finger scan controversy?

[typhoonguy]

And could everyone please stop bagging on the ACLU, while you may not agree with them on all their policies, you have to remember that they're fighting for the rights of all Americans, regardless of whether they agree with them or not, and if they budged a tiny bit on a single issue, it would compromise their entire mission.

I think everyone needs to watch the "i'm a little bit country" episode of South Park. If you've seen it, you know exactly how relivent to this conversation it is. If not, go watch it.

However I side with Disney on this one, and have to disagree with the article above. Unlike a JPEG image stored on a hard drive, the process used by Disney cannot be reversed back into an image, since no 'image' is actually taken in the first place. It's odd that so many people that have absolutely no connection to the software used are so incredibly aware of how it works...

 

[mousermerf]

Simple example..

Walk into a room of people. Count the number of people.

Walk out.

How many people? That's a numerical value assigned to the room that you measured and counted - and wow, saved. You can even retrieve it and compared it.

Now, how many of those people were wearing blue shirts?

I didn't ask you to do that, so you don't know. That's pretty much how the thingy works. It looks for what it thinks are identifiable structures and then measures and creates some number based on you - your biometric - then stores that number based on your ticket number. It does not store any sort of finger-photo or anything. Otherwise, we'd know how many blue shirts

 

[unkadug]

Great analogy merf, thanks for the clarification for the more paranoid amonst us.

 

[Pongo]

This may be a stupid question, but even if it DID take fingerprints, how would Uncle Sam be able to find you? If you're in the park, It would be impossible for anyone to find you and/or your ticket in such crowds. And the biometric is only attached to the ticket, not the name.

I don't know. Unless the FBI sent all the fingerprints of America's Most Wanted to WDW so that when the people walked through the turnstyle, they'd be tazed (tased) then and there

Elementary, my dear Watson.

 

[PintoColvig]

While I realize that the thread name has changed, I've come late to this party. Since so many have complained about the original title, my curiosity has gotten the best of me. I'm not wanting to start any trouble but do want to get some sleep tonight. Would someone please share with me the original title of this thread? Thanks.

 

[CoffeeJedi]

Great analogy merf

Actually, terrible analogy, look up "hash value" for how it really works.
The ONLY way Merf's analogy would be valid is if there was only one room in the ENTIRE WORLD that X number of blue shirt wearer's in it.

The idea here isn't paranoia that Disney is saving images of your prints. Law enforcement doesn't sit there looking at images of fingers anymore. The idea is that they have a hash value of YOUR fingerprint, and mathematically, that value is ONLY relevent to you. If another database, say, the NSA, stores those same kinds of hashes, then they could easily link the two and figure out exactly who you are.

Sure, if you're not breaking the law, you have "nothing to hide", but that's what countless oppressive governments throughout history have said.

I just like playing devil's advocate, and i think too many people roll over and agree with things simply because they don't like to think difficult subjects through.

 

[brkgnews]

"If Uncle Sam decides to hit Walt Disney with a subpoena because they want those records, what is Walt Disney going to do?"

He won't do anything. He's dead. Maybe he'd haunt 'em good, but other than that... nothing. And why would Walt's ghost waste his time haunting a fictional character? He has enough around the park as it is. :lol:

Now, on to the matter at hand...

I couldn't give less of a hoot if Disney does have my fingerprints. State of GA has my prints for my drivers license. If I drop my wallet, somebody has bascially everything they need to steal my identity, except for maybe my SSN (which, by the way, I probably had to write on literally thousands of forms, tests, and other paperwork in high school and college). My credit card number is stored out on Amazon, Alibris, and probably five or six other sites. And yes, in the past, I've had my credit card company call me and ask if I'd been to South Africa lately to buy $2000 worth of tropical birds. I got an immediate credit for the false purchase, and I put a fraud alert on my credit reports which had the happy side effect of stopping all those annoying preapproved offers that are so fraud-prone to begin with. So even if Mickey thinks he needs my fingerprints (which I DON'T believe they're doing) and the Feds want to subpoena them (which I DON'T believe they will) then what's the worst that can happen? They find out that I go to Disneyworld? They can look at my T-Shirts and figure out that.

 

[mousermerf]

Actually, terrible analogy, look up "hash value" for how it really works.
The ONLY way Merf's analogy would be valid is if there was only one room in the ENTIRE WORLD that X number of blue shirt wearer's in it.

The idea here isn't paranoia that Disney is saving images of your prints. Law enforcement doesn't sit there looking at images of fingers anymore. The idea is that they have a hash value of YOUR fingerprint, and mathematically, that value is ONLY relevent to you. If another database, say, the NSA, stores those same kinds of hashes, then they could easily link the two and figure out exactly who you are.

Sure, if you're not breaking the law, you have "nothing to hide", but that's what countless oppressive governments throughout history have said.

I just like playing devil's advocate, and i think too many people roll over and agree with things simply because they don't like to think difficult subjects through.

See - you're entirely wrong and mislead.

