Florida commission: Disney discriminated against autistic visitors

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
Interesting attack coming from someone who habitually comes onto these threads whenever they pop up calling those with autism and their parents, "devils", "traitors", and likes to say that invisible disabilities are lesser than visible ones.
I think Buzz is being sarcastic. He's ridiculing those who make such comments. Not that anyone DOES make such comments. But he appears to be making a strawman argument that if you have any sort of problem with the guest assistance program, then you must somehow hate disabled people.

But maybe I'm wrong.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I think Buzz is being sarcastic. He's ridiculing those who make such comments.

But maybe I'm wrong.
Unfortunately I don't think so. We've been through these threads many times in the past. They are always the same.

Someone posts an article about the autism suit. Some people who have never read a past thread show up and start making the same comments. (Why don't they have trouble waiting at the airport. Maybe these kids just shouldn't go to WDW. etc...) Some posters such as @Lucky, @arko, @StarWarsGirl95, and myself with experience on the topic show up and try to provide some rational context and explanations for the issue mixed with an understanding that DAS is working for the majority.

@BuzzKillington shows up (or someone with a different screen name with a personal history and viewpoints conveniently similar to Buzz as a few of them have been banned) and starts trolling parents of those with autism on the board. Saying things like they are faking it. Non-physical disabilities are a scam. "Deal with the Devil" has come up many times.

This illicits more responses. @ParentsOf4 shows up with logical legal explanations as to why people are misunderstanding the ADA. The back and forth continues as new people show up who haven't read the thread or past ones to make the same tired comments again. We then provide the same responses in attempt to provide context and explanation. The "Buzz" then either rolls back his rhetoric saying he never meant to call Autism a scam or goes so far as to get banned. Then the thread fades away until the next story comes out.

Rinse and repeat every two months or so.
 

Lucky

Well-Known Member
I think Buzz is being sarcastic. He's ridiculing those who make such comments. Not that anyone DOES make such comments. But he appears to be making a strawman argument that if you have any sort of problem with the guest assistance program, then you must somehow hate disabled people.

But maybe I'm wrong.
@Gomer is correct about BuzzKillington's views and his many previous accounts (BufordTJustice, Preston Chatsworth, Mr. Spalding, Pinkerton, etc.).
 
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BuzzKillington

Active Member
Interesting attack coming from someone who habitually comes onto these threads whenever they pop up calling those with autism and their parents, "devils", "traitors", and likes to say that invisible disabilities are lesser than visible ones.

I have never stated that those with invisible disabilities are lesser than visible ones. However, I have stated that inviting those with invisible disabilities to partake in the GAC program led to abuse, especially by those who have mild sensory disorders and could benefit from the challenges of managing a queue. It is this particular group who I consider traitors because they took a program that really benefited the traditionally disabled and they ran it into the ground by using it as an unlimited FOTL FP.
 

MichWolv

Born Modest. Wore Off.
Premium Member
This ADA lawsuit has come up a few times on these threads, generating a great deal of debate each time. For those of you who might be interested in the less emotional aspects of the lawsuit, I decided to put together the following.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) was passed in 1990 and strengthened in 2008. It passed with near-unanimous support from both Democrats and Republicans. The two parties might be partisan on most issues, but ADA is not one of them.

ADA protects those with physical or mental disabilities from discrimination. ADA specifies that discrimination occurs when there is “a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations”.

ADA applies to private companies such as Disney that sell goods or services to the public. Amusement parks are specifically cited in ADA. By law, WDW must comply with ADA.

ADA requires Disney to take proactive steps to eliminate discrimination due to disability at its theme parks.

For those with mobility issues, Disney must build ramps, provide accessible buses, and alter hotel rooms. Disney must provide braille menus or alternatives for the blind. Disney must assist those with hearing disabilities. Disney has spent tens-of-millions of dollars in order to comply with this aspect of ADA.

Disney also must do something for those with mental disabilities, which is why it created the Disability Access Service (DAS). To be clear, Disney did not create DAS because it is being magnanimous. It created DAS because Disney is legally obligated to create something like it.

ADA has limitations. It uses terms such as “reasonable modifications” and “fundamentally alter” to define those limits. (I’ll explain these in a bit.) Above all, ADA places safety first. Safety trumps the rest of ADA. Companies sometimes try to stretch the definition of safety because they know if they win this argument, they’ll win the case.

Some ADA cases have made it to the U.S. Supreme Court. In a relatively well-known case, a PGA golfer with a physical disability wanted to use a golf cart during tournament play. The PGA fought him and lost.

One of the footnotes in this PGA v. Martin ruling outlines the basic legal principles the Courts consider when making an ADA ruling:

As we have noted, the statute contemplates three inquiries: whether the requested modification is "reasonable," whether it is "necessary" for the disabled individual, and whether it would "fundamentally alter the nature of" the competition.​

For the plaintiffs in the Disney lawsuit to win their case, they must prevail on all 3 points.

