First the napkins, now the cups?

[heatherkatheleen]

At first when I read this discussion my brain was screaming "I miss the Mickey butter! It was the best part of my meal!" and "I miss the Disney soaps and shampoos in my room... Now I have this silly H2o brand with a faint Mickey outline on it!" and "All cups and napkins should be themed... It's Disney World! They can afford it!" Then, naturally, this whole idea of change sat with me and I realized my initial reaction to this discussion was largely caused by my having grown up vacationing in WDW. I have been every year since I was born and I remember so many of those small details. To put it plainly, I don't want Disney to change. Change is frightening for most people, right? Especially us fans who pride ourselves on having been once a year every year of our lives and being able to spell supercalifragelisticexpialidocious at the drop of a hat. However, I think we all need to realize things are going to progress and change whether we like it or not (isn't it a great big beautiful tomorrow?) There are benefits (like @bunnyman said: The napkin blank without the ink could be better for recycling. And the special things that are important are things like CMs getting a new ice cream because a kid dropped it.. or CMs saying welcome home upon arrival..) and as @jimogi said:"As long as i have a plate & napkin. Don't get me wrong I love seeing all the different styles through all the different holiday seasons but end of the day they are disposable items!" Now, this may be a crazy suggestion but I think for me, it's just to take a giant breather. Things are going to change and I'm not always going to like it (like the removal of Mr. Toads Wild Ride... That's one that I still get upset over from time to time) BUT however I dislike them, change and progression are a natural part of life. Let's not let some cups and napkins get us down... There are so many things to look forward to that will contribute to our experiences more than disposable items! I think there are so many things to be grateful for as a Disney fan (for me it's the incredible relationships I've developed with my family, having spent every vacation bonding there... And more than anything, the wonderful memories I have with my mom who recently passed away...) In short... there is so much more to life and so much more to see and enjoy in WDW! I personally would accept blank napkins and cups any day in the parks as I know my memories (past and future) would not be altered.

 

[Victor Kelly]

I have way more things to do in life and at WDW than worry about a blank napkin or a generic print cup. Do I care what they clean their resorts with? NO, as long as it is clean and sanitary. DO I care what brand of light bulbs they use? No. They light up, burn out and get replaced. If I worried about all the nonsense people complain about I would never sleep at night, let alone ever visit the parks again.

Give it a bloody rest already. There are more important things in life to actually worry about. Now if they start charging to go to the bathroom, shut down 90% of attractions at once in one park alone, and raise the per day price to $200, then yes I will complain as loud as everyone else, vote with my wallet and not return.

 

[bunnyman]

I have way more things to do in life and at WDW than worry about a blank napkin or a generic print cup. Do I care what they clean their resorts with? NO, as long as it is clean and sanitary. DO I care what brand of light bulbs they use? No. They light up, burn out and get replaced. If I worried about all the nonsense people complain about I would never sleep at night, let alone ever visit the parks again.

Give it a bloody rest already. There are more important things in life to actually worry about. Now if they start charging to go to the bathroom, shut down 90% of attractions at once in one park alone, and raise the per day price to $200, then yes I will complain as loud as everyone else, vote with my wallet and not return.

Amen!

 

[Clever Name]

What does it matter Walt was allowed to make money. He had a business to run and all businesses need capital. He found a balance providing an excellent product for a value. Something that is not happening now. He may have been holding on to the money as a means to an end. No one can ask him, so why judge when we never can't get an answer.

Yes indeed Walt was allowed to make money and there is not a thing wrong with making and saving money. Greed is good. Too many people pass off the idea that money was just a means to and end for Walt. That was not true and his actions prove his intent. He wanted his family to be rich and he did a great job of making sure they had more than enough money! There is nothing wrong with making money, but he engaged in deceptive business practices to make a lot of that money at the expense of the shareholders. Had he not settled the WED Enterprises fiasco, he would have been sued by the shareholders and most likely lost his fortune in the process.

In short, Walt was every bit as greedy as is the current company. Also, Walt only owned about 14% of the company stock when he died.

 

[ParentsOf4]

The problem with that quote is that it doesn't reflect the truth of the matter. When Walt Disney died in 1966, his personal estate was worth about 5 billion dollars. That was a very big pile of money. Walt looked for every opportunity to make huge sums of money for himself. His personal ownership of the Tiki Room, Railroad and Monorail in DL are good examples. Also, his personal ownership of WED Enterprises and keeping it a secret from the shareholders is another good example of his deceptive money practices.

