FastPass+ Most Certainly Not Coming Back As It Was

[havoc315]

If you're third in the FP line then no. But you can't (at least couldn't to that point) get a FP for every ride. So you need to balance your 10 minute wait on Splash (while you're cutting in front of 300 people) with your 50 minute wait on Thunder (while 300 cut in front of you). I think most would be okay with an average 30 minute wait spread out between both rides.

FP isn't intended for one ride. It's designed based on averages. If you want to go into a park and ride 3 rides and leave - then that's your prerogative. But there are many others that jockey for additional FP and even wait in regular lines.

Your day isn't broken up by windows. If though, you can get 10, maybe 12 rides and wait an average of 20-30 per ride, have time for a TS or quality QS, watch a parade, and do some shopping........who cares "who cut in front of you".

Which is why it’s illusory. Best case scenario, your wait is simply shifted. You save 30 minutes on 1 ride, but wait an extra 10 minutes each on the next 3 rides. So your average is unchanged — and that’s the best case scenario.

If FPs have no impact on wait standby lines, why not just give every dingle guest unlimited FPs? Ahh… Because the more FPs you give, the more it affects wait times.

 

[LittleBuford]

But going from No FP —> FP/FP+, the lines increase.

But only by a handful of minutes, not the long stretches of time that you and others are implying.

 

[LittleBuford]

So your average is unchanged — and that’s the best case scenario.

A number of us have shared far better scenarios, but those who have a different experience of FP refuse to believe us.

 

[havoc315]

But only by a handful of minutes, not the long stretches of time that you and others are implying.

Depends on the ride, the allocation of FP, time of day, etc.


If an attraction can accommodate 1500 per hour, and you give out 800 FPs per hour, and there are an additional 400 Standby per hour, the attraction will essentially be walk-on, with or without FP. Think of BATB as an example.

On the other hand—- FOP is the other extreme. Every guest at Animal Kingdom wants to do it. Even people with FP, will often queue for it, so they can ride it more than once.
So at rope drop, almost every guest queues for it. But since FPs go first, the line is indeed much longer for everyone else.

And indeed, wait times at FOP have been significantly shorter than Pre-pandemic. Posted wait time, as I write this, is 65 minutes. On a holiday weekend. 90-120+ would be a “short” holiday weekend line with FP active.

 

[havoc315]

A number of us have shared far better scenarios, but those who have a different experience of FP refuse to believe us.

The people that get far better scenarios are those that have mastered the FP system, know exactly how and what to book at 60 days, experts at pulling 4th FPs. Not the average guest.

The laws of math apply. If time is being saved in 1 spot, it’s being added somewhere else.

 

[mikejs78]

Tell me — if you’re 3rd in line, and 300 people then cut in front of you, does that increase your wait?

No because those 300 people would have been in front of you in line with no FP.

No… read it. It’s about the transition from FP to FP+ did not increase lines overall — because it reduced the lines that already had FP. But it INCREASED the lines of rides that didn’t have FP previously.
Going from FP—> FP+ did not increase lines.
But going from No FP —> FP/FP+, the lines increase.

The rides you mentioned (HM, Pirates, SE) increased around 4-9 minutes on average. Not a huge difference.

And indeed, wait times at FOP have been significantly shorter than Pre-pandemic. Posted wait time, as I write this, is 65 minutes. On a holiday weekend. 90-120+ would be a “short” holiday weekend line with FP active.

They've been limiting capacity to the parks. The FoP line is shorter because there are fewer people in the parks.

 

[mikejs78]

The laws of math apply. If time is being saved in 1 spot, it’s being added somewhere else.

Not quite. FP is managed througput. The same number of people get to ride an any given day, it's just that a large % of them are managed via FP. You keep saying "laws of math" but there's a whole science around this called queueing theory that describes all this, and a managed line allows the same throughput than an unmanaged line while making wait times far more manageable.

The ideal scenario from a pure line management perspective would be to have 100% FastPass. Then everyone would wait for a very small amount of time. But then you would need to plan every attraction, which also wouldn't be ideal. I think the 85/25 split makes sense given what they are trying to achieve.

The real issue isn't FP - FP is needed given the current state of the parks unless they limit attendance (as they have been doing since COVID) or build more capacity. As it is, there are more people in the parks than can get on any one attraction and there aren't enough attractions to make the wait times short. So FP is necessary to distribute and manage the load.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Which is why it’s illusory. Best case scenario, your wait is simply shifted. You save 30 minutes on 1 ride, but wait an extra 10 minutes each on the next 3 rides. So your average is unchanged — and that’s the best case scenario.

If FPs have no impact on wait standby lines, why not just give every dingle guest unlimited FPs? Ahh… Because the more FPs you give, the more it affects wait times.

Maybe you hang around a different crowd. Nobody I know frets about waiting a certain amount of time for a certain ride. Most look at it from the perspective of “I want to go on 10, maybe 12 rides during the day”. The introduction of FP hasn’t done anything to inhibit that You’re looking at the trees - most others are looking at the forest

 

[Goofyernmost]

Can you explain what you mean by this? How is it a waste if it gets you on a ride without having to queue?

Because by that time there usually are no crowds and a FP gains you very little.

 

[LittleBuford]

The people that get far better scenarios are those that have mastered the FP system, know exactly how and what to book at 60 days, experts at pulling 4th FPs. Not the average guest.

I normally don’t have the opportunity to book my FastPasses more than thirty days out, yet I still manage to get a good selection. Nor is it difficult for the “average” guest to secure a fourth (and a fifth, and a sixth, and so on) FastPass on the day itself. Some may choose or prefer not to, but there’s no special trick to it.

