Florida commission: Disney discriminated against autistic visitors

[networkpro]

So I am a troll for pointing out how the traditionally disabled were thrown to the wayside by Disney due to abuse by those with mild sensory disorders?

Only if you were to suggest that Disney install high intensity strobe lights, tilting floors, and loudspeakers blaring its a small world into every queue.

 

[flynnibus]

There are some interesting angles when it comes to ADA though if Disney were to form a larger voice on these topics.

Specifically, the DOJ has acknowledged that deterring fraud IS in the interest of how the law is implemented. Specific examples include both in ticket sales and in how segways were accommodated.

For ticket sellers, the commentary from the DOJ could almost be word for word in how it applies to Disney's situation given a few word swaps

Prevention of fraud in purchase of accessible seating. Assembly area managers and advocacy groups have informed the Department that the fraudulent purchase of accessible seating is a pressing concern. Curbing fraud is a goal that public accommodations and individuals with disabilities share. Steps taken to prevent fraud, however, must be balanced carefully against the privacy rights of individuals with disabilities. Such measures also must not impose burdensome requirements upon, nor restrict the rights of, individuals with disabilities.

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleIII_2010/titleIII_2010_regulations.htm

Also of interest, was in trying to balance those needs, fraud was one of the points the DOJ mentioned in their arguments for why a TWO TIER system was allowable in defining that proof was acceptable for 'other powered mobility devices' (like Segways). The DOJ allowed stricter requirements for users of those systems vs the protections given to normal wheelchair or scooter users.

This paragraph speaks to the DOJ's views on requiring proof in general...

The Department has sought to find common ground by balancing the needs of businesses and individuals with mobility disabilities wishing to use other power-driven mobility devices with the Department's longstanding, well-established policy of not allowing public accommodations or establishments to require proof of a mobility disability. There is no question that public accommodations have a legitimate interest in ferreting out fraudulent representations of mobility disabilities, especially given the recreational use of other power-driven mobility devices and the potential safety concerns created by having too many such devices in a specific facility at one time. However, the privacy of individuals with mobility disabilities and respect for those individuals are also vitally important.

But in classic 'loophole' fashion, the interpretation still allows for their use without a HC placard given statements made by the user.

The interesting points here for Disney are that
1) The DOJ has listened to complaints when it comes to the need to curb fraud in other situations and their interpretations
2) The DOG has presedence for establishing two-tier systems where a subset of users can be handled different than other users given certain criteria

 

[flynnibus]

Random thought on handicapped spaces.....does anyone think it is dumb the government puts handicap parking spaces at tiny parking lots at the entrance of strenuous hiking trails?

Does anyone else think its dumb that some people assume they know what all handicaps are and what they can and can't do?

 

[arko]

I have never stated that those with invisible disabilities are lesser than visible ones. However, I have stated that inviting those with invisible disabilities to partake in the GAC program led to abuse, especially by those who have mild sensory disorders and could benefit from the challenges of managing a queue. It is this particular group who I consider traitors because they took a program that really benefited the traditionally disabled and they ran it into the ground by using it as an unlimited FOTL FP.

Seriously?
What proof do you have that those with invisible disabilities ruined this program , because a lot of the evidence show that it started at DLR by people showing up in wheelchairs who didn't need them, and it was a common site to see teenagers being wheeled around and then getting up and walking onto rides, which then devolved into people realizing they didn't even need to fake the wheelchair. In fact the most widely reported case of abuse was the one about rich families using a guide with a wheelchair as a guide and then using their GAC to use the FP line while the guy did not even ride. That is actual documented abuse by someone in a wheelchair.

Of course its not indicative of the average wheelchair guest who obeys the rules, just lke the average family with an autistic child who used the GAC within its limits. There will always be exceptions to the rule like the wheelchair guide and the family that uses a GAC when they could get by without one, but unlike you I am not going to paint everyone in a wheelchair with the same coat of paint as the guy in a wheelchair getting paid to abuse his or her GAC.
The word traditional is really insulting, like somehow they have some built superiority because their disability is physical and obvious. A disability is a disability and the GAC served all well, if you want to lay blame for its removal look elsewhere.

