FastPass+’s Possible Impact on Standby Lines

[ratherbeinwdw]

sorry to stumble in the conversation but i had to sign up and throw in my 2 cents

It seems to me that most of the hard core disney people like myself are the ones posting on how the new FP+ are going to be be terrible and I would have to partly agree.

The new system will make it harder to cheat the current fast pass system. I know of to many loop holes when it comes to the current FP system. A RFID validation system that either clears or rejects approaching FP line goers will help with rejecting the people who never were supose to be in the line in the first place.

I know of many people that, with the current system, will print three valid fast pass tickets lets say for Midway Mania. After your valid tickets are printed you can reinsert your park ticket to print out the non valid fastpass tickets that are on the exact same ticket paper. Every body goes and gets in line showing the person at the front of the line their valid ticket. Once in line the first person takes one valid ticket and puts it on top of two invalid tickets. This makes it look like three tickets but only the top is valid. The cast memeber collecting the tickets mid way though the line never checks and just assumes the three tickets were validated at the front of the line. This leaves you with 2 valid FP's. As long as you have 6 non valid tickets you can have three people visit a FP line 3 seperate times with little trouble.

More people do this than you think.

When you are down to one ticket and need to validate three people at the front of the FP line then you use same valid ticket to show the person at the front of the line for each person. This is easily done by passing the valid ticket to the next person where the FP line meets the exit line or SB line.

A RFID braclet or ticket will only allow users to be validated once making the new system harder cheat.

These cheaters are taking a chance as I don't think I've ever gone through the second cm at TSM without having my time checked. I hope they get caught. It's not fair to the ones of us who play by the rules.

 

[roodlesnouter]

Zzzzzzzzzz

Over on the uni boards they are discussing great new attractions, here we discuss queuing times for old attractions.....

I am losing the faith and I don't think pixie dust will fix it this time.

 

[ParentsOf4]

The key at other parks will be the groupings of attractions.

Take DHS. During testing, guests were limited to one FP+ from a group that included Toy Story Mania, RNR and LMA. With average daily attendance around 25,000, TSM and RNR have more than enough capacity for each guest to ride once. Using hourly capacity of 1200 and 1800 over an average 12 hour operating day, that's 36,000 riders combined.

IMHO, TSM, ToT, RnRC, and ST are DHS's marque attractions and the only attractions at DHS that should have FP. (Unless you feel no attractions should have FP.) Depending on what numbers you trust, combined capacity is around 6,500 guests per hour. (Reported capacities for some of these attractions vary wildly.) Assuming a 12-hour operating day, this equates to a daily capacity of 78,000. Not all capacity is allocated to FP. Reports vary so I'll assume a middle ground of 55%. This means there are about 43,000 FP available for these 4 attractions.

DHS averages 26,600 guests per day. On busier days, attendance will be much higher. With longer park hours, guests should be able to average 1-to-2 "good" FP+ for DHS's 4 most popular attractions. Disney will have to create a lot of "filler" FP+ (think LMA) in order to meet the "3 FP+ per person" requirement.

Let's also recognize that the Standby line for TSM can be longer than the combined Standby lines for ToT, RnRC, and ST. TSM FP+ are really "valuable".

Since I know how to game the current FP system, I know how to get a lot more than 3 FP per day at DHS. I'm sure most experienced WDW guests can do the same. Experienced WDW guests will lose as a result of FP+. Inexperienced WDW guests will gain.

Since MK has so many "good" attractions, I suspect guests will be happier with their 3 FP+ choices at MK.

 

[tracyandalex]

We are excited to try the new FP+ system. We are not early risers so hopefully this will work out well for us! my take on what will happen to standby lines is this:
The whole thing is basically a redistribution of people. Standby lines for rides such as PotC and HM will increase. The deciding factor on whether to ride for many folks will be how much they increase. We generally go to the world during off times so HM is generally a 10 - 15 min wait which is always fine with us. Now if that goes to 20 min we would still ride, but if that goes to even 25 or heaven forbid 30 we may choose not to ride. Now we are experiencing one less attraction meaning we get less value for our entry ticket. That will not make us happy. Hopefully that will be balanced out with a shorter wait at SM or BTMRR assuming we didn't get FP+ for both. Also added to the mix is that we get to the world about 3 times per year so missing one attraction one time won't be a big deal, but if we always have that problem then we may look into attending other parks (UNI, SW, Legoland (yes DD4 wants to go there).
Also, there will still be plenty of first timers that don't know which rides they should be using FP+ for and making "bad" selections and of course there will be the ones that let Disney pick for them. Which should help those of us that know better.
It will no doubt take quite a while for the redistribution to be "perfected" so I am going into this with the mind set that this is a work in progress and hopefully it will maximized for both guest experience and company profit. Right now there are way more questions than answers and it is difficult to see how this will really play out and what the effects will be. I don't think the uncertainty is good for NextGen of Disney, hopefully they will be throwing us some more info to chew on soon.