 

[LittleBuford]

Because by that time there usually are no crowds and a FP gains you very little.

That isn’t true at all. Some of the headliners have long queues till closing. Getting an evening FastPass for one of them can save you a lot of time.

 

[jinx8402]

It’s been proven again and again that FP does make lines longer. It’s a mathematical law.
Tell me — if you’re 3rd in line, and 300 people then cut in front of you, does that increase your wait?

That is disingenuous. You are trying to make a point that there were 0 people ahead of you when you entered a line then 300 fp got on the ride before you. That is not reality. Reality is you got in a 45 minute line, waited 40 of those minutes, then 300 people in fast pass get on while you are 3 people back and get on at 45 minutes.

 

[Goofyernmost]

That isn’t true at all. Some of the headliners have long queues till closing. Getting an evening FastPass for one of them can save you a lot of time.

It might depend on when you go so I'll give you that perhaps sometimes they are necessary. I'm not there everyday of the year so I can only go by when I have gone. So perhaps when you go it is worth it. I retract my statement with a addition of when one attends.

 

[havoc315]

No because those 300 people would have been in front of you in line with no FP.

No… Because now those 300 ride quickly and then get on another line!

With no FP… they would be on one line. With FP, they ride quick and then quickly get on another line.

The rides you mentioned (HM, Pirates, SE) increased around 4-9 minutes on average. Not a huge difference.

That’s average. In other words, pre-FP, it was walk-on at rope drop. Still walk-on at rope drop. But then at mid day, May be 15-20 minutes longer.

I recall pre-FP, Small World never had more than a 15 minute line aside from Christmas. And that’s what it has been lately. But with FP, 30 minute standby lines have been common

They've been limiting capacity to the parks. The FoP line is shorter because there are fewer people in the parks.

That’s not really true anymore. They have increased capacity pretty close to normal summer attendance levels. For example, for Tuesday — there is still park pass availability at Epcot and Animal Kingdom. In other words, the capacity limit is higher than the attendance demand.

Where FPs would have no effect on wait times, would be if people did FPs INSTEAD of standby.
If preFP, you did 8 attractions in 4 hours…

Then with FP, you do 8 attractions in 2 hours, and spend the remaining 2 hours at the pool, restaurant, etc. But if guests take those 2 extra hours to get into more lines — then you’re “virtually” increasing attendance. Increase attendance = increased lines.

 

[havoc315]

So

That is disingenuous. You are trying to make a point that there were 0 people ahead of you when you entered a line then 300 fp got on the ride before you. That is not reality. Reality is you got in a 45 minute line, waited 40 of those minutes, then 300 people in fast pass get on while you are 3 people back and get on at 45 minutes.

No. The reality is that about 1200 people are now cutting you on a 1500/hour ride.

It’s not all at once… it’s a steady stream. Overall effect, to increase standby lines by 50% or worse. 10 minute stand-by line becomes 15, as 2-3 people are allowed to enter before each standby. 20 minute line becomes 30. 60 minute line becomes 90.

 

[G00fyDad]

 

[LittleBuford]

In other words, the capacity limit is higher than the attendance demand.

You yourself seem to be acknowledging here that attendance is lower now than it would be at the equivalent time in a normal year. Until the numbers are back to what they were pre-pandemic, we really can’t say whether the standby queues are (significantly) shorter without FP.

 

[havoc315]

Not quite. FP is managed througput. The same number of people get to ride an any given day,

But that’s not true. More people get on the rides pee day because of FP. Rides that operated below their hourly capacity end up with lines longer than the hourly capacity.

Since the FP holder can get on another line after they use the FP.

The ideal scenario from a pure line management perspective would be to have 100% FastPass.

No… that only works if you limit the number of attractions people can do. If a ride… say FOP… can handle 15,000 people in a 10 hour day… but the demand is 30,000 people per day..

Then the “ideal” scenario would exclude half the guests. Of course, there is NO way to make a ride go over 100% capacity…. Except to open early and close late, which is what FOP does.

If you have 100% of capacity to FP.. then literally the standby line would be 12 hours long (with standby riders unable to ride until the end of the last FP window).

Thus, you could only do 100% FP if you had enough ride capacity for every guest to be on an e-ticket ride almost every minute.

Until you increase capacity, FP is just rearranging deck chairs.

Then everyone would wait for a very small amount of time. But then you would need to plan every attraction, which also wouldn't be ideal. I think the 85/25 split makes sense given what they are trying to achieve.

The real issue isn't FP - FP is needed given the current state of the parks unless they limit attendance (as they have been doing since COVID) or build more capacity. As it is, there are more people in the parks than can get on any one attraction and there aren't enough attractions to make the wait times short. So FP is necessary to distribute and manage the load.

 

[Jrb1979]

I am still fully in on a similar system to Universals. No scheduling just get in line. All that has happen is to limit it and make it cost enough to make it worthwhile

 

[jinx8402]

So


No. The reality is that about 1200 people are now cutting you on a 1500/hour ride.

It’s not all at once… it’s a steady stream. Overall effect, to increase standby lines by 50% or worse. 10 minute stand-by line becomes 15, as 2-3 people are allowed to enter before each standby. 20 minute line becomes 30. 60 minute line becomes 90.

It's not cutting. If you didn't have a fast pass and get in line when it is posted at 45 mins, then you are waiting for 45 minutes with or without the fast pass. Just that with fast pass, there are only 100 people in front of you in queue without it there are 1000. Stop equating fast pass to cutting. That is disingenuous.