Fantasmic! 2.0 Rumors, Speculation, Announcments

George Lucas on a Bench

Well-Known Member
Well, the Peter Pan scene, excuse me, Johnny Depp scene, makes a huge difference. But the biggest difference is that at WDW you have to go into a sort of stadium with uncomfortable seats, wait for the show and then join this sea of people exiting and suffer 145,000 panic attacks.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
This guy in Freshbaked echos the negative review rumor for the new segments. But, this is just a rumor, from freshbaked nonetheless, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

GiveMeTheMusic

Well-Known Member
Curious as to what scenes people think are being copied and pasted from Tokyo. The jungle scene sounds like it will be closest to its Tokyo counterpart, but the Aladdin, Pirates and Tangled scenes don't appear in the Tokyo show.

Maybe people on MiceChat or wherever should keep their panties wad-free until they can see the show for themselves.
 
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SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Curious as to what scenes people think are being copied and pasted from Tokyo. The jungle scene sounds like it will be closest to its Tokyo counterpart, but the Aladdin, Pirates and Tangled scenes don't appear in the Tokyo show.

Maybe people on MiceChat or wherever should keep their parties wad-free until they can see the show for themselves.

Eh, speculation, false rumors, and people voicing opinions on things they know little about are going to be prevalent on any online forum, especially with Disney where so many have an emotional attachment. I don't think it's fair to criticize people on "micechat or wherever" for being upset or voicing negative opinions about these changes, especially when not many have the same insight into the happenings as yourself. While I do think the Micechat forums as a whole are full of toxicity, I don't think we should limit their right (or ours) to voicing our opinions regarding these changes, whether negative or positive.

AGAIN I WILL SAY that the Pirates segment is in the show. It was announced by Disney. It is a done deal. They cannot just switch back to Peter Pan. The new cast is not trained on the Peter Pan choreography. The soundtrack would need to be reinstated. New costumes and rehearsals would be needed. Show segments are not Legos that can be swapped out at whim.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the pirates segment will be in the show (I mean, we have the audio for heaven's sake), just the merit of the change.
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
WDW has been pitched a Fantasmic overhaul by the same team doing DL's. Needless to say, they don't feel the need to do it just yet. WDW guests have zero standards.

How does management not doing an overhaul mean WDW guests have zero standards? Just curious. It's called management being too cheap and using the excuse of being a tourist destination, like many things. Let's not blame all WDW guests.
 

GiveMeTheMusic

Well-Known Member
How does management not doing an overhaul mean WDW guests have zero standards? Just curious. It's called management being too cheap and using the excuse of being a tourist destination, like many things. Let's not blame all WDW guests.

WDW guests rave about their untouched 1998 Fantasmic. All a TDO exec has to do when faced with a redo proposal is point to Fantasmic's guest satisfaction numbers. "Guests love it!" And they DO. So why spend money to update it?

See also Beauty and the Beast, Voyage of the Little Mermaid, Illuminations, etc.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
In a way, it's just as fair as criticizing a show that hasn't even opened yet.

That's a stretch. The only way it's fair to criticize people voicing concerns for these changes, would be to also criticize people voicing excitement for the show that hasn't even opened yet.
 

NobodyElse

Well-Known Member
That's a stretch. The only way it's fair to criticize people voicing concerns for these changes, would be to also criticize people voicing excitement for the show that hasn't even opened yet.

IMO, concern or excitement for something that may or may not come to pass if fine. Criticism and judgement of something that hasn't happened yet (often based on third-hand "information") isn't necessarily valid or warranted. I see a difference. YMMV.
 
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Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
Well, the chosen date for the big debut of the new edition of the Show has been announced.
Am I the only one in thinking this could be the perfect storm for utter mayhem in the Park that evening..?
Not just the typical crowds...but uber-mega-insane-24 hour party-crazy crowds.

Think about it -
D23 Expo crowds will all in town, and you know darn well they will want to see it.
Peak Summer Season, with all the usual crowd levels.
Every local, APer, blogger, and fanboi within a 800 mile radius will want to be there to 'see / report it first'.
Disneyland's Birthday, and the folks who come to honor the anniversary and / or aquire the related merchandise.

Sounds to me , with all those factors going on, that the debut Show will be a utter madhouse as far as attendence goes.
I'm expecting massive parking issues, people fighting over their 'viewing spot' hours in advance, and wall to wall people left right and center.

Good luck to those attempting it.
I salute you!