Walt Disney was a smart businessman and certainly wanted to make money. As you imply, his strong desire to retain personal ownership of WED led to some conflicts of interest that he and Roy fought over. It's also true that during the last few years of his life, Walt wanted to enjoy the fruits of his labor, having spent a lifetime creating. Some of his last thoughts concerned "The Florida Project" while Walt's will gave away about half of his personal wealth towards a charitable foundation for the arts, that's how much Walt was focused on trying to build and create, a philosophy completely consistent with the quote I provided.

I don't see how Walt could have been worth $5B in 1966. I think even Howard Hughes was worth "only" $1.5B when he died in 1976, about $6B adjusted for inflation. I was only a teenager at the time but remember everyone talking about Hughes as the richest man in the country. TWDC was considerably smaller than Howard Hughes' empire.

I'll need to double-check but recall Walt's estate being valued at about $35M at the time of his death, about $250M adjusted for inflation, an amount he accumulated over 45 years of business. (That might be the combined family worth, not just Walt's.) Whatever his worth, I don't begrudge Walt a single penny, him having created and grown the company almost single-handedly, taking numerous financial risks along the way. TWDC, DL, WDW, and the dozens of movies we love today would not exist without Walt.

For some perspective, Bob Iger's total compensation for just the last 5 years is over $150M.

 

[M.rudolf]

Yes indeed Walt was allowed to make money and there is not a thing wrong with making and saving money. Greed is good. Too many people pass off the idea that money was just a means to and end for Walt. That was not true and his actions prove his intent. He wanted his family to be rich and he did a great job of making sure they had more than enough money! There is nothing wrong with making money, but he engaged in deceptive business practices to make a lot of that money at the expense of the shareholders. Had he not settled the WED Enterprises fiasco, he would have been sued by the shareholders and most likely lost his fortune in the process.

In short, Walt was every bit as greedy as is the current company. Also, Walt only owned about 14% of the company stock when he died.

How does anyone know what practices Walt participated in. Your making claims with no evidence or proof. Do you believe everything written on the Internet. Who cares if Walt was greedy he gave a great value for the dollar. Do I subscribe to the Walt was without any wrong doing, no but I also won't make allegations against a man who has been dead for close to 50 years. The state of Disney is not better now it's worse. I don't have to gloss over any facts to realize with Walt the good outweighed the bad about a billion to one. I also see that when Walt was here we had better films nonhomegenized product. If you think Disney is in better shape today that's your opinion. But if I had too choose between Walt Disney,Roy Disney and the majority of CEO that have not only run Disney but most other companies. I'd choose Walt and Roy. They had vision and a dream, I think that is whats essentially lacking today. I don't care how much money Walt died with or how much stock he had. What I do care about is the things he left us with. The ability to connect with a child and an adult, the dream for a better tomorrow and the place where everyone could go,rich or poor, to connect with their children and their inner child. If you ask me what business is it of anyone how much Walt did or didn't have money wise. There used to be a time when that was an impolite question to ask. If the above statement about Walts personal estate was true, it's not, then I say he got shortchanged

 

[wdisney9000]

I have way more things to do in life and at WDW than worry about a blank napkin or a generic print cup. Do I care what they clean their resorts with? NO, as long as it is clean and sanitary. DO I care what brand of light bulbs they use? No. They light up, burn out and get replaced. If I worried about all the nonsense people complain about I would never sleep at night, let alone ever visit the parks again.

Give it a bloody rest already. There are more important things in life to actually worry about. Now if they start charging to go to the bathroom, shut down 90% of attractions at once in one park alone, and raise the per day price to $200, then yes I will complain as loud as everyone else, vote with my wallet and not return.

Your confusing complaints with concerns. Disney set the bar very high over the years and by doing so they have become the most travelled to destination on the planet.
Small cutbacks here and there are acceptable, but now they are on a VERY slippery slope. The current executive administration are not the ones responsible for WDW's success. Their task is to protect and improve the legacy they are in charge of. The cups and napkins are just the latest in a long line of minor cutbacks that are slowly turning WDW into Six Flags. What you call complaints, I call concerns. And if someone doesn't express their concern now, then yes, eventually they probly will charge for the bathroom and raise admission prices.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

"I've always been bored with just making money. I've wanted to do things, I wanted to build things. Get something going. People look at me in different ways. Some of them say, 'The guy has no regard for money.' That is not true. I have had regard for money. But I'm not like some people who worship money as something you've got to have piled up in a big pile somewhere. I've only thought of money in one way, and that is to do something with it, you see? I don't think there is a thing that I own that I will ever get the benefit of, except through doing things with it."

