FastPass+ open to all guests including offsite beginning next week at Disney's Animal Kingdom

[hpyhnt 1000]

While I completely agree with you, ADRs are also already responsible for locking people into specific parks months in advance. And now that there is a hefty day-of cancellation fee, people are literally locked in at least after midnight. FP+ seems like a natural extension of this.

As with ADRs, the whole system would be so much more customer friendly if Disney simply held back 50% of the capacity. Allow people who want to plan to do so, but also allow for same day changes. Especially at a place that is designed for families, it is patently unreasonable to (1) make people plan these minute details months in advance and then (2) make the system inflexible to last minute adjustments that are inevitable with young children.

The ADR system suffers from the same problem that FP+ has: lack of options. Just as Epcot, DHS and AK lack enough attractions to really make FP+ work well, with table service dining its MK, DHS and AK that are sorely lacking in places to eat.

When you combine the number of table service restaurants in MK, DHS and AK, it totals about 15 restaurants (MK = 6, DHS = 6, and AK = 3 (I'm being generous and counting Rainforest Cafe as in park table service)). Consider that these parks have seen their yearly attendance figures grow significantly in the last ten years, but have added next to no table service restaurants during that time. In fact, I think the only two additions have been Yak and Yeti in AK and Be Our Guest in MK; you could technically consider the conversion of Tusker House another one, but as that was already counter service, it isn't really an addition.

But this overall dearth of new restaurant additions in three of the four parks is put into greater perspective when you consider that Epcot alone now has 16 table service locations, far surpassing its sister parks. The lack of good table service in the other three parks means that tables in MK, DHS and AK are quickly filled to capacity on a daily basis, which pushes everyone into Epcot. While this does help to bring people into Epcot, it also clogs up the restaurants there and results in a situation where it can be impossible to have a sit-down dinner in any park at all.

@ParentsOf4 has demonstrated in previous posts how WDW (in three of its parks) has too few attractions and, separately, how the resort as a whole is bursting at the seams with hotel rooms compared to the 70s and 80s. But the same is true with in park dining options, and its pushed the ADR system to its limit. In fact, while we all moan about the lack of new rides, a case could be made that the situation is far worse in terms of the lack of new restaurants.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Isn't there a plan to clone Soarin? No I don't mean the "blue" version in AK, but an actual doubling of the existing EPCOT attraction.

Yup, there is a plan under evaluation to add one more theater to Soarin'.

 

[GoofGoof]

The ADR system suffers from the same problem that FP+ has: lack of options. Just as Epcot, DHS and AK lack enough attractions to really make FP+ work well, with table service dining its MK, DHS and AK that are sorely lacking in places to eat.

When you combine the number of table service restaurants in MK, DHS and AK, it totals about 15 restaurants (MK = 6, DHS = 6, and AK = 3 (I'm being generous and counting Rainforest Cafe as in park table service)). Consider that these parks have seen their yearly attendance figures grow significantly in the last ten years, but have added next to no table service restaurants during that time. In fact, I think the only two additions have been Yak and Yeti in AK and Be Our Guest in MK; you could technically consider the conversion of Tusker House another one, but as that was already counter service, it isn't really an addition.

But this overall dearth of new restaurant additions in three of the four parks is put into greater perspective when you consider that Epcot alone now has 16 table service locations, far surpassing its sister parks. The lack of good table service in the other three parks means that tables in MK, DHS and AK are quickly filled to capacity on a daily basis, which pushes everyone into Epcot. While this does help to bring people into Epcot, it also clogs up the restaurants there and results in a situation where it can be impossible to have a sit-down dinner in any park at all.

@ParentsOf4 has demonstrated in previous posts how WDW (in three of its parks) has too few attractions and, separately, how the resort as a whole is bursting at the seams with hotel rooms compared to the 70s and 80s. But the same is true with in park dining options, and its pushed the ADR system to its limit. In fact, while we all moan about the lack of new rides, a case could be made that the situation is far worse in terms of the lack of new restaurants.