 

[ParentsOf4]

But having a HC placard does not regulate if you are allowed to drive or not.. I don't think that has much to do with it.

Parking is a funny beast... because for other forms of accessibility, the ADA defines WHO should be encompassed, and what the design standards should be. For parking, the ADA defines the design standards, but allows the states to define the 'WHO' in determining who is eligible. It's also a standout in that state/localities will have civil penalties for those who abuse the 'accommodation' where for other things there is not. (parking in a HC spot, etc).

The ADA calls out that there should be designated spaces made available, and dictates their design... but doesn't directly address that the spaces may be regulated by the state or localities.

The definition of eligibility for HC cards also varies significantly from the ADA definition of a disability. For instance, under ADA, temporary ailments are not considered disabilities... but under state HC placard requirements, you could get a temporary HC tag in many states for temporary issues.

I have not spent the time to understand why someone could not challenge their use of a HC spot under the ADA without a HC placard. In the spirit of the law in general, one would think you could..

I understand what you suggest but please consider that we don't have a 'right' to drive any vehicle on the road. The car must be registered. It must pass safety and emissions inspections. It must have a license plate. The government is granting me a license to operate that vehicle on the road.

The person with the HC placard does not need to have a license, but that placard's use is associated with an activity (transportation via a motor vehicle) that is regulated by the government and is a privilege, not a right.

I have a right to own a car. I do not have a right to operate it past the end of my driveway.

 

[Gomer]

Remember that one time we had the most rational thread going actually debating the law and then it took the usual nasty turn?

Isn't that every time?

But really, the majority of posters here are reasonable and want to have a discussion that allows both sides to be heard and understood. But it only takes one to derail the entire conversation.

 

[ULPO46]

I still have mixed feelings about all of this disability lawsuit crap. In many ways i am strongly with the Americans with Disabilities Act, which has made companies and public facilities across the US spend Billions of dollars for wheelchair bound guest and customers to get places easier. The easiest examples are the lowered water fountain and the lowered sinks. The list goes on and on. But abuse by people who aren't disabled is felt not just at Disney, but at Universal, Seaworld, Six Flags, etc. and of course in the workplaces. These cases are not easy to avoid and often can include Federal Court Cases and or Hearings. The fact of it all is that Sadly, those who want to use a lawsuit are unfamiliar to how the U.S. Legal system works because when and if it comes down it will be handled by both The United States Supreme Court and the U.S. Congress who passed the Americans With Disabilities Act.

To a Greater Extent this act applies to in the Theme parks, national Parks, and other public spaces, to the countless foreign tourist even if they are not American.

 

[Magenta Panther]

If you know anything about people with disabilities is that part of the treatment plan is to expose them to things that doesn't make the totally comfortable. That is why parents bring them to theme parks and other places. This is to expose them to places and crowds so they are used to it. This will allow them to be able to start to function as an adult if they are capable of doing so. You are correct with saying that it isn't the childs fault but it is part of a greater plan that you have no clue exists and it totally necessary.

I see. But - to play devil's advocate here - if the point of taking people with disabilities to theme parks, etc., is to acclimate them to the real world, isn't it a little contradictory and counter-productive to force theme parks to change things in order to accommodate them?

 

[Prince-1]

I see. But - to play devil's advocate here - if the point of taking people with disabilities to theme parks, etc., is to acclimate them to the real world, isn't it a little contradictory and counter-productive to force theme parks to change things in order to accommodate them?

Lol, I know you said you were playing Devils Advocate but people that take others who have disabilities of any kind arent going there to be acclimated to the real world. Really...Really!?!

Like Disney is anything close to the real world.

People that go to Disney are going for the same reason you or I go there and that is to enjoy and have fun. I'm not going to argue about the merits of the lawsuit but if you are going to play the part of the Devil at least play the Devil with a litlle common sense.

Otherwise...good post!!

 

[Rutt]

I understand the AODA and the wonderful good it has done however can't help thinking that much like many other special interests, a line is being crossed with the majority and frustration levels (right or wrong) are going to lead to a very negative changing of philosophies in society. I'm kinda worried about how far the other way people may just go.

