Fast Pass Removal?

[lnsemsf]

FP often does more harm than good, just take a look at TSMM. At DCA, where there is no FP, waits very rarely top 1 hr; at DHS waits are frequently in the 70-90 min window.

It's really hard to be sure about that statement because of the total daily attendence for DCA. I've rarely seen Soarin' Over California be over 30 minutes even with fastpass, except on some summer weekends or days when a convention is in town, then it hits 45-60. Most days I go during the week I've seen Soarin' as a near walkon by 2pm. When was the last time you saw the Epcot versions standby line empty by 2pm? So just because the attraction is the same in 2 places doesnt mean the queue patterns match.

 

[JamieD]

I believe that FP does make the stand-by line slightly longer on busy days. But, as one guy posted, if you plan even a little bit, you can get so much more done! I mean, who hasn't got a FP for BTMRR and then gotten in line for SM, or vice versa? Instead of two 45-60 waits, you might have one 45-60 and one 10-15 minute. Sounds like a deal to me, not to mention, that's more time to shop, enjoy other attractions, eat, see some shows, shop, take in a parade, eat...did I mention shop and eat? Don't get it twisted, that's Disney's favorite part! Overall, I think it creates a better experience for the guest and gives patron opportunities to spend more...a win/win for everyone.

As for Pay-to-Play, I've never liked it at Six Flags and such, and think it would be a public relations nightmare for WDW. Maybe more restrictions or something, but I don't think they'll ever add a charge.

BTW, anyone else notice the "bonus" FP that you sometimes receive for secondary attractions? I got a FP for BLSRS and received the "bonus" FP for Carosel of Progress. Interesting marketing if you ask me...planting the seed about and inviting you to lesser visited attraction, while also creating a sense of urgency that you must visit the attraction (that no one else is on) between these times.

 

[Jorden]

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It's really hard to be sure about that statement because of the total daily attendence for DCA. I've rarely seen Soarin' Over California be over 30 minutes even with fastpass, except on some summer weekends or days when a convention is in town, then it hits 45-60. Most days I go during the week I've seen Soarin' as a near walkon by 2pm. When was the last time you saw the Epcot versions standby line empty by 2pm? So just because the attraction is the same in 2 places doesnt mean the queue patterns match.

I always thought that was because of two things.

1. It opened in Cali four years earlier than Epcot.
2. The locals/repeat visitors are in great numbers in Cali. I know for me Soarin' was nice but not something I need to hit every time I visit the park. Maybe California is more "sick" of Soarin' than Florida is. Whereas Florida gets many more tourists who've ether never been before or haven't been in years.

Now I know that proves your point, but I look at TSM as different.

1. they opened within a month of each other.
2. they've been open for just over a year. In either case there are still plenty of people who've never ridden the attraction.

Edited to ad: I'm not 100% sure of attendance figures but I'd assume daily attendance is closer to DHS than Epcot at DCA making for roughly the same amount of people heading to TSM and less to Soarin...

So essentially I agree Soarin's doesn't match but I think TSM's matches pretty closely...

 

[Jorden]

I believe that FP does make the stand-by line slightly longer on busy days. But, as one guy posted, if you plan even a little bit, you can get so much more done! I mean, who hasn't got a FP for BTMRR and then gotten in line for SM, or vice versa? Instead of two 45-60 waits, you might have one 45-60 and one 10-15 minute. Sounds like a deal to me, not to mention, that's more time to shop, enjoy other attractions, eat, see some shows, shop, take in a parade, eat...did I mention shop and eat? Don't get it twisted, that's Disney's favorite part! Overall, I think it creates a better experience for the guest and gives patron opportunities to spend more...a win/win for everyone.

I think the thought pattern is if fastpass wasn't there instead of two 45-60 minute waits you'ld have two 25-30 minute waits and still end up waiting the same amount of time overall in essence.
antifastpass
I'm not 100% sure if that's true but that's the point I gather from the people, and I've seen a little evidence myself from working in an attraction. You're expected to send a certain amount of fastpass people through then you send roughly 10% of that number through from standby then go right back to fastpass (which is why fastpass works). But then in theroy the standby line would move 90% quicker if there was no fastpass. I can't say it'd be perfect but there are definatly rides that would benefit without fastpass based off that principle...

 

[everest-dude]

as long as the E ticket rides dont lose it i really could care less...stich doesnt need it...i actually call that ride stiches great mistake...it makes me want to throw up the ride is so awful :hurl:

 

[GrannyJill2]

Originally Posted by ms7479a
They are trying out something new at Animal Kingdom with the Its Tough to Be A Bug fastpass machines. Now, at these machines, you can get fastpasses for Kilimanjaro Safari, Dinosaur, and Everest. This means that guests don't have to cross all the way across the entire park to pick up a new fastpass. Its just a test at the moment and I'm not sure how much longer they will be trying it.