This is a good point. I feel that MK gets away with its lack of sit down restaurants because of the resort monorail loop and the restaurants at those hotels. If you count buffets and dinner shows they add 11 sit down restaurants to the 6 on hand at MK. Where there is a real lack of dining is AK and DHS. If the plan is to make AK a "full day" park they absolutely need to add 3 or 4 sit down options including at least 1 large capacity buffet and/or dinner show. I assume Pandora would have at least 1 large sit down restaurant. If they are going with a nighttime show on the water they could follow the EPCOT model and build a restaurant with views of the show too. It wouldn't be a bad idea to make AKL a little easier to get to from AK too. That could expand capacity for dinner.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

This is a good point. I feel that MK gets away with its lack of sit down restaurants because of the resort monorail loop and the restaurants at those hotels. If you count buffets and dinner shows they add 11 sit down restaurants to the 6 on hand at MK. Where there is a real lack of dining is AK and DHS. If the plan is to make AK a "full day" park they absolutely need to add 3 or 4 sit down options including at least 1 large capacity buffet and/or dinner show. I assume Pandora would have at least 1 large sit down restaurant. If they are going with a nighttime show on the water they could follow the EPCOT model and build a restaurant with views of the show too. It wouldn't be a bad idea to make AKL a little easier to get to from AK too. That could expand capacity for dinner.

Agreed, the MK resorts have allowed MK to skate by. And in some regard, restaurants at the other hotels, The Boardwalk and Downtown Disney also help spread people around. But I wager that most infrequent or first time visitors don't even know about these restaurants, and even if they did, would prefer to eat inside the parks for simplicity's sake. And even in these locations, there's been little in the way of new dining.

And the wild card in all this is the effect of the Disney Dining Plan, which has helped to push more people each night into table service restaurants.

So in summary, today's WDW hosts more people than ever, and a greater proportion of those people now eat at at least one table service restaurant compared to years past. Yet at the same time, WDW has made minimal investments in new dining establishments, resulting in more and more guests fighting for the same number of tables. Just like more people now fight over the same number of rides.

 

[GoofGoof]

Agreed, the MK resorts have allowed MK to skate by. And in some regard, restaurants at the other hotels, The Boardwalk and Downtown Disney also help spread people around. But I wager that most infrequent or first time visitors don't even know about these restaurants, and even if they did, would prefer to eat inside the parks for simplicity's sake. And even in these locations, there's been little in the way of new dining.

And the wild card in all this is the effect of the Disney Dining Plan, which has helped to push more people each night into table service restaurants.

So in summary, today's WDW hosts more people than ever, and a greater proportion of those people now eat at at least one table service restaurant compared to years past. Yet at the same time, WDW has made minimal investments in new dining establishments, resulting in more and more guests fighting for the same number of tables.

Disney Dining Plan has made it hard to just walk in to even a place like Kona Cafe which should in theory always have capacity for resort guests. The success of BOG may prompt WDW to seriously consider new sit down restaurants. That place is a gold mine.

 

[doctornick]

Disney Dining Plan has made it hard to just walk in to even a place like Kona Cafe which should in theory always have capacity for resort guests. The success of BOG may prompt WDW to seriously consider new sit down restaurants. That place is a gold mine.

At a minimum, I would think that BOG's success should mean they should be building -- or have already started building -- a Mos Eisley Cantina replica in DHS. It would succeed due to the same factors that BOG has and be a gold mine.

Agreed, the MK resorts have allowed MK to skate by. And in some regard, restaurants at the other hotels, The Boardwalk and Downtown Disney also help spread people around.

It's ironic that the Boardwalk area -- which is a great overflow for guests -- is located outside the one park area that doesn't need it (World Showcase). Put the Boardwalk right outside the gates of DAK or DHS and I would imagine that it would get higher usage from people looking for different offerings.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to make AKL a little easier to get to from AK too. That could expand capacity for dinner.

Yeah, I've suggested before that they could have a combined transport/attraction concept with a train/monorail/whatever between DAK and AKL. Put some animal enclosures along the route so you "see things" and have a nice spiel on the ride and it would be kind of like the Monorail at DL. But making a quicker/easier/more scenic connection -- which would be listed as an attraction on DAK park maps -- you would increase the number of people going to AKL for food as an extension of DAK. The transport might also encourage sales of any remaining DVC units at AKL and increase demand for the hotel.

