FL Governor tells CDC to get its act together

[MaryJaneP]

Can DCL and other major cruise line absolutely not meet the conditional sailing order requirements? A test sailing seems a good way to show that, upon meeting certain conditions, cruises can resume. SpaceX is trying to develop a rocket for passengers (currently scheduled to fly this Fall) and has so far, gone through 11 tries, all of which have failed in one way or another. If the cruise industry is so set upon a return, show that they will not explode upon landing.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Can DCL and other major cruise line absolutely not meet the conditional sailing order requirements? A test sailing seems a good way to show that, upon meeting certain conditions, cruises can resume. SpaceX is trying to develop a rocket for passengers (currently scheduled to fly this Fall) and has so far, gone through 11 tries, all of which have failed in one way or another. If the cruise industry is so set upon a return, show that they will not explode upon landing.

It seems the cruise lines would rather say, "to hell with you, we will sail from another country and ask Americans to fly there."

 

[MaryJaneP]

Not sure how this helps FL Gov get people (presumably in Florida and not in another country's airport/Port) "get people back to work".

Also not sure if DCL and other major cruise lines, cannot versus choose not, to try the test cruises spelled out in the conditional sailing order. Wouldn't people need to be working to get those test cruises launched?

 

[ToTBellHop]

Not sure how this helps FL Gov get people (presumably in Florida and not in another country's airport/Port) "get people back to work".

Also not sure if DCL and other major cruise lines, cannot versus choose not, to try the test cruises spelled out in the conditional sailing order. Wouldn't people need to be working to get those test cruises launched?

Porters and staff in the port buildings?

 

[MaryJaneP]

Porters and staff in the port buildings?

Seems like cruises involve more employees than just "Porters and staff in port buildings", but, as always, we may be mistaken.

 

[monothingie]

Not sure how this helps FL Gov get people (presumably in Florida and not in another country's airport/Port) "get people back to work".

Also not sure if DCL and other major cruise lines, cannot versus choose not, to try the test cruises spelled out in the conditional sailing order. Wouldn't people need to be working to get those test cruises launched?

The current CSO is outdated and does not reflect current circumstances. It's like finally finishing your Halloween Decorations just in time for Christmas.

Having cruise ships leave their home ports for offshore ports has a major effect on the regional economy, especially the hospitality industry to support and cater to all those travelers. How many people leaving out of Port Canaveral also make a stop at Central Florida attractions, or those leaving out of Miami for South Florida attractions? It has a major impact in a state that depends on the hospitality and tourism industry.

 

[ChuckElias]

It seems the cruise lines would rather say, "to hell with you, we will sail from another country and ask Americans to fly there."

Do you really think this? Would they honestly rather sail one or two ships in two itineraries than comply with a process that would allow them to resume full operations?

 

[ToTBellHop]

Do you really think this? Would they honestly rather sail one or two ships in two itineraries than comply with a process that would allow them to resume full operations?

I mean...that’s what they’re doing.

 

[nickys]

Honest question here. How are cruise lines going to get their crew vaccinated?

Let’s take DCL and the Magic as an example. It’s currently in Europe, presumably with a skeleton crew on board. There is no way to pay privately for vaccines over here, whether U.K. or EU. Come the summer DCL hope to be cruising around the U.K.

So how do they get from now to ready for passengers?

 

[ChuckElias]

Honest question here. How are cruise lines going to get their crew vaccinated?

That's a great point. But I'm pretty sure Celebrity has said that their crew will be fully vaccinated.

 

[nickys]

That's a great point. But I'm pretty sure Celebrity has said that their crew will be fully vaccinated.

I think they have. But again I don’t know how they intend to do that.

I know Crystal have said their intention is to have a fully vaccinated crew but that it might not possible before the first cruises. At least they acknowledge the problem.

 

[ChuckElias]

Here is the official guidelines as published by the CDC back in Oct 2020:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/CDC-Conditional-Sail-Order_10_30_2020-p.pdf

Skip to page 24 to read the Minimum Requirements in order to obtain a Conditional Sailing certificate.

I mean...that’s what they’re doing.