Wow! I hate having to trot back and forth across each park, but maybe that's the point. More opportunities to shop, eat, collapse in a heap, as you race for the FP machines. :lol: :lol:

It would make more sense for them to place machines throughout the parks that allow you to get FP for any of the MAJOR attractions. That would alleviate the crowd situation, don't you think?

 

[Figment632]

Originally Posted by ms7479a
They are trying out something new at Animal Kingdom with the Its Tough to Be A Bug fastpass machines. Now, at these machines, you can get fastpasses for Kilimanjaro Safari, Dinosaur, and Everest. This means that guests don't have to cross all the way across the entire park to pick up a new fastpass. Its just a test at the moment and I'm not sure how much longer they will be trying it.

Wow! I hate having to trot back and forth across each park, but maybe that's the point. More opportunities to shop, eat, collapse in a heap, as you race for the FP machines. :lol: :lol:

It would make more sense for them to place machines throughout the parks that allow you to get FP for any of the MAJOR attractions. That would alleviate the crowd situation, don't you think?

The only problem I see with this is that the FP could run out a lot quicker.

 

[JamieD]

I think the thought pattern is if fastpass wasn't there instead of two 45-60 minute waits you'ld have two 25-30 minute waits and still end up waiting the same amount of time overall in essence.
antifastpass
I'm not 100% sure if that's true but that's the point I gather from the people, and I've seen a little evidence myself from working in an attraction. You're expected to send a certain amount of fastpass people through then you send roughly 10% of that number through from standby then go right back to fastpass (which is why fastpass works). But then in theroy the standby line would move 90% quicker if there was no fastpass. I can't say it'd be perfect but there are definatly rides that would benefit without fastpass based off that principle...

I understand the thinking behind this. I think FP does it's intended job if two things occur...1) it needs to be on more popular attractions, generally E-tickets and 2) the ride ops have to be well-versed in how to manage both lines.

I been on some FP rides, in both the FP and SB lines, where I felt like the ride op was letting an abnormal amount of guests through the other line. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'm guessing that someone smarter than me has come up with a formula that keeps both lines moving and therefore shorter. It's obviously they only hand out so many FPs or only so many in a given time period, that there must be a mathmatical coorelation with the number of FP vs SB guests allowed to board. Some sort of ratio has been calculated, I'm sure. I don't know what it is, but if the ride ops are not following it, the system isn't working to maximum efficiency.

 

[jakeman]

Applying some simple math here:

If an attraction has an hourly ride capacity of 1000 people per hour and Fastpass distributes 200 tickets per hour block, then 800 people in the standby line and 200 people in the Fastpass line should be able to get through in 1 hour.

If there are 3000 people in the standby line without Fastpass it would take them 3 hours to get through. With Fastpass, it would take them 3 hours and 45 minutes to go through. Increasing the wait time by 45 minutes. However, what everyone seems to willfully ignore is that in that 3 hours and 45 minutes an additional 750 people with Fastpass will also be going through the line for a total of 3750 people.

Your hourly ride capacity doesn't change. The standby line is increased, but the only people that are at a disadvantage are those that choose not to get a Fastpass.

This math applies to all attractions. I don't really understand the argument that it works for some attractions and not others. Math is math. Unless there is something in the Fastpass system that lowers the hourly ride capacity for attractions, the system is sound.

The people in the standby line are choosing, not to wait in a single que of people, but in a single que and a virtual que as well. Fastpass patrons are only waiting in the virtual que.

 

[redkoala245]

I have noticed that for some of the attractions. But seeing the large crowds, they don't need FP for them anyway.

 

[TubaGeek]

Applying some simple math here:

If an attraction has an hourly ride capacity of 1000 people per hour and Fastpass distributes 200 tickets per hour block, then 800 people in the standby line and 200 people in the Fastpass line should be able to get through in 1 hour.

If there are 3000 people in the standby line without Fastpass it would take them 3 hours to get through. With Fastpass, it would take them 3 hours and 45 minutes to go through. Increasing the wait time by 45 minutes. However, what everyone seems to willfully ignore is that in that 3 hours and 45 minutes an additional 750 people with Fastpass will also be going through the line for a total of 3750 people.

Your hourly ride capacity doesn't change. The standby line is increased, but the only people that are at a disadvantage are those that choose not to get a Fastpass.

This math applies to all attractions. I don't really understand the argument that it works for some attractions and not others. Math is math. Unless there is something in the Fastpass system that lowers the hourly ride capacity for attractions, the system is sound.