Necessary Modification

The plaintiffs must show that what is being requested is a “necessary modification”.

This is where I believe the plaintiffs’ case is weakest.

A necessary modification means the modification is required in order to accommodate the disability. In most successful ADA lawsuits, the plaintiffs’ need for the modification was obvious. Often it was uncontested.

In the Disney lawsuit, neither side disputes that some modification is necessary. However, the two sides disagree on how much of a modification is needed.

Disney has offered the plaintiffs DAS, a fair modification. The plaintiffs claim that DAS is insufficient.

For this point, the plaintiffs need to show that the modifications they seek are necessary, which is made more difficult given Disney’s willingness to provide them with something that's fair.

Prior rulings suggest that it’s insufficient for the plaintiffs to get on the stand and claim, “I need this modification”. A statement of need is not proof of need, and the Courts generally have not showed much sympathy for this tactic. Usually, it requires corroborative evidence to support the claim. Autism is a well-established mental disability but getting on the stand and crying about “my child’s life challenges” is not going to win the case in court.

IMO, the plaintiffs need to present expert medical testimony to support their claim. If they don’t, then prior rulings suggest Disney will win.

Even if the plaintiffs present expert testimony, Disney can counter with its own experts. It could come down to a judge deciding whose testimony is more persuasive.

One thing to keep in mind is that Autism is a spectrum disorder. What works for one person with Autism might not work for another. Thus, today’s finding that Disney discriminated wasn’t because Disney failed to provide a modification; it was because DAS was a “blanket accommodation that did not take into account the nuances between various disabilities”.

Reasonable Modification

Prior rulings suggest that the Courts do not define a “reasonable modification” to be one that’s ‘fair’ or ‘equal’ to those without disabilities. The Courts don’t seem to be applying the “reasonable person” standard to this. Instead, the Courts have ruled that it’s perfectly acceptable to provide those with disabilities with preferential treatment, if this preferential treatment is needed in order to accommodate the disability.

Taking this one step further, the Supreme Court ruled that an “accommodation is not reasonable if it imposes undue financial and administrative burdens”. Thus, it appears that the correct interpretation of an “unreasonable modification” is one that creates an excessive burden for the defendant (i.e. Disney).

Given Disney’s considerable financial resources, I don’t see how Disney wins this point.

Fundamental Alteration

Unlike the first two points, the burden of proving that something is a “fundamental alteration” is on the defendant (i.e. Disney).

Generally, the Courts have used a high standard when determining whether something is a fundamental alteration. An alteration does not make it a fundamental alteration. The use of the qualifier “fundamental” explains why the Courts have used this high standard.

Based on the reasoning applied in PGA v. Martin, it appears that if an entity has a way to easily modify its rules in order to accommodate a disability, then it does not rise to the standard of a fundamental alteration.

Disney already offers FP and FP+, which offer limited express line access to all Guests. Furthermore, front line supervisors have the authority to distribute additional complementary FP/FP+ for numerous reasons. Providing additional complementary FP/FP+ in order to accommodate a legally protected disability certainly would not seem to constitute a fundamental alteration.

As with "reasonable modification", don’t confuse “fundamental alteration” with ‘fair’. You and I might think it’s unfair for someone with a disability to receive preferential treatment. However, this does not fundamentally alter the nature of an attraction, especially since Disney already offers an express line for most attractions. The allotment of FP+ is a rule that Disney easily could modify to accommodate someone with a disability.

What would I consider to be a fundamental alteration?

IMO, requiring a roller coaster to operate at (for example) 5 MPH to accommodate a person’s disability would be a fundamental alteration. By its very nature, a roller coaster is fast and bumpy. Slowing it down to 5 MPH would be a fundamental alteration. It would alter its essence.

What does it mean?

According to today’s article, Disney “Argued that the complaints failed to prove that the Disability Access Service program hasn’t accommodated their disability”. I believe this is in response to the “necessary modification” inquiry. IMO, this is Disney’s best line of attack. I don't place much weight in the commission's finding since I suspect they were more sympathetic than the Courts might be.

The article doesn’t mention anything about “fundamental alteration” or “reasonable modification”. It would be interesting to learn if these points were raised at all to the commission.
Excellent explanation and reasonable analysis.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I have never stated that those with invisible disabilities are lesser than visible ones. However, I have stated that inviting those with invisible disabilities to partake in the GAC program led to abuse, especially by those who have mild sensory disorders and could benefit from the challenges of managing a queue. It is this particular group who I consider traitors because they took a program that really benefited the traditionally disabled and they ran it into the ground by using it as an unlimited FOTL FP.
I believe it was the "Pinkerton" personality that was spewing that one.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
Whether they teach the CMs or not, Disney isn't allowed to make that judgement. Having a disability puts you in a protected class but there's no gatekeeper to validate who belongs in that class and who doesn't. The best Disney can do to confirm that a guest has a disability is the guest saying "I have a disability," and that's the end of it.