They never have an image of your finger at any point. The little computer look at your finger, sees the ridges - does not go all "CSI-Miami" - does not count hash value and draw a schmatic, nor do anything of the sort, and makes up an entirely NON-UNIQUE value that is a number roughly 1-10 (yes, they could be assigning you the name of a monorail and be just as effective in stopping ticket theft/transfer), and goes on chirping and happily admitting people.

 

[DSNYKID]

What if they cut off someones finger???

Ok... it's gross... but what if someone cuts off my finger... and then uses it to get into Disney. Sounds like fiction or some a Mission Impossible movie, but hey... This raised my curiousity. Not that Im worried that someone is going to use my finger for this, but if this technology continues, I wonder if this would be a possibility.

 

[The Mom]

Whoa! You're worried about someone being so desperate to go to WDW that he/she's willing to steal your pass AND cut off your finger? Now, that's a real WDW addict.

 

[CoffeeJedi]

...makes up an entirely NON-UNIQUE value that is a number roughly 1-10 (yes, they could be assigning you the name of a monorail and be just as effective in stopping ticket theft/transfer)...

If that seriously all it is, then i don't have a problem with it. And i would imagine that most privacy experts wouldn't either in that case.

 

[mousermerf]

They wont release what the actual number range is, but it's been mentioned that it's actually very small. It is known that the number is not unique to any individual - just different enough between people that you can't just take someone elses ticket. Like how we can tell monorails apart by their color stripe.

I will add that statistically you could steal/take/get people's passes and eventually someone's would work, and we'd have an idea of how many unique ID's there were then. You'd have to repeat the process of course.

 

[kcnole]

Why, because

• you don't want to read it or want others to read it
• you dont want others to be able to respond to it?

Just because you don't like the news doesn't mean that it should be censored.

I was upset that the title of the thread was misleading. It said Disney is breaking the law. Disney was clearly not breaking the law and as such seemed very trollish.

As to what Disney is doing, all those who are screaming about it being bad misunderstand the data that is being taken. They aren't taking enough data to reconstruct it with a NSA database. They're measuring maybe ten points on the fingerprint, running a numerical formula off of that information which comes up with a number. That number is stored with the data of your ticket.

So when you come in to use the machine, it measures those same details on everybody and checks the number created against your number on file. If they match you're admitted. Now it's possible that several people in the database will all have the same numbers. It's not a unique number, but it is one that would be hard to fake. So it's possible you could give your pass to someone and they'd get the same number, the chances are low that you'd pick someone with one of those maybe 1000 numbers without having the information about the algorithm being run, but it could happen. Disney realizes that the system isn't 100 percent foolproof, but it's good enough to cut down on rampant piracy of tickets.

As to Disney cooperating if the Federal Government subpoenad information then they'd be just as required to give it as anybody else is. There are companies that are fighting to keep data from the government, mainly ISP's, and those matters are still going through the courts, but if a court says they have to give it, then they have to give it. They're aren't some foreign diplomat with diplomatic immunity.

 

[brkgnews]

Ok... it's gross... but what if someone cuts off my finger... and then uses it to get into Disney. Sounds like fiction or some a Mission Impossible movie, but hey... This raised my curiousity. Not that Im worried that someone is going to use my finger for this, but if this technology continues, I wonder if this would be a possibility.

Funny you'd bring that up... when I was in college, we had to do a whole-hand biometric scan to get into the dining hall, the dorm, and the student gym. At the campus TV station, we always said we were going to make a short film for the variety show that depicted someone chopping off a roommate's hand just to get into the dining hall for free.

We were weird in college.

And still are. :lookaroun

 

[unkadug]

Funny you'd bring that up... when I was in college, we had to do a whole-hand biometric scan to get into the dining hall, the dorm, and the student gym. At the campus TV station, we always said we were going to make a short film for the variety show that depicted someone chopping off a roommate's hand just to get into the dining hall for free.

We were weird in college.

And still are. :lookaroun

What school was that? I want to give it a wide bearth! :lol:

 

[fargosteve]

I think not being able to share tickets is a raw deal.

 

[unkadug]

I think not being able to share tickets is a raw deal.

Please explain your outburst. :lol:

 

[fargosteve]

:wave: I'd be glad to. We've been to WDW many times over the last 25 years, and I shudder to think of all the $ we've spent, but it's been worth it. I guess I just look back to when you could share your multi-day tickets with friends and family, and to me the whole finger scan so you can't share or sell the tickets that you have already paid for is greedy.
Don't go off all Disney can do-no-wrong on me please. We all love going there, but face it, it is getting very spendy $$$$$

 

[fargosteve]

By the way, the picture of me and my wife was taken at EPCOT at the Rose and Crown the first time we went in 1982. We don't look any older now though At least I hope we don't!!

 

[unkadug]

The thing is though, how many people have you ever seen them turn away at the gate because there biometrics didn't work. They end up waving them through.

It's just like locks were made to keep honest people honest.