 

[rangerbob]

I see. But - to play devil's advocate here - if the point of taking people with disabilities to theme parks, etc., is to acclimate them to the real world, isn't it a little contradictory and counter-productive to force theme parks to change things in order to accommodate them?

It sounds like you don't want to see anybody with a disability at the park. Everybody goes there to have fun, go on the rides, see the fireworks and look at the different things there. You sound like it should be exclusive to those that you see as normal. People with disabilities deserve to have fun just like you do when you go to the park. They all put their pants on the same way as you do in the morning.

To be clear I don't agree with these lawsuits that some has filed since they think it is discrimination that they can't just cut the line all day long because of a disability. There needs to be a give a take with all of it. With the accommodations that WDW has in place between the DAS and FP we enjoy going to the parks. My son complains about going there but when we get there he has a blast with everything around him. I also don't agree with the parents that uses their disability as an excuse. I saw on one of these posts about parents that places a shirt on their child and allows them to run around a restaurant to steal food from others.

My son has Aspergers. I work for the school board and work around kids with disabilities every day. We go down to Give Kids the World at least 2 times a month to volunteer.

 

[Gomer]

Lol, I know you said you were playing Devils Advocate but people that take others who have disabilities of any kind arent going there to be acclimated to the real world. Really...Really!?!

Like Disney is anything close to the real world.

People that go to Disney are going for the same reason you or I go there and that is to enjoy and have fun. I'm not going to argue about the merits of the lawsuit but if you are going to play the part of the Devil at least play the Devil with a litlle common sense.

Otherwise...good post!!

The two are not mutually exclusive. You can do something for more than one reason.

I go to WDW because I enjoy it.
I go to WDW because it offers a unique location that allows my son to expand his abilities and test his behaviors in a place that provides the exact stimulation he craves and seeks amongst that which he despises and avoids.

Both of those are true statements. For someone raising a child with disabilities, fun is a perk where you can find it. But the primary reason behind everything we do is improving the life of our children through our daily lives. If I did not have a son with autism, I'd still go to WDW. But it would be less often, the manner in which I tour the parks would be much different, and I would definitely vacation elsewhere more frequently. But I use my limited budget on WDW and WDW alone, because I know the valuable impacts it has on my sons behaviors and abilities.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Seriously?
What proof do you have that those with invisible disabilities ruined this program,

Easy. Just as those with invisible disabilities (sensory disorders) helped run the GAC into the ground by using it as an unlimited FOTL FP, they were doing the same with DAS to where Disney had to make changes (see story below). There is no way to blame this latest episode of rampant and continued abuse on anyone other that those with sensory disorders because it is only this group who is eligible for DAS.

DAS a New One
As if all that isn’t keeping the parks Cast Members busy enough in what used to be a slow season, another important initiative is being rolled out just before Thanksgiving. The plan to roll out an electronic version of the Disability Access Service (DAS) cards begins later this week, with a go-live date of November 19th. Instead of a paper card filled in by hand at Guest Relations kiosks around the park, the new DAS system will be electronic and linked to your park ticket or Annual Pass.

Guest Relations Cast Members with handheld scanner tablets at the kiosks will assign an entry time to every park ticket linked to the DAS ticket holder, and then Attractions Cast Members at the receiving attraction will scan each park ticket and confirm on their tablet that those guests are allowed to enter at that time. Once the tickets have been scanned at the attraction, the system would then allow the visitors to return to a kiosk for the next DAS attraction time.
The goal here is to eliminate the widespread DAS fraud and abuse that has increased dramatically at the Anaheim parks. The DAS system at WDW is seeing smaller levels of abuse and fraud, but the problems are rampant and at their most blatant in Anaheim. The new electronic version will force all DAS holders to declare in advance the exact people who are in their party, and then all of those people will have their ticket or AP electronically linked by Guest Relations to the person who has the DAS privileges. Each park ticket or AP will only be allowed to be linked to one DAS ticket holder at a time, thus eliminating the growing practice of families or groups of friends collecting multiple DAS cards and then rounding up multiple ride entries at a time for the entire group.​

http://micechat.com/85860-miceage-update-bridge-to-nowhere/

 

[EOD K9]

Please pay attention to my sarcasm font.....With all this talk of the ADA, does the Americans with Disabilities Act cover foreign nationals? If not, do they need to wait in the stand-by lines with everyone else?