The problem with that quote is that it doesn't reflect the truth of the matter. When Walt Disney died in 1966, his personal estate was worth about 5 billion dollars. That was a very big pile of money. Walt looked for every opportunity to make huge sums of money for himself. His personal ownership of the Tiki Room, Railroad and Monorail in DL are good examples. Also, his personal ownership of WED Enterprises and keeping it a secret from the shareholders is another good example of his deceptive money practices.

"I've only thought of money in one way, and that is to do something with it, you see?"
If you say Walt was worth 5 billion around the time of his death, I say what mutli-billion dollar project was Walt planning around the time of his death?


(Side note: I've never seen a cost estimate for what the real EPCOT would have cost, but since the theme park cost $800M, I don't think "multi-billion" is out of line for the whole city with underground roads for trucks, multiple peoplemover lines, etc.)

 

[captainkidd]

I have way more things to do in life and at WDW than worry about a blank napkin or a generic print cup. Do I care what they clean their resorts with? NO, as long as it is clean and sanitary. DO I care what brand of light bulbs they use? No. They light up, burn out and get replaced. If I worried about all the nonsense people complain about I would never sleep at night, let alone ever visit the parks again.

Give it a bloody rest already. There are more important things in life to actually worry about. Now if they start charging to go to the bathroom, shut down 90% of attractions at once in one park alone, and raise the per day price to $200, then yes I will complain as loud as everyone else, vote with my wallet and not return.

Yet you have time to come on this message board and belittle those that have concerns about it?

These posts are getting ridiculous. I really wish there was some way to make people read the entire thread before posting. No one is saying their Disney trip is ruined because of this. This is a Disney message forum, made up of mostly die-hard Disney fans. The things that concern the die-hard fans are obviously going to be more specific than those that concern the non die-hard fans. There's a new Superman movie coming out next year. The costume is completely different. You should read the debates raging on Superman web forums. Are there more important things in life to worry about. Duh, of course. But people have their passions. Who are you to tell them to "give it a bloody rest"?

 

[unkadug]

I have way more things to do in life and at WDW than worry about a blank napkin or a generic print cup. Do I care what they clean their resorts with? NO, as long as it is clean and sanitary. DO I care what brand of light bulbs they use? No. They light up, burn out and get replaced. If I worried about all the nonsense people complain about I would never sleep at night, let alone ever visit the parks again.

Give it a bloody rest already. There are more important things in life to actually worry about. Now if they start charging to go to the bathroom, shut down 90% of attractions at once in one park alone, and raise the per day price to $200, then yes I will complain as loud as everyone else, vote with my wallet and not return.

See...that's the problem too....they do not get replaced!

Just look at the Main Street train station and the Grand Floridian at night if you don't believe me.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Yet you have time to come on this message board and belittle those that have concerns about it?

These posts are getting ridiculous. I really wish there was some way to make people read the entire thread before posting. No one is saying their Disney trip is ruined because of this. This is a Disney message forum, made up of mostly die-hard Disney fans. The things that concern the die-hard fans are obviously going to be more specific than those that concern the non die-hard fans. There's a new Superman movie coming out next year. The costume is completely different. You should read the debates raging on Superman web forums. Are there more important things in life to worry about. Duh, of course. But people have their passions. Who are you to tell them to "give it a bloody rest"?

This thread would have been dead days ago except for the new participants who join in to post messages along the lines of "I don't care about the cups or napkins." We should be thankful to these people since they've managed to keep the thread alive.

P.S. I still believe the cups are coming back!

 

[unkadug]

Yet you have time to come on this message board and belittle those that have concerns about it?

These posts are getting ridiculous. I really wish there was some way to make people read the entire thread before posting. No one is saying their Disney trip is ruined because of this. This is a Disney message forum, made up of mostly die-hard Disney fans. The things that concern the die-hard fans are obviously going to be more specific than those that concern the non die-hard fans. There's a new Superman movie coming out next year. The costume is completely different. You should read the debates raging on Superman web forums. Are there more important things in life to worry about. Duh, of course. But people have their passions. Who are you to tell them to "give it a bloody rest"?