My concerns are:

• If there will be same day FP+ avaialbe even if you have booked some in advance
• How will booking parade/fireworks spots and meet and greets effect those who don't want to waste FP+ on that but still want to attend said event
• Because we are somewhat local I may make dining reservations 180 days out (you really kinda have to now), but I may not book a hotel until 30 days or less out, what if I can't get FP+ to align with that
• What if someone in my party doesn't want a FP+ for a certain ride, do we have to waste a FP+ for that person or can we elect to only get some FP+ for some of our group
• We don't park hop often, but I don't want us to get screwed FP+ wise if we do decide to. Planning park hopping in advance seems like the opposite of what park hoppers were intended for. I doubt WDW wants folks to stop paying for the park hopper option.

I hope this makes sense, I've been interrupted a few times while writing.
Tracy

 

[goherdibg]

Thinking about this a little more....FP+ may affect me somewhat negatively especially if they require the wristbands.

I have one daughter who loves to go on RnRc and one who will not go on it. My wife is not too fond of it either so she takes the one daughter off to do other things while I ride with the daughter who loves it. We will typically get 4 FP's for it, wait for the return time, use the first 2, get back in line and use the other 2.

My guess is I won't be able to do this with the wristbands as they will probably check both at the beginning of the queue and at the meet point. If we are allowed to opt out of the wristbands and use our KTTW cards, I assume I could still get 2 rides in - unless the names are printed on the cards and the CM would look at my card and know I was not <wife's name>.

 

[stlphil]

IMHO, TSM, ToT, RnRC, and ST are DHS's marque attractions and the only attractions at DHS that should have FP. (Unless you feel no attractions should have FP.) Depending on what numbers you trust, combined capacity is around 6,500 guests per hour. (Reported capacities for some of these attractions vary wildly.) Assuming a 12-hour operating day, this equates to a daily capacity of 78,000. Not all capacity is allocated to FP. Reports vary so I'll assume a middle ground of 55%. This means there are about 43,000 FP available for these 4 attractions.

DHS averages 26,600 guests per day. On busier days, attendance will be much higher. Even with longer park hours, guests should be able to average 1-to-2 "good" FP+ for DHS's 4 most popular attractions. Disney will have to create a lot of "filler" FP+ (think LMA) in order to meet the "3 FP+ per person" requirement.

Let's also recognize that the Standby line for TSM can be longer than the combined Standby lines for ToT, RnRC, and ST. TSM FP+ are really "valuable".

Since I know how to game the current FP system, I know how to get a lot more than 3 FP per day at DHS. I'm sure most experienced WDW guests can do the same. Experienced WDW guests will lose as a result of FP+. Inexperienced WDW guests will gain.

Since MK has so many "good" attractions, I suspect guests will be happier with their 3 FP+ choices at MK.

TSM will likely be a particularly serious problem due to relatively low capacity coupled with extremely high demand. There are only enough slots for a fraction of all the guests in the park to ride it on a typical day, and an even smaller fraction will be FP+.

Even if Disney doesn't reserve slots for day of, many FP+ "reservers" will be locked out of TSM if they aren't early to the reservation window and will have to choose to reserve a different attraction in that category. If Disney does reserve slots for day of, then even more of those people trying to reserve earlier will be disappointed.

Yes, TSM is a problem even now, but I think most people can reluctantly resign themselves to "first come, first served". But with Disney promising their bright, shiny, and new advanced reservation system to on-site guests and others who get to reserve early, I think people will be less forgiving if they are shut out of a ride they really want.

 

[goherdibg]

We are all experienced FP users and game the system well. We sometimes forget that the overwhelming majority of WDW guests don't know WDW as well as we do.

Since I know how to game the current FP system, I know how to get a lot more than 3 FP per day at DHS. I'm sure most experienced WDW guests can do the same. Experienced WDW guests will lose as a result of FP+. Inexperienced WDW guests will gain.

What is this "gaming of the system" you speak of (in 2 different posts)?

I have gotten 5 FP's in one day but do not consider it gaming the system. It is just smart touring. Am I missing something?

 

[ParentsOf4]

What is this "gaming of the system" you speak of (in 2 different posts)?

I have gotten 5 FP's in one day but do not consider it gaming the system. It is just smart touring. Am I missing something?

Call it "smart touring" or "playing the game smartly". I simply call it "gaming the system". "Gaming the system" can have a negative connotation but it's not always the case. It can mean to simply use the rules of the system to one's own advantage. Sorry for the confusion!

When FP was created, I do not believe Disney intended that relatively few people would receive disproportionate numbers of FP. Disney is attempting to "fix" this unintended outcome by allocating FP+ on a per person basis.