 

[BigKahuna]

Wow some hateful responses on this post. Having a daughter on the autism spectrum, even though we never took advantage of the program I've experienced the meltdown on a few occasions but not to a degree that I'm sure others on the autism spectrum experienced. There are different degrees, so it is difficult to have a blanket policy. But let's not vent our anger on people with a disability- the program was changed because of people abusing the system. Those are the ones that should be taken to court, not Disney!

 

[Todd H]

Easy. Just as those with invisible disabilities (sensory disorders) helped run the GAC into the ground by using it as an unlimited FOTL FP, they were doing the same with DAS to where Disney had to make changes (see story below). There is no way to blame this latest episode of rampant and continued abuse on anyone other that those with sensory disorders because it is only this group who is eligible for DAS.

DAS a New One
As if all that isn’t keeping the parks Cast Members busy enough in what used to be a slow season, another important initiative is being rolled out just before Thanksgiving. The plan to roll out an electronic version of the Disability Access Service (DAS) cards begins later this week, with a go-live date of November 19th. Instead of a paper card filled in by hand at Guest Relations kiosks around the park, the new DAS system will be electronic and linked to your park ticket or Annual Pass.

Guest Relations Cast Members with handheld scanner tablets at the kiosks will assign an entry time to every park ticket linked to the DAS ticket holder, and then Attractions Cast Members at the receiving attraction will scan each park ticket and confirm on their tablet that those guests are allowed to enter at that time. Once the tickets have been scanned at the attraction, the system would then allow the visitors to return to a kiosk for the next DAS attraction time.
The goal here is to eliminate the widespread DAS fraud and abuse that has increased dramatically at the Anaheim parks. The DAS system at WDW is seeing smaller levels of abuse and fraud, but the problems are rampant and at their most blatant in Anaheim. The new electronic version will force all DAS holders to declare in advance the exact people who are in their party, and then all of those people will have their ticket or AP electronically linked by Guest Relations to the person who has the DAS privileges. Each park ticket or AP will only be allowed to be linked to one DAS ticket holder at a time, thus eliminating the growing practice of families or groups of friends collecting multiple DAS cards and then rounding up multiple ride entries at a time for the entire group.​

http://micechat.com/85860-miceage-update-bridge-to-nowhere/

Read your link an nowhere did it state that people with "invisible disabilities" were responsible for the fraud that has increased with DAS. I assume you will be offering up some concrete proof soon or should I just go ahead and add you to my ignore list?

 

[BuzzKillington]

Read your link an nowhere did it state that people with "invisible disabilities" were responsible for the fraud that has increased with DAS. I assume you will be offering up some concrete proof soon or should I just go ahead and add you to my ignore list?

Only those with sensory disorders qualify for DAS now that they stole it from the traditionally disabled who these passes were originally intended.

 

[danlb_2000]

Don't be so obtuse! You know good and well those who are wheelchair bound are banned from DAS and since there are a very limited number of wheelchair accessible ride vehicles, it is obvious that the wait times will be longer for these people.

As for seeing wheelchair bound guest getting in and out of an attraction before you could go through the queue, you must be thinking of the days of GAC when those guest in wheelchairs would go though the alternate entrance and then with a hop, skip and jump, spring from their wheelchairs onto the first ride vehicle that comes around. These low-life wheelchair abusers ranked right up there with the parents of children with a mild sensory disorder who milked the system.

People in wheelchairs can't use DAS?

 

[Lucky]

Only those with sensory disorders qualify for DAS now that they stole it from the traditionally disabled who these passes were originally intended.

Wrong on all three counts.

 

[Todd H]

Only those with sensory disorders qualify for DAS now that they stole it from the traditionally disabled who these passes were originally intended.

Or, oh I don't know, people that LIE about their child having a sensory disorder. Because, as I hope you are aware, a doctor's note isn't required to obtain a DAS. So please stop blaming people with sensory disorders for the fraud and abuse. It makes you appear to have what I like to refer to as a "low intelligence disorder."