That could be said of EVERY thread.

You will always have those idiots who say I don't have time to read this thread, but...

Well, if you don't have time to read the thread, then we shouldn't take the time to read their reply.

 

[Thurp]

Since the whole "Disney Parks" thing is still in effect, do we know what's going on at DL? Are their cups and napkins also plain and generic? Or is this just a WDW thing?

 

[asianway]

Since the whole "Disney Parks" thing is still in effect, do we know what's going on at DL? Are their cups and napkins also plain and generic? Or is this just a WDW thing?

DL cups are still red with white food items, but I'm not sure if they ever change them out for Halloween like WDW does

 

[TowerOfTerror]

Update no new design but Halloween cups roll out next week. Red and white one's will be back in effect after the Halloween ones are done.

 

[tomman710]

I've been absent from this thread for a few days, if you would (and really you have no choice) indulge a few points/thoughts I'd like to bring out.

1. To those who are saying (and this is not directed at one person nor meant to be derogatory), and I am paraphrasing, "get over it, it's just napkins" ... I would make two comments;

A) Please read the entire thread and not just the title or skim because the vast majority of people that are offering criticism about the napkins/cups understand they are just napkins, and in most cases don't care about the napkins themselves, but are talking about them as a sum of a whole and how this, albeit small, is another piece of evidence to throw in the declining by degrees pile. So if you'd read the entire thread your comment becomes irrelevant or redundant and can only come off as antagonistic.

Additionally, my personal contention is to cut every thing you want as long as that savings is used to subsidize additions, improvements, or overall guest satisfaction. What I do not agree with is cutting for the sake of cutting (or to further inflate already inflated bonuses). I think the napkins adds something and it's cool that everything is Disneyfied but ultimately I could care less if they cut the napkins to use the money elsewhere. For example: a year or two of napkins savings should be more than enough to say paint Peter Pan, right?

In short: CUT WHATEVER BUT USE THE MONEY ON THE PARKS NOT to increase GP margin goals thereby inflating TDO and indirectly Iggy's bonuses (and don't sell us that cutting costs are necessary for operating budgets because we aren't idiots, we see your numbers.)

B) And even if people DO care only about the napkins or collect them, isn't that their right to like what they want to like? While I could care less about the napkins, some people seem to like them, who are we to say they or their children are stupid for liking/collecting them?

2. In regards to this thread again ... look ... Disney did this to themselves. Yes, some guests/tourists have an overboard sense of entitlement but I do not think it's entitlement to expect things you've always received. For example the EMH, guests who have always booked rooms on property have had EMH or some form for quite a while. To me, that's a reasonable expectation to have, so if that were to be abolished totally I don't think fans would be acting entitled but actually be within their rights to say, "Hey what happened?"

The same goes for the little details, Disney did this, they created this and by extension created us by having all encompassing fully engrossing experiences. Because of years and years of setting the standard so high, when they decide to lower the bar we notice ... and it's within our rights as customers to voice our disapproval.

In my business I have to EARN my customers on a regular basis, through sales, constant revamping ... I'd love to have customers like Disney has that are mostly loyal no matter how I treat them or diminish their product. Even I, who is freely criticizing the diminishing product still go numerous times through out the year (although if I didn't have family in FL, an office in FL, and didn't have an annual pass that might be different).

3. What about voicing our disapproval? Should we just not go, as has been suggested? Well, that's a tough one to throw out there but let's see what I got ... first off and big picture how many people not going will get their attention? How many people did Potter pull away and they still haven't greenlit anything substantial (no FLE is not the answer)? (And no by the experts saying TDO realizes there is a problem is not enough, I want to see action ... and to further digress the fact that they just now realize there is a problem is so incredibly ridiculous.) So will one family not going make a difference? No. Will 12? Will 100?

TDO has already proven they care nothing about what fans/customers want and are very slow to react to decline in attendance ... so what number will really impact them? It would have to be such a massive organized movement that can only be done on a message board like this but the problem is we are split even on here in about four different ways and there are too many people willing to accept whatever Disney gives them that our "movement" will fall somewhere between no impact and nothing. So in the big picture that's a nonsensical idea to think "not going" will suddenly send a message. In reality, the best chance we have is the imposters on here reporting something back to management that might actually get read before being filed under "Don't Care". But at least we've been heard ...