But not by choice. @jme posted the official guidelines and I went to page 24, and it does indeed (as we knew) list the conditions for conducting simulated voyages. However, the conditions include the phrase

as may be required by CDC technical instructions or orders.

My understanding is that those technical instructions have not been issued. Am I wrong on that?

 

[MisterPenguin]

The criteria established in Fall 2020 is out of date. There is no consideration of vaccinated passengers or guidance on cruise operations with fully vaccinated crew and passengers. The cruise line operators are reluctant to make operational decisions with criteria that is obsolete. The CDC is slow walking presenting anything new and preventing any progress. The CDC is simply not following the science. DeSantis and the CLA are right to take them to task on it.

Yes, there are no new protocols based on the existence of vaccines. That's because the Conditional Restrictions protocols are still in effect and are sufficient to restart cruises based on the reality that a portion of cruise line guests will *not* be vaccinated.

But, since last November, cruises could still have happened if cruise lines followed the Conditional Restrictions. As far as I can tell, before vaccines, I can't find any reference to a list of further protocols that cruise lines were waiting for. The Conditional Restriction made it clear: Follow the COVID hygiene protocols. These are the same ones states and businesses implemented: reduced capacity, plexiglass, masks, distancing, ventilation, sanitization, etc... The Conditional Restrictions expected the cruise lines to implement these sensible protocols and do a practice run to show the CDC they're working. There is, AFAIK, no other protocol document that the cruise lines are waiting for under the current Conditional Restriction. If someone claims there is, they need to provide that link.

Explained: What Cruise Lines Must Do to Sail Again (According to the CDC Framework)

The big news in cruising is that the CDC has taken the step of letting the 'No Sail Order' expire. But it's not back to sailing just yet. Replacing the ban on sailing is a 'Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.' That framework lays out in detail what the CDC requires cruise lines to do to...

www.cruzely.com

Now, if you claim there should be a new Conditional Order, one that takes into account vaccinations. That's a different story. If cruise lines are waiting for that mythical beast... they're choosing to hold off cruising in order to avoid the current Conditional Order.

They want a pain-free return to cruising with everyone vaccinated. But everyone won't be vaccinated fully (second dose plus two weeks) until mid-June. And even then, children won't be vaccinated. So, unless cruises are willing to run adult-only, vaccine-passport cruises, the current Conditional Order will stand until children are vaccinated (or herd immunity practically wipes out all cases). That's not happening until the Fall (I would guess).

 

[ToTBellHop]

Yes, there are no new protocols based on the existence of vaccines. That's because the Conditional Restrictions protocols are still in effect and are sufficient to restart cruises based on the reality that a portion of cruise line guests will *not* be vaccinated.

But, since last November, cruises could still have happened if cruise lines followed the Conditional Restrictions. As far as I can tell, before vaccines, I can't find any reference to a list of further protocols that cruise lines were waiting for. The Conditional Restriction made it clear: Follow the COVID hygiene protocols. These are the same ones states and businesses implemented: reduced capacity, plexiglass, masks, distancing, ventilation, sanitization, etc... The Conditional Restrictions expected the cruise lines to implement these sensible protocols and do a practice run to show the CDC they're working. There is, AFAIK, no other protocol document that the cruise lines are waiting for under the current Conditional Restriction. If someone claims there is, they need to provide that link.

Explained: What Cruise Lines Must Do to Sail Again (According to the CDC Framework)

The big news in cruising is that the CDC has taken the step of letting the 'No Sail Order' expire. But it's not back to sailing just yet. Replacing the ban on sailing is a 'Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.' That framework lays out in detail what the CDC requires cruise lines to do to...

www.cruzely.com

Now, if you claim there should be a new Conditional Order, one that takes into account vaccinations. That's a different story. If cruise lines are waiting for that mythical beast... they're choosing to hold off cruising in order to avoid the current Conditional Order.

They want a pain-free return to cruising with everyone vaccinated. But everyone won't be vaccinated fully (second dose plus two weeks) until mid-June. And even then, children won't be vaccinated. So, unless cruises are willing to run adult-only, vaccine-passport cruises, the current Conditional Order will stand until children are vaccinated (or herd immunity practically wipes out all cases). That's not happening until the Fall (I would guess).

We now understand why Chapek said he hopes for cruises in a limited capacity in the fall.