 

[muteki]

Really, my #1 concern with all this isn't the privacy issues or the over-scheduling of vacations. When you get right down to it, what bothers me the most is that I'm going to be given a hard limit on how many FP's I can get (instead of how many I am willing to work for), and not only that, but of the few I am allotted, they are blocked such that I am forced into getting ones I don't want. This is a purely selfish concern, but heck, I am paying for this vacation. I don't want/need a FP for Small World. With FP+, because of limited availability and the blocked groupings, it may be my only choice when I wouldn't have wanted one anyway.

I am somewhat surprised at the lack of coverage of this aspect. Maybe it is because Disney hasn't put out anything official, but you would think (and I hope) that when it does come out that you are going to be limited to "n" amount of FPs per day, that it is on the front page of this and every other WDW info site bold and center, not just buried in forum discussions. I really think for the masses of people that aren't as informed this is going to come as quite a surprise.

 

[Mawg]

Something I don’t quite understand is by introducing FastPass+ you take people out of the standby line and put them in another line. Therefore the Standby line moves slower but you’ve also reduced the demand for the standby line making it shorter. If there are 15000 people that want to ride a ride and the capacity of the ride is 1500 people in an hour and the ride operates 10 hours a day then all people should be able to ride the ride. If people were spaced out appropriately then there would never be a wait for either line. Problems start occurring when a greater majority of people want to ride the ride at the same peak hours. If you could take that group of people and space them out across the 10 hours then you solve the problem. I believe that is what FastPass+ is attempting to do, get people to schedule their ride times during non-peak hours. We don’t really know the math behind FastPass+ but if I had to come up with an algorithm for the distribution of time slots I would certainly allow more for the non-peak times to spread out the crowds. At times when the standby line is nearly empty and the ride is not full to capacity I would allow more FastPass+’s. The even bigger problem comes when the ride capacity for the day is less than the demand. This means the standby line will continue to grow throughout the day and at the end some people will not be able to ride. Since they always allow those waiting in line to ride even after the attraction closes they still get to ride but the deterrent to keep people out of line and having the attraction run to the wee hours of the morning are that the line has become too long and people are not willing to give up their time. Such is the case with Toy Story Mania.

In a perfect utopia theme park with no lines all attractions would have a capacity to handle the demand for the day and people would be spaced out accordingly so that they showed up at the exact time that they should ride it. Think about it like the red spool of tickets at the meat counter or return line. You get a number and you ride when it’s your time and you are free to “Shop around while you wait”. Since we know the throughput of the ride a computer should be able to tell you when it’s close to your turn to ride. A computer should also be able to tell you when you are $&!# out of luck and the ride demand has exceeded the capacity and you will not be able to ride today.

I don’t understand why they don’t allow even more FastPass+’s. If more people are scheduled to ride then they are taken out of the standby line and sent back at a more appropriate time. I guess it just comes down to no one likes a schedule.

They should do away with the standby line completely. Prior to your vacation you plug in your dinning reservations, nap times, start day time, end day time and which parks on which days (can be more than one park in a day), you then plug in all your favorite rides, meet and greets, shows and the things you have no desire to do. The computer then comes up with an logical touring plan through the park in a logical order and gives you time slots for everything you want to do. It will allow you to do things more than once but only if the demand for the attraction does not exceed it’s capacity. And if there are more people that want to experience an attraction than capacity allows it tells you don’t waste your time. This would not happen as often as you think because the system would only allow for you to experience an attraction once if demand is high thus eliminating repeat riders taking more than one spot. This all of course would never happen as the human element that it’s too structured and ridged would deter people from coming. Therefore, the best solution to the problem is to build more damn rides!

 

[fosse76]

I think the balance is that guests will only be able to use 1 FP+ per day. Plus, with FP+ there are more FP attractions, including rides, shows, fireworks viewing areas and quick service restaurants. As I have read more of the fine print, I am much more comfortable with the idea than I was!

Edited to add- I think the 3-4 number being tossed around is per vacation...not per day. The "rules" as currently published say 1 per day.

Now I'm confused. I thought FP+ was going to replace FP. If that's true, I find it beyond absurd that they would restrict the number you could get, since the current limit on regular FP's depends on wait times, as opposed to a hard number. I have already significantly reduced my trips to WDW (I only went once last year). If I can only get one FP a day I don't eally see the point in even having the system at all.

 

[muteki]

Now I'm confused. I thought FP+ was going to replace FP. If that's true, I find it beyond absurd that they would restrict the number you could get, since the current limit on regular FP's depends on wait times, as opposed to a hard number. I have already significantly reduced my trips to WDW (I only went once last year). If I can only get one FP a day I don't eally see the point in even having the system at all.

Set your expectations low, then you won't be disappointed?