The people in the standby line are choosing, not to wait in a single que of people, but in a single que and a virtual que as well. Fastpass patrons are only waiting in the virtual que.

For me the bottom line is this: I use Fast Pass, I spend less time in a real line. I don't know why anyone would NOT get a Fast Pass. It just works out so much better if you take the bit of effort and USE the system.

 

[glendroid]

also ever notice from about 9am to 10 am the lines run smooth?

i think that lines only really build up when fastpasses begin to be accepted at 10 and when small break downs happen.

and in this case i'm talking about rides with a fast dispatch time like buzz(Continual loading). Technically Everest could have fast lines without fastpass running. it has a very high capacity per vehicle...

just my two cents. i think fast pass is horrible, in most cases

 

[Bluewaves]

like anything in life if you know how the system works you have an advantage.

 

[jakeman]

For me the bottom line is this: I use Fast Pass, I spend less time in a real line. I don't know why anyone would NOT get a Fast Pass. It just works out so much better if you take the bit of effort and USE the system.

I don't understand it either. Unless there has been a proven decrease in the hourly ride capacity, the Fastpass system works for those that know how to use it.

I wouldn't trade it in for the world, and I've yet to see any evidence that points to the system being broken, regardless of the ride system its uses.

 

[WDWmazprty]

For me the bottom line is this: I use Fast Pass, I spend less time in a real line. I don't know why anyone would NOT get a Fast Pass. It just works out so much better if you take the bit of effort and USE the system.

I don't understand it either. Unless there has been a proven decrease in the hourly ride capacity, the Fastpass system works for those that know how to use it.

I wouldn't trade it in for the world, and I've yet to see any evidence that points to the system being broken.

Agreed! Having fastpass and sometimes having long lines is better than not having fastpass at all and having long lines ALL the time.

 

[JamieD]

Applying some simple math here:

If an attraction has an hourly ride capacity of 1000 people per hour and Fastpass distributes 200 tickets per hour block, then 800 people in the standby line and 200 people in the Fastpass line should be able to get through in 1 hour.

If there are 3000 people in the standby line without Fastpass it would take them 3 hours to get through. With Fastpass, it would take them 3 hours and 45 minutes to go through. Increasing the wait time by 45 minutes. However, what everyone seems to willfully ignore is that in that 3 hours and 45 minutes an additional 750 people with Fastpass will also be going through the line for a total of 3750 people.

Your hourly ride capacity doesn't change. The standby line is increased, but the only people that are at a disadvantage are those that choose not to get a Fastpass.

This math applies to all attractions. I don't really understand the argument that it works for some attractions and not others. Math is math. Unless there is something in the Fastpass system that lowers the hourly ride capacity for attractions, the system is sound.

The people in the standby line are choosing, not to wait in a single que of people, but in a single que and a virtual que as well. Fastpass patrons are only waiting in the virtual que.

I haven't done the math, so I'll assume yours is correct. But, there is also a human element that is not figured in. The math can vary depending how the ride ops combine the lines at the merge point or, as the other poster stated, if a large amount of FP users are waiting at the entrance for their time to begin. Also, a FP will be accepted any time after the begin time, even if it's after the end time of the pass. This could cause the math to vary as well. I also believe continuously loading rides vary from train-type rides that vary from larger theater-type attractions. Math is math...computers are computers...but there is always a human element that will make things vary, even if only just slightly.

Like someone else stated, if you know how to work the system, it can be fantastic!

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I wouldn't trade it in for the world, and I've yet to see any evidence that points to the system being broken, regardless of the ride system its uses.

To this I point to Jungle Cruise.

Why is the FP line just as long as the stand-by line? Why are all the FP gone at midday when the stand-by wait is 40 min and other park attractions are significantly less (including Splash Mountain?) Why is it at TDL on a day when there are 2, 3 and 4 hour waits for other rides their JC (a clone of ours) has a 30 min wait?

The problem with JC is that variables that effect it's hourly capacity (number of skippers, boats in operation etc) along with the ratio of people chosen to get the crowds moving. FP is supposed to get priority over stand-by but there is a responsibility for CMs to get both lines moving, and when they're both packed it's hard to keep up with the intended expectations. FP is meant to reduce waits but with JC it's just two long lines seemingly moving at the same rate instead of everyone moving at once (there's no extra time for a CM to count x people in this line and x in the other, it's just 1 number constantly). Yes the number of people per hour is the same technically but that by no means guarantees your wait will be shorter. It should be, but with JC it isn't.