All of this is beside the point. We're sitting here debating whether Disney should have a program for guests with disabilities or not, but nobody (including Disney) is suggesting that they don't or shouldn't. Disney HAS a preferred-access system for guests with disabilities. It's just not as cushy as an entitled subset of that population would like it to be. This should be a non-issue. If the debate were "GAC or nothing" or "DAS or nothing," then there's a conversation to be had. However, the issue of "GAC or DAS" is ridiculous.

That is simply not going to happen, simply because there is no quick training course that would be sufficient.

That's my point. Disney can make the argument, however weak, that the additional training for CMs does present an administrative burden for them. And with thousands of CMs that would need training, it can be a burden to them. I am not saying they shouldn't do it, just that they can argue in court that it is a burden.
 

DoTheImpossible

Active Member
Did I call them entitled?? Yes, I did. While the situation of Jimmy is different than that of Jenny, what else do you call it but entitlement? I have condition X therefor I have a divine right to Y.

I have a son that is on the spectrum. I finally came to the realization of this when on the bus to the Boardwalk when I had a "Parenthood" moment (Watch the movie Parenthood). However, I need to teach him how to cope with his personality rather than to be a medicated zombie like a good 1/3 of his class. To immerse him on special treatment now will only hurt him as an adult.

I'll never attempt to tell you how to treat your child. And I'm completely against entitlements. But I look at it quite different. It's a theme park. It isn't some city where you get special perks because of a condition. It's a place families go to have fun, and many need the assistance of programs like this and don't see it as teaching their child to wait for handouts. It's up to the individual to use the system or not, which you have every right not to use. Regardless, I think it's obvious there needs to be a simple system that works the same way the Fastpass+ technology does.
 

arko

Well-Known Member
I knew it!! I can spot a parent of an autistic child a mile away after a couple of post due to their condescending attitude toward those who dare challenge the prerequisite that only guest with sensory disorders are warranted these special assistance passes.

Congratulations on your child's achievements but do you really think it was Disney’s premise for the GAC and now DAS to be utilized by the likes of your child given their obvious high-functioning ability?
my attitude is simply in response to your belief that those in wheelchairs are the only ones worthy, and those with invisible disabilites were bullies pushing them out of the way.

If you actually read many of my comments, I believe the GAC was beyond the minimum and it helped all disabled who had it including those in wheelchairs. But it was not autistic kids who got the GAC removed it was those with no disabilities exploiting a system not designed for them that forced Disney to lessen the what was given.
My point was simple now that the DAS is in place Disney has basically decided to go with the letter of the law. I am perfectly ok with this and we have adpapted accordingly. As its stands right now with the DAS you don't get on any sooner than someone who showed up and waited in the stanby line. In fact it might actually take you longer if the standby wait time is actually less than posted.Which is often the case, but sometimes its longer so its in essence a wash.
What you are aksing for is that those in wheelchairs wait less time because they have to wait for a handicapped car. In the end you want preferential treatment to reduce wait times. Fundamentally its a valid argument, but at this point Disney is treating everyone at the same level so if they are going to go the extra mile for those in wheelchairs why not those with sensory issues, or someone who is blind or deaf.

I don't ask Disney to make their fireworks silent because it hurts my sons ears, we bought him ear protection or we don't stay for the fireworks. The simple fact is being in a wheelchair is going to cause delays even if you wait less time because of simple logistics.

Now this does not mean that some in wheelchairs would not benefit from the DAS due to issues with their respective disabilities that would make them more confortable etc by waiting outside the lines. But the simple act of being in a wheelchair is covered by Disney making the lines wheelchair accessible and the ride cars accessible as well. They are under no obligation to make every car that way as it would fundamentally change the ride.

As for my son's high functioning ability, it took a long time to get there and it doesn't make him any less autistic, he just has a better toolset. But his tolerance levels still have a limit and he still requires help in many aspects of his life. So yes he may go to college , but he has no guarantee that he will be able to keep a job because he may have a meltdown at 25 in front of his co workers. Also because he has come so far we have had to rely on the DAS and GAC less and less, but it is a nice safety net for when we need it. But I also remember when he was 4-7 and how much the GAC helped us limit the stressors that would set him off.
 

MichWolv

Born Modest. Wore Off.
Premium Member
However, I need to teach him how to cope with his personality rather than to be a medicated zombie like a good 1/3 of his class. To immerse him on special treatment now will only hurt him as an adult.

