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FL Governor tells CDC to get its act together

ChuckElias

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
They just don't want to be bothered with COVID protocols. That's the way it's been since November. That's the way it is now (at least, for Carnival).

The cruise lines don't want to do the work. They don't want the responsibility for saying they chose not to cruise. They don't want the responsibility for sick passengers. They want the CDC to say, "Go back to normal." And if they do so before everyone can be vaccinated), they can then blame the CDC if anyone gets sick.
Your statements are honestly just nonsense. Even when all the hygiene requirements are met (and I think all the cruise lines are happy to meet those), it still will be impossible to sail to many (if not most) US and/or Caribbean ports. And since "cruises to nowhere" are still illegal in the US, that pretty much kills the possibility of cruising at all. It has nothing to do with wanting to spend money or wanting to take responsibility.

 

nickys

Premium Member
Your statements are honestly just nonsense. Even when all the hygiene requirements are met (and I think all the cruise lines are happy to meet those), it still will be impossible to sail to many (if not most) US and/or Caribbean ports. And since "cruises to nowhere" are still illegal in the US, that pretty much kills the possibility of cruising at all. It has nothing to do with wanting to spend money or wanting to take responsibility.

There already is one cruise ship sailing ā€œto nowhereā€ up the South Carolina coast. So it canā€™t be illegal. Now it could be thatā€™s a rarity and is actually an American company operating it, which would explain it.

And I believe one cruise line has already announced sailing from Barbados and including a couple of ports.
 

ChuckElias

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
There already is one cruise ship sailing ā€œto nowhereā€ up the South Carolina coast. So it canā€™t be illegal. Now it could be thatā€™s a rarity and is actually an American company operating it, which would explain it.
Sorry, I wrote too quickly. You're right, of course, that US-flagged ships can cruise to nowhere or between US ports with no Jones Act restrictions. And there's more than one. I'm pretty sure American Queen Steamboat company is sailing the Mississippi River, and American Cruise Line is sailing as well.

But none of the mainstream cruise lines that we're talking about is US-flagged. (With the exception of NCL's Pride of America, just so nobody can play "gotcha").

 

nickys

Premium Member
I think several Caribbean countries have announced their requirements for cruise passengers.

The Bahamas have, for example, and they will cause some issues for the cruise lines. As in, you need to have had a negative PCR test within the previous three days AND have one of the rapid tests on the day of arrival before disembarkation.
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
Your statements are honestly just nonsense. Even when all the hygiene requirements are met (and I think all the cruise lines are happy to meet those), it still will be impossible to sail to many (if not most) US and/or Caribbean ports.

We're still waiting for a cruise line to spell out why the protocols are too onerous. They either just cancel, or in the case of Carnival, threaten to take their business elsewhere.

It would be nice for a cruise line to make the case you're making for them instead of you and all of us guessing and presuming what the problem is.

Don't you think it odd that a cruise line hasn't made that case yet? So far, all we got from them was high dudgeon that the Conditional Sail order was extended to November. Which was a lie. It always had an expiration date of November.

Don't you think it odd that the cruise lines got the operations technical specs they've been calling for and then haven't said anything (except for Carnival threatening to take their business elsewhere)?

Plus, what you just said is nonsense. You say cruise lines are happy to meet the protocol, but somehow they can't?

Why exactly is it "impossible" for them to sail if they're "happy" to put in the protocols in place?

And why are people so keen to defend the cruise lines? Just think back to all the shady stuff they've been doing over the years: terrible work conditions for the lower deck staff; avoiding the more stringent U.S. labor and health laws by registering in foreign countries; sick boats stuck out at sea; boats that lost power and people were stuck out at sea for a weak with piling up sewage, etc...

I've said above that I'm willing to be proven wrong. But people just surmising that the cruise lines are just victims of the CDC with no real proof of that, but just an emotional argument, isn't going to prove me wrong.
 

aliceismad

Well-Known Member
There already is one cruise ship sailing ā€œto nowhereā€ up the South Carolina coast. So it canā€™t be illegal. Now it could be thatā€™s a rarity and is actually an American company operating it, which would explain it.

And I believe one cruise line has already announced sailing from Barbados and including a couple of ports.
Foreign-flagged ships are required per the Jones Act to stop in at least one foreign port. It's a Border Patrol and Customs issues due to immigration concerns.

I don't think that's holding anything up for the cruise lines at this point, though. RCI and NCL have made/are making deals with ports for stops or embarkation/debarkation in Mexico, the Bahamas, Bermuda, Jamaica, Honduras, Belize, St. Lucia, Barbados, St. Maarten, and Antigua. Personally I think the few announced cruises by RCI and NCL are just a stop gap - a proof of concept to get people to feel comfortable booking until U.S. ports are opened.

There has been a lot of to-do about the ships' HVAC systems and upgrading those. Not sure at what cost or to what extent work has been done.
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member


After a week of threatening legal action against the CDC, Governor DeSantis is following through on his threat and initiating legal action. I think this will get things moving. One way or the other.

From the article:

The CDC began taking steps to restart the cruise industry back in October when it issued a "conditional sailing order" that sets guidelines for how cruise lines test and screen crew members for COVID-19.

It will be interesting to see the language of the suit claiming that the CDC isn't allowing cruising when there is a process for allowing cruising.