Seems to me that it would be an easy way to increase the sit down offerings at DAK. It doesn't seem like the restaurants at AKL ever fill up totally so I think they have bookings to spare.

 

[GoofGoof]

At a minimum, I would think that BOG's success should mean they should be building -- or have already started building -- a Mos Eisley Cantina replica in DHS. It would succeed due to the same factors that BOG has and be a gold mine.



It's ironic that the Boardwalk area -- which is a great overflow for guests -- is located outside the one park area that doesn't need it (World Showcase). Put the Boardwalk right outside the gates of DAK or DHS and I would imagine that it would get higher usage from people looking for different offerings.



Yeah, I've suggested before that they could have a combined transport/attraction concept with a train/monorail/whatever between DAK and AKL. Put some animal enclosures along the route so you "see things" and have a nice spiel on the ride and it would be kind of like the Monorail at DL. But making a quicker/easier/more scenic connection -- which would be listed as an attraction on DAK park maps -- you would increase the number of people going to AKL for food as an extension of DAK. The transport might also encourage sales of any remaining DVC units at AKL and increase demand for the hotel.

Seems to me that it would be an easy way to increase the sit down offerings at DAK. It doesn't seem like the restaurants at AKL ever fill up totally so I think they have bookings to spare.

The Cantina is a no brainer. So much so I'm surprised they a haven't done it already even without a StarWarsLand expansion. AK has 2 pretty solid restaurants but I agree they need a lure to get people to venture there. The monorail to Chef Mickeys or OHana is basically like another ride.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I don’t get how the legacy Fastpasses helped with spontaneity. You have to either run to the attraction you want or happen to be in the area to get one and then return during the 1 hour window. You can’t choose the one hour window or change it so you are set on when you have to use it. If you don’t like the return time, do you wait around until a later return, probably not so you just skip it or come back later. So I don’t see how FP+ makes this more difficult.

That's where Fastpass+ could help. If the only change with Fastpass+ was digitizing it and helping guest avoid backtracking throughout the park that would be a time savings. Again, I shine the @lentesta bat signal. If backtracking could be avoided how much of a time savings would that be?

 

[RSoxNo1]

FP+ solves nothing. It simply reallocates capacity from offsite guests to onsite guests in order to encourage offsite guests to pay Disney's high resort prices and stay onsite.

WDW's problem is that it has 28,000 onsite rooms, compared to 2,400 at Universal and 2,500 at DLR.

WDW needs to stop building hotels & DVC and start building more rides!

If only Disney had another location where they overbuilt hotel rooms relative to the capacity of the nearby park, then they could have learned from that mistake... Unrelated, when are they cloning Crush's Coaster?

 

[RSoxNo1]

The Cantina is a no brainer. So much so I'm surprised they a haven't done it already even without a StarWarsLand expansion. AK has 2 pretty solid restaurants but I agree they need a lure to get people to venture there. The monorail to Chef Mickeys or OHana is basically like another ride.

The Cantina should have been built 20 years ago.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Find any pixie dust?

I'm assuming it got snorted, as is customary.

 

[msteel]

Not really relevant to the discussion but if any of you want to see what the inside of my magic band looks like here you go. Not a great pic or anything but its interesting.

I'm a little surprised it isn't potted. It looks like the guts could be easily transplanted into another form factor. Can you identify any of the main components?

 

[Tom Morrow]

Let's use the most egregious example: TSM. (The numbers are about the same for Soarin'.)

Pre-FP+ on most days when crowd levels were modestly up (not at peak, just not light), FP distribution for TSM typically ran out mid-morning, before lunch time.

Are you suggesting that with FP+, a FP+ selection for TSM now will be available "Even in the afternoon of the same day"?