Not if you do it carefully. You don't have to refuse assistance and accommodations in order to teach, train, or cause your son to adapt. While doing it that way may work, it is very likely that there are less painful ways to achieve the same ends.
 
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GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
ADA may not mention wait times but it does state that a disabled person should "be entitled to full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation". It is a proven fact that wheelchair bound patrons' wait times are longer than any other park guest and therefore they are able to spend less time on the rides (= enjoyment).

Proven fact? Do you have the proof to show?
I've seen wheelchair bound guests in and out of attractions before I could get thru the queue line, so I'm real curious just where this has been proven?
 

jlthomas81

Well-Known Member
So I am a troll for pointing out how the traditionally disabled were thrown to the wayside by Disney due to abuse by those with mild sensory disorders?

Everyone on the planet has "mild sensory disorders" (i,e; chalkboards, certain fabrics give you chills). Individuals on the spectrum have more than just "mild" issues, which is why a doctor saw fit to give them an ASD diagnosis in the first place.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I think is is because driving is considered a privilege, not a right. You and I do not have a right to drive a vehicle. If we pass a series of road, written, and eye tests, then the state will grant us the privilege of legally driving a car.

But having a HC placard does not regulate if you are allowed to drive or not.. I don't think that has much to do with it.

Parking is a funny beast... because for other forms of accessibility, the ADA defines WHO should be encompassed, and what the design standards should be. For parking, the ADA defines the design standards, but allows the states to define the 'WHO' in determining who is eligible. It's also a standout in that state/localities will have civil penalties for those who abuse the 'accommodation' where for other things there is not. (parking in a HC spot, etc).

The ADA calls out that there should be designated spaces made available, and dictates their design... but doesn't directly address that the spaces may be regulated by the state or localities.

The definition of eligibility for HC cards also varies significantly from the ADA definition of a disability. For instance, under ADA, temporary ailments are not considered disabilities... but under state HC placard requirements, you could get a temporary HC tag in many states for temporary issues.

I have not spent the time to understand why someone could not challenge their use of a HC spot under the ADA without a HC placard. In the spirit of the law in general, one would think you could..
 

BuzzKillington

Active Member
Proven fact? Do you have the proof to show?
I've seen wheelchair bound guests in and out of attractions before I could get thru the queue line, so I'm real curious just where this has been proven?

Don't be so obtuse! You know good and well those who are wheelchair bound are banned from DAS and since there are a very limited number of wheelchair accessible ride vehicles, it is obvious that the wait times will be longer for these people.

As for seeing wheelchair bound guest getting in and out of an attraction before you could go through the queue, you must be thinking of the days of GAC when those guest in wheelchairs would go though the alternate entrance and then with a hop, skip and jump, spring from their wheelchairs onto the first ride vehicle that comes around. These low-life wheelchair abusers ranked right up there with the parents of children with a mild sensory disorder who milked the system.
 

GrammieBee

Well-Known Member
As an ECV user, it is, once again time to defend those of us who cause no problems, do not run into people and want only to enjoy the parks to the best of our abilities
.
Contrary to some other posts, I expect to wait in line and take ny turn like everyone else, If I have to wait extra time for a special ride vehicle, so be it. It is a fact of life that I am "inconvenienced" so I have to deal with it. Life is not always fair and my disabilities are my problem. Maybe it is a generational thing, but I do not want or expect preferential treatment other than enough accessability that I can actually experience the ride or show.

Now that my husband has serious back problems, he also will be forced (much to his utter dislike) to use an ECV in the parks. It will be interesting to see what problems we face and how we are perceived during our next trip to WDW. A couple of old fogies in ECV's; what's not to like.
 

MarthaMartha1

New Member
That's my point. Disney can make the argument, however weak, that the additional training for CMs does present an administrative burden for them. And with thousands of CMs that would need training, it can be a burden to them. I am not saying they shouldn't do it, just that they can argue in court that it is a burden.
I think dealing with the consequences of abuse (if they went back to the GAC) would also count as an administrative burden for Disney.
 

GrammieBee

Well-Known Member
Don't be so obtuse! You know good and well those who are wheelchair bound are banned from DAS and since there are a very limited number of wheelchair accessible ride vehicles, it is obvious that the wait times will be longer for these people.

As for seeing wheelchair bound guest getting in and out of an attraction before you could go through the queue, you must be thinking of the days of GAC when those guest in wheelchairs would go though the alternate entrance and then with a hop, skip and jump, spring from their wheelchairs onto the first ride vehicle that comes around. These low-life wheelchair abusers ranked right up there with the parents of children with a mild sensory disorder who milked the system.


I can get out of my ECV or wheelchair and into a ride vehicle, but it certainly is not with a hop, skip and a jump. So shoot me if I try not to hold up the boarding line whenever possible.
 

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