 

[Mawg]

Now I'm confused. I thought FP+ was going to replace FP. If that's true, I find it beyond absurd that they would restrict the number you could get, since the current limit on regular FP's depends on wait times, as opposed to a hard number. I have already significantly reduced my trips to WDW (I only went once last year). If I can only get one FP a day I don't eally see the point in even having the system at all.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that you would be able to get either 3 or 4 each day depending on which park you are going to. MK 4 in a day, the other 3 parks 3 in a day.

 

[Mawg]

I'm going in June, does anyone know if by that time there will still be a choice of FastPass or FastPass+ or will it only be FastPass+ by then? I don't think I've seen any information as to dates yet.

I'm going with a party of 11 (family reunion), 3 reservation numbers. I've been given the tasks of all the planning. Will I be able to schedule all 11 party members fast passes? If I have the reservation numbers?

Can you split your immediate party up between fast passes, I will have a few kids in the group not tall enough to ride some rides, can I just get 6 for one attraction and schedule the other 5 to do something else (one of them has epilepsy and can't do dark rides with flashing lights)?

Do you have to pay your vacation off before you schedule?

Is there any place where Disney has published anything definate yet? Or is it still just this is what we are going to do but we are not sure how we are going to do it yet?

 

[ginnymack]

FP+ will replace FP. That's been confirmed by Disney. You will be guaranteed at least 3 FP+ per day assuming you switch your tickets to Disney's new FP+ system. It's probably best if you stay onsite since onsite guests are likely to be given some advantage when selected FP+ experiences."

I do not believe this is the case. Again, the current published policy is 1 FP+ PER DAY. And 3/4 per vacation. FP+ essentially is being added to the existing FP policy. Giving resort guests a slight edge, but will not make off property guests bitter. The old FP is not going away, and a subset of those will be used for the FP + users. Based on what has been published it appears that the FP+ may be a fee based add on for off property guests.

This of course may change in the more distant future, but I think we will see the current 1 pass policy for some time. With the addition of other attraction, I believe this will have ZERO effect on hopping and MINIMAL IF ANY effect on standby by times for most attractions.[/quote]

 

[ParentsOf4]

I do not believe this is the case. Again, the current published policy is 1 FP+ PER DAY. And 3/4 per vacation. FP+ essentially is being added to the existing FP policy. Giving resort guests a slight edge, but will not make off property guests bitter. The old FP is not going away, and a subset of those will be used for the FP + users. Based on what has been published it appears that the FP+ may be a fee based add on for off property guests.

This of course may change in the more distant future, but I think we will see the current 1 pass policy for some time. With the addition of other attraction, I believe this will have ZERO effect on hopping and MINIMAL IF ANY effect on standby by times for most attractions.

You might find the My Disney Experience Terms and Conditions informative:

http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/media/park-experience-terms-and-conditions.html

For example:

You are required to convert paper tickets and passes in order to make and use FastPass+ selections. Once you convert a ticket or pass you will no longer be able to participate in the standard FASTPASS service upon arrival at the parks.

 

[GoofGoof]

I do not believe this is the case. Again, the current published policy is 1 FP+ PER DAY. And 3/4 per vacation. FP+ essentially is being added to the existing FP policy. Giving resort guests a slight edge, but will not make off property guests bitter. The old FP is not going away, and a subset of those will be used for the FP + users. Based on what has been published it appears that the FP+ may be a fee based add on for off property guests.

This of course may change in the more distant future, but I think we will see the current 1 pass policy for some time. With the addition of other attraction, I believe this will have ZERO effect on hopping and MINIMAL IF ANY effect on standby by times for most attractions.

[/quote]

Where is this published? It would be nice if true, but unlikely.

 

[ginnymack]

That is the site I was reading from. I had a different interpretation of the once per day...upon re reading, I think it means that you cannot get 2 fast passes for the same attraction in one day.

 

[GoofGoof]

That is the site I was reading from. I had a different interpretation of the once per day...upon re reading, I think it means that you cannot get 2 fast passes for the same attraction in one day.

You got our hopes up

 

[John]

Sorry this has just more crazy by the minute. If it is going to be one per day? and they still have the current system why would anybody want to switch? Yes, I know I am thinking like a experienced park goer but even the "once in a lifetime will quickly realize they have made a mistake. PO4you mentioned that we will be at a disadvantage? I think we will if you want to get the special M&G or fireworks spot but if you just want to do rides....stay with the old system and get your 5-6 FP's a day.

Now IMO I dont think DIsney is going to allow it. I think that unless everyone participates in NG it will defeat the purpose of it in the first place. If everyone dosnt participate how will the data collected be counted on as accurate? I dont think there will be a "opt-out" option.

I am sure it will be more then 1 per day....but 5-6 is better then 3-4....right?