I don't know the numbers, but I do know and have witnessed what people have been able to book. Even now, people have been able to get rides like Test Track, Soarin' and TSMM the same day, and I've even seen TSMM available in the afternoon. I'm not sure how this is possible, but it seems to me that the system reserves some "same day" Fastpasses for the afternoon, so they aren't all taken in the morning. You will notice that it suggests later times for popular attractions if they are booked earlier in the day, but you then have the option to move them earlier if available. Another thing to consider is that unlike Legacy Fastpass, where once they're gone for the day, that's it, Fastpass+ availability is live and constantly changing, so availability can open up throughout the day based on people changing their selections, expected crowds, and whatever else they take into consideration.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I don't know the numbers, but I do know and have witnessed what people have been able to book. Even now, people have been able to get rides like Test Track, Soarin' and TSMM the same day, and I've even seen TSMM available in the afternoon. I'm not sure how this is possible, but it seems to me that the system reserves some "same day" Fastpasses for the afternoon, so they aren't all taken in the morning. You will notice that it suggests later times for popular attractions if they are booked earlier in the day, but you then have the option to move them earlier if available. Another thing to consider is that unlike Legacy Fastpass, where once they're gone for the day, that's it, Fastpass+ availability is live and constantly changing, so availability can open up throughout the day based on people changing their selections, expected crowds, and whatever else they take into consideration.

Please recall that crowd levels are modest in early to mid December.

Also recall that FP+ tiering is in effect. Onsite guests have to choose between popular attractions.

Neither was the case Thanksgiving week.

Thanksgiving week exposed FP+ weaknesses.

Really though, these are WDW's ride capacity problems.

It's rather incredible that WDW cannot offer its onsite guests 3 good FP+ selections while, at Universal, onsite guests get unlimited Express Pass all day long.

In a nutshell, that's WDW's capacity problem.

Epcot, DHS, and DAK need more rides.

 

[JerseyDad]

Please recall that crowd levels are modest in early to mid December.

Also recall that FP+ tiering is in effect. Onsite guests have to choose between popular attractions.

Neither was the case Thanksgiving week.

Thanksgiving week exposed FP+ weaknesses.

Really though, these are WDW's ride capacity problems.

It's rather incredible that WDW cannot offer its onsite guests 3 good FP+ selections while, at Universal, onsite guests get unlimited Express Pass all day long.

In a nutshell, that's WDW's capacity problem.

Epcot, DHS, and DAK need more rides.

.....more ride & attractions = more expenditures (aka: money)

.....if they can have the crowds wandering around to a predetermined schedule ...while telling them that ho-hum attractions are really "upper tiered" ones ....that's what they'll do. It's a 2 billion dollar shell game ....

 

[doctornick]

It's rather incredible that WDW cannot offer its onsite guests 3 good FP+ selections while, at Universal, onsite guests get unlimited Express Pass all day long.

In a nutshell, that's WDW's capacity problem.

Epcot, DHS, and DAK need more rides.

Well, or WDW needs fewer onsite rooms.

To be fair, it isn't like either Uni park has a massive amount of rides/attractions either. More than DHS/DAK, absolutely, but in the same range as Epcot and less than MK.

 

[jdmdisney99]

Well, or WDW needs fewer onsite rooms.

To be fair, it isn't like either Uni park has a massive amount of rides/attractions either. More than DHS/DAK, absolutely, but in the same range as Epcot and less than MK.

But they are more balanced.

 

[ParentsOf4]

To be fair, it isn't like either Uni park has a massive amount of rides/attractions either. More than DHS/DAK, absolutely, but in the same range as Epcot and less than MK.

Both of Uni's parks have far more headliner rides than Epcot, DHS, or DAK.

Ask yourself a few simple questions.

Excluding MK (the "king" of Orlando theme parks), what's your favorite WDW theme park?

Now pick your 6 favorite attractions at that park that you'd like to Fast Pass.

Now, do the same with Universal.

What 6 rides would you Express Pass there?

The problem is that at Epcot, DHS, and DAK, it's difficult (at least it is for me ) to find 6 rides that would be worth getting a Fast Pass for.

At either of Uni's 2 parks, it's easy to identify 6 rides that are worth Express Passing.

That's WDW's problem. 3 of its parks simply don't have enough headliner attractions.

Recall that those who have used FP+ for shows have said that FP+ was a waste.