The only question is whether the suit will be dismissed for lack of standing or for lack of fact.
 

monothingie

I once was a ferret for a day.
Premium Member
From the article:

The CDC began taking steps to restart the cruise industry back in October when it issued a "conditional sailing order" that sets guidelines for how cruise lines test and screen crew members for COVID-19.

It will be interesting to see the language of the suit claiming that the CDC isn't allowing cruising when there is a process for allowing cruising.

The only question is whether the suit will be dismissed for lack of standing or for lack of fact.
I believe the crux of the lawsuit is that the CDC overstepped its authority in issuing the blanket restrictions. It's not so much that there is a process for allowing resumption of cruises. The state's lawsuit suggests that comparable industries have been allowed to operate with none of the restrictions present in the CSO, yet cruising is subject to these arbitrary conditions and still shutdown. He is looking to get everything in the CSO tossed.

Honestly he'd have less of a leg to stand on if the CDC wasn't so apparently hostile to the cruising industry. Their own actions are their biggest detriment.
 

ChuckElias

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
We're still waiting for a cruise line to spell out why the protocols are too onerous. They either just cancel, or in the case of Carnival, threaten to take their business elsewhere.

Did you read the article. It spells out EXACTLY why the Phase 2 protocols are too onerous. Here it is again. . .


It would be nice for a cruise line to make the case you're making for them

Why? Who cares who points out the facts to you? They are facts, nonetheless.

Don't you think it odd that a cruise line hasn't made that case yet?

No. Not even a little bit. PR. There's an industry coalition (CLIA) to speak for them so that they don't look like money-hungry monolith corporations that don't care about the health and safety of their clients.

Don't you think it odd that the cruise lines got the operations technical specs they've been calling for and then haven't said anything (except for Carnival threatening to take their business elsewhere)?

No, Not even a little bit. See above.

Plus, what you just said is nonsense. You say cruise lines are happy to meet the protocol, but somehow they can't?

And again, I will ask. . . Did you read the article?? The cruise lines have already completed Phase 1 of the Framework -- happily. But Phase 2 requires conditions that many ports themselves cannot fulfill. That's not the fault of the cruise lines. That's the result of CDC's onerous requirements.

And why are people so keen to defend the cruise lines?

1) We love cruising. We don't like cruising. We love cruising.
2) The economic impact to thousands of ancillary businesses (not to mention tens of thousands of individual employees, business owners, and municipalities).
3) Basic fairness. Hotels, airlines, theme parks, restaurants, churches, trains, sporting events, live entertainment have been allowed to resume operations with reasonable covid precautions. But somehow, for some reason, cruising has been singled out as being too dangerous. This is fundamentally unfair.
Just think back to all the shady stuff they've been doing over the years: terrible work conditions for the lower deck staff; avoiding the more stringent U.S. labor and health laws by registering in foreign countries; sick boats stuck out at sea; boats that lost power and people were stuck out at sea for a weak with piling up sewage, etc...

Have you ever heard of a "red herring". If not, you just presented one.

I've said above that I'm willing to be proven wrong. But people just surmising that the cruise lines are just victims of the CDC with no real proof of that, but just an emotional argument, isn't going to prove me wrong.

I think you may be posting in the wrong forum.
 

Bob Harlem

Well-Known Member


After a week of threatening legal action against the CDC, Governor DeSantis is following through on his threat and initiating legal action. I think this will get things moving. One way or the other.

Cruises will from be happening in July from the US one way or the other.

Florida's claim is that the Federal Government, through the CDC, did not follow the requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act which requires broadly that appropriate consultation take place before significant changes occur. Recourse that they are looking for is an injunction by the court to stop the operation and enforcement of the Conditional Sailing Order and allow cruise ships to operate.
 
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aliceismad

Well-Known Member
Did you read the article. It spells out EXACTLY why the Phase 2 protocols are too onerous. Here it is again. . .

From this article, this is a huge issue: "In order for a ship to obtain a Conditional Sailing Certificate, the CSO requires that cruise lines enter into agreements with shoreside healthcare entities and port authorities regarding the care and evacuation of patients and also be able to isolate and quarantine Covid-19 cases and their close contacts."

The CDC doesn't want another ship floating around with a bunch of infected people. I've seen what NCL and RCI say about what they can do on the ship should you become infected, but I haven't seen a plan for how to disembark sick people. Perhaps requiring vaccinations would minimize that worry, but it doesn't take it to zero.

CLIA says it takes about 90 days to ready a ship for sail, so if a ship started prepping today, that pushes sailing to 7 July.
 

aliceismad

Well-Known Member

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
Here's the filed complaint.


"What the CDC did was completely unlawful."

"What the CDC did was lawful but excessive."

"Here are the things the CDC said cruise lines should do to restart... and we're not going to say whether any attempt was made to follow those protocols."

"The most recent guidelines made things tougher with daily reports rather than weekly... and were not going to mention that the cruise lines were prodding the CDC for those updated guidelines."

"The CDC never said why being in a plane is different than being on a boat... I mean, they're exactly the same, right? (if you ignore the plane's filtered and fresh air circulation)?"

"We have standing... honestly... even though we're not one of the cruise lines who, if they thought they had a case, would have brought the suit themselves."


 

Archie123

Well-Known Member
Oh Ronnie, I like how you think any cruise line will actually listen to you and your absolute stupidity when you say that cruise lines cannot require passengers to be vaccinated in order to be able to sail even if that's what the cruise lines want to do. Hmmmm, I wonder who is going to win that fight. ;)

 
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