 

[jme]

My understanding is that those technical instructions have not been issued. Am I wrong on that?

Ah, that very well may be the case (and I wouldn't be surprised by it) - but I honestly have no insight and can't find any sources claiming that one way or the other. Although, one could surmise that they probably haven't if not one line has attempted a simulated cruise yet.

 

[aliceismad]

Not sure how this helps FL Gov get people (presumably in Florida and not in another country's airport/Port) "get people back to work".

"According to a 2019 economic impact report on the cruise industry from CLIA, Florida accounted for 60.1% of all passenger embarkations in the U.S. in 2019, making it the leading state for cruise activity. Florida businesses received more than $9 billion in direct expenditures last year."

https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2020/12/14/cruise-industry-shutdown-losses-to-surpass-32b.html#:~:text=According%20to%20a%202019%20economic,in%20direct%20expenditures%20last%20year.

The economic impact to Florida is far beyond porters. The job impact affects the call centers housed there, travel agencies, hotels, airports, taxi drivers, restaurants, etc. But more than the jobs it's the cash. Cruise lines paying port fees, etc.

Re: crew vaccination, Royal Caribbean and Celebrity have said that they will have vaccinated staff and require guests to be vaccinated on their upcoming July cruises from the Bahamas and elsewhere, but the ships they are planning for those sailings are on the small side (compared to their mega Oasis-class ships). I'm sure just as they are sailing with a limited percent of guests, the crew will be limited in size as well. (Has anyone seen where the crew sleeps, eats, etc.? Tiny. Social distancing is impossible, and it's in the bowels of the ship.) I don't believe the U.S. is currently allowing any foreign nationals to receive vaccinations, and foreign nationals make up the bulk of cruise staff. Add to that the lack of availability in other parts of the world, etc. Vaccinating 1,500 crew per ship (or more for the megaships) may be a daunting task?

I am hopeful that such voyages will be successful and provide a proof of concept that can be applied to more sailings and bringing cruises back to the U.S. The sheer size of the cruise ships makes it unrealistic to operate in many other places. Few places have the infrastructure to even port some of the cruise ships, much less provide for the number of guests embarking and debarking. The cruise industry has invested millions of dollars in the ports in Florida (and elsewhere of course).

 

[Bob Harlem]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will soon be issuing new guidelines for cruising's restart, Miami-Dade Mayor Daniella Levine Cava said Thursday after a call with CDC officials.

 

[MaryJaneP]

If there aren't any "CDC technical instructions" issued yet, how can anybody be in violation or not have followed something that does not yet exist?

"as may be required by CDC technical instructions or orders."

If nothing has been offered, how can you predict whether to do or not do something?

It's like disciplining someone for not doing what you thought, rather than when they do something you have specifically told them not to or if they do not do something that you have specifically told them to do.

Something, beyond nothing, needs to be used as the yardstick. If there is no yardstick, test cruise away.

 

[MaryJaneP]

Honest question here. How are cruise lines going to get their crew vaccinated?

Maybe they should group all the cruiseline workers in with the other people deemed essential. Also, maybe the CDC could add a category 1Dcl. It seems as though you would have to ignore many are non-residents to accomplish this.

 

[nickys]

Maybe they should group all the cruiseline workers in with the other people deemed essential. Also, maybe the CDC could add a category 1Dcl. It seems as though you would have to ignore many are non-residents to accomplish this.

In the U.K. you are specifically called up for vaccination, based on GP surgery lists. Only if you’re not registered with a doctor can you contact them directly, and I’ve no doubt you’d be jumping through hoops to get yourself added to the database.

And the U.K. have just completely banned anyone travelling from one area where I believe many crew members come from (unless U.K. or RoI citizens or have residency rights). That applies to the previous 10 or 14 days, so the crew will need to fly into somewhere else and then quarantine there first.

Plus the U.K. government are currently split over vaccine passports. The earliest those will happen, if at all, is when all adults have been offered their first jab. So cruise lines insisting on proof of vaccination will be struggling for passengers, since they’re for U.K. citizens only.

Not sure the test cruises in U.K. waters by DCL and other companies will actually be happening. Things seem to be conspiring against them at the moment.