What about if you don't like it don't go, don't spend your money? Well, that's tough too because while it's certainly declining, it's still one of the best travel destinations, especially for families. I love Paris, Florence, Barcelona, and Crete ... but I hate taking a 1 and 3 year old there. We go to NYC and LA and other destinations throughout the year but WDW is still a great place.

I'd illustrate it this way ... in past years after a WDW trip you may call up all your friends immediately and say, "wow, you HAVE to go!" Now ... after a WDW trip, if you are hanging out with your friends weeks later and someone mentions, "hey, didn't you go to WDW?" you might say, "Yes, it was great! We had a great time." See the difference? It's still very good if not great but it used to be something more, something you couldn't wait to talk about, something you wanted to make everyone experience.

Maybe it's silly criticizing something that is still very good or great but the problem is we are the ones who have seen it throughout the years and we know it can be more. It's almost like your favorite baseball team who started the season like 40-15 then all of a sudden go in a slump and look up and all of a sudden are 45-40 ... you know they have the talent to be better but they got complacent. So where do they go now, do they kick it back into gear and make a push for the pennant or are they so far in a rut, have they dug a hole that they can't get out of?

The problem is compounded because, while yes its just napkins, cups, LoW, EMH, or whatever ... all these declining by degrees are working with all the additions at Universal. Universal would have been closing the gap anyway but what infuriates us is that TDO is helping them close the gap by working it in the other direction, so while Universal moves up, Disney moves down. Hence, gap smaller.

Yes, its just napkins or just cups or just EMH or just Splash or just LoW or just whatever ... but we as customers have the right to say "ok, whats the point?" I don't think it's fair for anyone to say it's stupid to ask that question or criticize us for holding them to the standard that Disney themselves set.

I do not mean to prolong the discussion these are meant as more self reflective questions but ...

We can see the cost cutting tactics have not been reinvested into the parks (yet) and we know GP margin affects management bonus ... therefore if you are OK with the napkins, cups, or whatever then by extension are you OK with TDO not investing into the parks and padding their bonuses? Is that OK? Are you OK with taking away and not giving back (in any form)?

That's why the majority of people are upset about the napkins, its not the napkins, its that they represent further deviation from the standard, further taking away without any thought of giving back.

 

[The MaD Hatter]

I visited MK and Epcot this past weekend. From my observation, all of the large-sized and child-sized soda cups were the red/white themed versions, while the regular size were the un-themed Coca Cola cups. The napkins were all still plain tan/brown.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I sent the following to WDW:

We are regular WDW guests and frequently dine onsite. My daughters like the printed patterns on the paper cups and napkins and sometimes I ask a Cast Member for extra unused cups or napkins to take home with us. Will Cast Members get in trouble if they give me extra cups or napkins?

And received the following reply:

Our Cast Members are aware of what they are permitted to give to our guests so if they are unable to do so they will tell you. However, we [they?] are aware that they may not give a large amount to anyone.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I was reading the Disney 1984 annual report (I need to get a life) and was amazed that it started with the following two quotes:

One of the best examples of service through people is Walt Disney Productions . . . . How Disney looks upon people, internally and externally, handles them, communicates with them, rewards them, is in my view the basic foundation upon which its five decades of success stand.

- Peters and Waterman, In Search of Excellence

And:

In Search of Excellence didn't simplify enough! In the private or public sector, in big business or small, we observe that there are only two ways to create and sustain superior performance over the long haul. First, take exceptional care of your customers via superior service and superior quality. Secondly, constantly innovate. That's it. There are no alternatives in achieving long-term superior performance. Financial control is vital but one does not sell financial control.

- Peters and Austin, A Passion for Excellence

TWDC management in 1984 "got it". Why doesn't TWDC management in 2012?

 

[heatherkatheleen]

I was reading the Disney 1984 annual report (I need to get a life) and was amazed that it started with the following two quotes:

And:

TWDC management in 1984 "got it". Why doesn't TWDC management in 2012?

That's really interesting... You don't not have a life! You were just reading about something that interests you . I guess 2012 just isn't the same as 1984. Though I think there are bigger issues to be concerned about, and things regarding the way the parks currently are that upset me more (maybe some restoration in Splash Mountain? Lol) I understand the concern that these ever changing (seemingly lowering) standards make guests wonder what other parts of the specialized Disney experience TWDC might 'cut out' in the next 28 years.