When you get past the shows, WDW's doesn't have enough rides to Fast Pass.

I have no problem picking out 6 rides at MK, IOA, or USF.

However, when it comes to Epcot, DHS, or DAK, I can't list 6 attractions that are worth Fast Passing.

At 3 of their parks, most visiting WDW are picking the same 3 FP+. It only works at DAK because KS and EE are extremely high capacity rides.

Again, at 3 of WDW's parks, they don't have enough good rides.

FP+ highlights a problem WDW has had for years. In fact, FP+ emphasizes it. FP+ puts up a big sign saying "because we don't have enough good attractions, we are not going to let you pick your 3 favorite."

WDW is not ready for FP+ and won't be until Epcot, DHS, and DAK get more rides.

 

[GoofGoof]

Both of Uni's parks have far more headliner rides than Epcot, DHS, or DAK.

Ask yourself a few simple questions.

Excluding MK (the "king" of Orlando theme parks), what's your favorite WDW theme park?

Now pick your 6 favorite attractions at that park that you'd like to Fast Pass.

Now, do the same with Universal.

What 6 rides would you Express Pass there?

The problem is that at Epcot, DHS, and DAK, it's difficult (at least it is for me ) to find 6 rides that would be worth getting a Fast Pass for.

At either of Uni's 2 parks, it's easy to identify 6 rides that are worth Express Passing.

That's WDW's problem. 3 of its parks simply don't have enough headliner attractions.

Recall that those who have used FP+ for shows have said that FP+ was a waste.

When you get past the shows, WDW's doesn't have enough rides to Fast Pass.

I have no problem picking out 6 rides at MK, IOA, or USF.

However, when it comes to Epcot, DHS, or DAK, I can't list 6 attractions that are worth Fast Passing.

At 3 of their parks, most visiting WDW are picking the same 3 FP+. It only works at DAK because KS and EE are extremely high capacity rides.

Again, at 3 of WDW's parks, they don't have enough good rides.

FP+ highlights a problem WDW has had for years. In fact, FP+ emphasizes it. FP+ puts up a big sign saying "because we don't have enough good attractions, we are not going to let you pick your 3 favorite."

WDW is not ready for FP+ and won't be until Epcot, DHS, and DAK get more rides.

Slightly off topic, but this is why I am a bit unsure about Avland's feature ride being a Soarin type experience. They better build it right with enough theaters to avoid the issues with Soarin at EPCOT and the boat ride better be high capacity and have some length to it (like Pirates).

Also why I'm "Luke warm" (pun intended) on the rumored speeder bike coaster being the main addition for StarWarsLand. The last thing WDW needs is low capacity rides. DHS needs a few high capacity, family friendly, time consuming experiences to replace the high capacity, family friendly, time consuming Back Lot Tour which took a few hours to do right in its prime. The last thing they need is another 2 minute roller coaster with 60 min+ waits and a height restriction.

I guess what I'm saying is they don't need to just add capacity, but they need to make it count when they do and add things that first and foremost demand FP and second have enough rider capacity to pump out large quantities of FP reservations.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Slightly off topic, but this is why I am a bit unsure about Avland's feature ride being a Soarin type experience. They better build it right with enough theaters to avoid the issues with Soarin at EPCOT and the boat ride better be high capacity and have some length to it (like Pirates).

Also why I'm "Luke warm" (pun intended) on the rumored speeder bike coaster being the main addition for StarWarsLand. The last thing WDW needs is low capacity rides. DHS needs a few high capacity, family friendly, time consuming experiences to replace the high capacity, family friendly, time consuming Back Lot Tour which took a few hours to do right in its prime. The last thing they need is another 2 minute roller coaster with 60 min+ waits and a height restriction.

I guess what I'm saying is they don't need to just add capacity, but they need to make it count when they do and add things that first and foremost demand FP and second have enough rider capacity to pump out large quantities of FP reservations.

I suspect that Avatar's simulator will be as much like Soarin' as Expedition Everest is like the Barnstormer. I'm a little bummed out that they're using a simulator, but it really doesn't sound like it's the same ride system as Soarin'