-
 
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nevol

Well-Known Member
The odd mix of kitsch, disney classics, spectacle, sorcerer mickey, psychedelic rock (in the pachyderms //jungle book scene), and odd cuteness (pinocchio puppets) worked incredibly well because the show clearly sets up that it is a tour through mickey's dreams. It becomes a good versus evil story, but the whole sum was stronger than its individual parts because of that opposition and variety. It showed a relatively wide range of creative and aesthetic and instrumental deliverables. It premiered around the same time as Twin Peaks, so honestly, looking back at it now, it is kind of Disneyland's version of twin peaks. For those who haven't seen fantasmic yet/before, the rock music is unexpected in the park, the mix of practical effects, live actors, pyro, and projection in different ways, and the unexpected transformation of tom sawyer island, the sailing ship, and mark twain each contribute to this incredible sense of wonder and surprise. It is as if these things are appearing out of thin air.

THAT was what made fantasmic so incredible. Through its high and low points, there was a strong sense that it emulated a lucid dream. The orlando show is inferior because the show doesn't float out of the park the way somebody daydreaming might begin to imagine weird stimuli along the banks of the rivers of america; they are seated and expecting a show, and the quality of that show and its set pieces can be judged and weighted against any other live production on the planet. At disneyland, the mark twain is superior to their ship, and beyond that, it wasn't built for the show; it is leveraged wonderfully, so while using existing assets presents design constraints, it also removes potential for much criticism.

Newer shows try to emulate fantasmic but entirely miss the point. I hope remember... dreams come true sticks around because its subject matter is disneyland, honors walt disney, and it features a score that mixes well with when you wish upon a star. It doesn't compete with the animated and studio entertainment collages we see everywhere now with disneyland forever, world of color, and happily ever after. Its strongest theme is nostalgia, cementing disneyland's place in people's hearts and indoctrinating people into the club of people who have experienced, begun to understand, and love the park. Fantasmic is a lucid, abstract, surreal adventure, good versus evil tale in the form of a spectacle that presents mickey mouse, a globally recognizable icon with frankly very little actual media associated with him (almost by design, as a bad mickey mouse movie could eviscerate his selling power, the brand identity of the company, etc) in his best form as sorcerer mickey. These shows are perfectly distinguishable and this distinction makes them each worthy of being seen by disneyland guests. They are the west coast equivalent of wishes versus illuminations.. while they aren't that blatantly different, they are as different as it comes for the west coast. And as much as I just laid out how important and clear their differences are, the fact that the gap is far smaller than that between a magic kingdom firework and an epcot show goes to show how much less variety there is in the content of nighttime entertainment on the west coast (and park content for that matter).

Walt vs mickey
disneyland content versus content sourced across the company's other media platforms
nostalgia and romance versus adventure and good versus evil
classic versus contemporary (though fantasmic is classic now as well)

Newer shows seem to miss this point entirely. Fantasmic defines the genre of steve davison shows we see everywhere today, but it happened more carefully, and the newer shows that it has inspired seem to misunderstand how it worked. Happily ever after takes animation and theatrical projects and assembles them far more successfully than most recent shows into a hero's journey experience before turning it back to guests to encourage them to lead their own adventures and have the same courage to unlock their dreams as their favorite Disney protagonists do. But beyond that (and with Rivers of Light clearly omitted from this discussion for being the exception and not the rule), World of Color and Tokyo's fantasmic are kind of blah. The ballad opening of Tokyo's fantasmic is a complete snoozefest, and I can only speculate that they did this because the japanese audience loves english lyrics, even if they can't understand them, as the selling power of that resort to that audience is its very american identity, or because their audience thought the intro to the American fantasmic's was too scary/sudden (but neither the snoozefest intro and their corny lyricized take on the fantasmic score belong in our show). The show transforms into something no different from World of Color (but way worse), which is why changes to fantasmic are so alarming to some people. World of color individually is fine, as is Fantasmic, but mixed together incorrectly and you get a cancelling effect of each show's strengths.World of color has no story, and furthermore, it features the same movies and scores in some cases as fantasmic, even the same tech, creating redundancy that benefits nobody. This problem was made dramatically worse when Remember... was replaced by Disneyland Forever, and suddenly we had 3 movie montage shows playing at the same time in the same resort. They all reinforced the disney brand, but were so highly redundant in content and tech that by the time I dragged my friends to Fantasmic! (the most successful narratively speaking of all three), they were completely uninterested; "we get it, they play music and projections on buildings and water. its all the same crap." They insisted on taking a bathroom break and left before the finale.

Which is why I think that,
1. if fantasmic gets pirates, WOC needs to lose it, or...
2.If world of color is based on a tv show, then I would love to see the intro and finale maintained from it while the body be replaced by Happily Ever After, including the narration at its intro and conclusion that are essential to its success. This way, the same media can be presented for different reasons and in order to produce a different overall effect/emotion/point/lesson than either the way it is presented now (as a montage) or as it is in fantasmic. The contemporary impression of world of color would be retained by it sandwhiching happily ever after, while happily ever after's thoughtfulness would bring some depth to WOC. and,
3. