going to WDW wants to escape into the magic. That's what a vacation is -- to put your real world concerns away just for a short time. I get it. I never turn on the TV or keep up with the news while at WDW. That doesn't mean WDW is responsible for your entire "reality." This isn't The Truman Show.

Yet even knowing about the dangers from alligators doesn't mean the tragedy wouldn't have happened. Admit it. It could have been your family on that beach and you wouldn't have given it a second thought at the time just because your toddler was splashing his feet in the water. You're on vacation on the shore of SSL next to GF on movie night. Not in a remote swamp.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
It looks like they'll need to make some serious changes to the fire pit location at BLT. Not only is it at the water's edge, but, the combination of marshmallows and gators make for a dangerous scenario. I think there's a video posted somewhere of a wrangler luring an alligator from the water near Splash Mountain with a trail of marshmallows!

View attachment 146869
Death trap. I wonder if @21stamps would be in favor of bringing back the Contemporary Olympic sized pool, deep end and diving board and all. Kind of miss that...
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Disney has a very strong case if his went to court but pretty much everyone agrees it will be settled before then silly because they want to get this out of the news quickly and they don't want he bad PR that follows a court case even if the parents have little leg to stand on.
Disney has no case.

As a business inviting customers onto its property to conduct commerce, it’s my understanding that the law states that Disney bears responsibility for providing the "highest level of care". Disney has a "duty of care". Disney cannot prevent all alligator attacks but Disney must take action to minimize them.

In this instance, if Disney had posted alligator warning signs, if Disney had prosecuted those caught feeding alligators, if Disney had stationed a Cast Member at water’s edge to keep Guests away during movie night when it knows alligators are most active, then it’s possible that a court of law would have affirmed that Disney took the appropriate precautions.

If Disney had done these things, then it’s possible that Disney would have been protected by the doctrine of ferae naturae (meaning Disney is not responsible for the behavior of wild animals).

Instead, Disney did none of these things. Instead, Disney took a laissez-faire attitude to the problem.

Disney knew its Guests had been feeding alligators, making these alligators more dangerous to humans. Disney hosted a “movie nights” event that brought Guests and alligators in close proximity when alligators were most active. Disney did nothing to mitigate these heightened risks. This was a foreseeable tragedy.

Disney has teams of attorneys and wildlife experts. They know all of this. They know that if they take this to court, they will lose.

At this point, every legal expert I’ve seen on TV commenting on this tragedy has opinioned that Disney is liable. They have opinioned that Disney behaved irresponsibly.

Like it or not, this is my understanding of the law. Disney should be judged not by how you or I think the law should be, but by how the law is.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
Expanding alligator and human populations has led to increased contact, with some people behaving unwisely due to ignorance during these encounters.

Decades ago, alligators were approaching extinction. Alligators were an endangered species until 1987, when the Fish and Wildlife Service pronounced them as fully recovered.

Yet it wasn't until 2002 that there was a noticeable increase in the number of alligator attacks:

View attachment 146868


It's all well-and-good to mention so-and-so number of deaths in the last so-and-so decades. According to this chart, there were 5 deaths in 2015 alone. The problem is getting worse because:
  • Larger humans and alligator populations have resulted in more encounters.
  • Uninformed people have been feeding alligators during these increased encounters.
Government agencies and outdoor businesses typically warn visitors when dangerous animals are present. Posted warnings about sharks or bears are common practice, even though both are relatively rare compared to the over one million alligators in the state of Florida alone.

Disney euthanized 5 nearby alligators within hours of this tragedy. WDW has a lot of alligators.

Disney also has a lot of visitors from other parts of the World who don't know that on-property alligators are common, and don't know feeding them causes alligators to change their behaviors.

Disney should have done more to warn Guests.

And perhaps more than anything, people who continue to feed alligators should be punished.
According to wiki there were 3 deaths in 2015 in the us.
2 in Florida: Matt rigging and James okkerse
And 1 in Texas: Tommie woodward
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
One phone call. You don't need to go on a hunt for the nearest employee. Your assumption is "They won't do anything so I shouldn't report it."
That's horrible logic. It's passing blame.

Your next post says make people aware- you were aware, yet did nothing. So please stop with the "well would you if you witnessed a jaywalking?". It's deflection. Anyway, I have to go.. Have a wonderful day.

Oops- I quoted the wrong person. Sorry the "goof" names threw me off.

He didn't want to interrupt his vacation by alerting people that the guy was feeding the animals.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
And what, do you suggest they do? They already tell guests not to feed the animals. Disney is NOT a law enforcement agency. The worst that any guest suspected of feeding animals is going to get is an exceedingly polite reminded to not do it again.

They should eject line cutters as well. But it's hard to do that because if you eject what amounts to a whole family who have saved up money for a once in a lifetime trip they will become hostile, emotional and even violent and cause a massive scene which ruins the day for the rest of the Disney guests.

This is why the Brazilian tour groups have been allowed to have free reign in the park when they are running over little kids or takin Tre merchandise from the store or cutting in line with 50 people. They have come all this way from Brazil for a once in a lifetime sweet sixteen type circle of life coming of age type thing. They get a war in but aren't going to get ejected from the park. The tour groups now have educational programs before going to Disney but there are cultural differences as well as the tour groups just being a bunch of unruly teens.

So warnings are about the extent of what you are going to get otherwise it just turns into six flags.
 

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
He didn't want to interrupt his vacation by alerting people that the guy was feeding the animals.
There were no signs to not feed the alligators. Across the street at the Shades of green they have signs posted everywhere that state: DO NOT go near or feed the alligators. Why was it such a hassle to put up a sign that say that and to not go in the water? The shades has an environment of a swamp, so you know not to swim period, and it is not even a swimming area. At the grand Floridian it is a beach where it seems like it would be okay to go into the water, as long as you don't swim. Unless you have preexisting knowledge of gators being in there you would not be considered stupid not to kno that. It is common sense to educate the public if you know there is dangerous wildlife in a guest area whether the risk is high or not.
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
There were no signs to not feed the alligators. Across the street at the Shades of green they have signs posted everywhere that state: DO NOT go near or feed the alligators. Why was it such a hassle to put up a sign that say that and to not go in the water? The shades has an environment of a swamp, so you know not to swim period, and it is not even a swimming area. At the grand Floridian it is a beach where it seems like it would be okay to go into the water, as long as you don't swim. Unless you have preexisting knowledge of gators being in there you would not be considered stupid not to kno that. It is common sense to educate the public if you know there is dangerous wildlife in a guest area whether the risk is high or not.

We have gone through this argument at least a 1/2 dozen times in this thread. Let's not go there again.
 

Filby61

Well-Known Member
They should eject line cutters as well. But it's hard to do that because if you eject what amounts to a whole family who have saved up money for a once in a lifetime trip they will become hostile, emotional and even violent and cause a massive scene which ruins the day for the rest of the Disney guests.

No, it's hard to do because Disney management has a culture of throwing frontline CMs under the bus if a customer complains about them, whether or not the complaint is valid. And because the training that frontline CMs receive in dealing with customer misbehavior is a pathetic joke, sucked dry of meaningful information by Disney Legal. And because any Disney VP who cares about changing it knows they risk their job if they don't STFU and play the game.
 
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