I'm sure our resident Sir Goofy will elaborate, but I can tell you from experience FP will not get you a short wait for JC, especially when you factor in the time yo have to wait to get into to the FP line!

Of course the best line for getting you a short wait is the sing rider line, which ensures that the theoretical capacity is met (by filling in all available slots instead of leaving 2-5 empty per vehicle) without the wait to get a ticket and for it's time slot to be ready. I'd much rather have that for BTMRR, for example, than FP.

 

[jakeman]

I haven't done the math, so I'll assume yours is correct. But, there is also a human element that is not figured in. The math can vary depending how the ride ops combine the lines at the merge point or, as the other poster stated, if a large amount of FP users are waiting at the entrance for their time to begin. Also, a FP will be accepted any time after the begin time, even if it's after the end time of the pass. This could cause the math to vary as well. I also believe continuously loading rides vary from train-type rides that vary from larger theater-type attractions. Math is math...computers are computers...but there is always a human element that will make things vary, even if only just slightly.

Like someone else stated, if you know how to work the system, it can be fantastic!

Oh I agree, however, if hourly ride capacity has not decreased then there is not a problem, simple as that.

While training of individual CMs can make the operation smoother, the system itself is fine.

The Fastpass argument is 90% perception that there is a problem.

I'm sure our resident Sir Goofy will elaborate, but I can tell you from experience FP will not get you a short wait for JC, especially when you factor in the time yo have to wait to get into to the FP line!

Interesting, I can point to the exact opposite in my experiences.

 

[Foolish1]

Somebody said that they thought FastPass increases wait time. Over all, it never changes. But for those in the stand-by queues, yes it does.

But here are a few things to consider. Why put in FastPass in the first place? Isn't there a better answer? I could say yes in two ways. First, increase the ride capacity. That isn't going to happen. Second, build more attractions. That has almost the same effect as increasing ride/attraction capacity.

But increasing ride capacity doesn't address one other issue, which FastPass does. In a few cases, it is known that Disney put in FastPass on attractions to increase foot traffic (business) to a variety of shops and restaurants. More attractions or higher capacity does not do that.

Next, as for does FP hurt an attraction? I think it does too, but maybe not for an obvious reason. Let's say an attraction has a capacity of 1000 people an hour. And Disney decides that they will hand out 200 FP's for any given hour. That means 800 people in the stand-by line get through each hour. But that isn't all that impressive if you have 3000 people in line right now. So what Disney should do is, reduce the number of FP's being handed out. What I am saying is, the number of FastPasses handed out should be inversely proportional to the actual people in the stand-by line.

I personally think FP has a place. But people are very correct that having FP for SGE is quit pointless. But it may server another purpose we have not considered. What if Disney collects data on guest movement, etc. by offering FP at SGE, despite it not being needed? Just a thought.

Am I the only one that misses the FP line for Haunted Mansion? I loved that one. Most of the FP stations were not that impressive. But that one was great! Great location and great theming.

One last thought. Just because the stand-by line has become enormous, doesn't mean that is bad. Why? Well, there are people who did use FP and got out of it exactly what they wanted, and that was to not stand in line. And that's what Disney promised them with FP for that given attraction.

Any cases where you are unhappy and feel that FP has made something worse, to me at least, just proves that they are giving out too many FP's, not that FP's are bad for that attraction. That's all. They should reduce the number of FP's. Having a fixed number of FP's is a huge mistake, and something somebody once told me lead me to believe that is the case.

 

[Jorden]

Lets say for rough math as well (not saying I'm agreeing with yours just putting it into another concept). Since capacity does stay the same.

Mission Space seats 160 people at a time if all 4 bays are running (which depending on crowds/protein/people forgetting items in the capsules is sometimes less). But if everything is running optimally you have 4 bays running about every 7 minutes (my rough guess on the time frame). So for sake of easy math lets say you have 160 people every 10 minutes or 1600 an hour.

Let's say out of every 40 people (or full bay) 4 are standby. This helps with the rough 10% rule I mentioned earlier.

So for each run of the ride you have 144 Fastpass users and 16 standby users. I have seen busy times where the lines are defiantly long enough all around to support this and yes people complained about slow lines.

Now I know this isn't perfect for capicty and such but it's close on a rough scale. Would you get in a line knowing you were only going to move 16 people every 10 minutes? Or 160 people an hour?

Or would you prefer the line that moves 160 people every 10 minutes and 1600 an hour?

I agree that this isn't the same for every ride and fastpass works for those who know how to use it, but quite honestly lines would be much faster and bearable in more than a few cases without fastpass. Especially those (Buzz) that constantly move.

This post was in reply to Jakeman's math post more than Foolish1s (who's was posted while I was typing this).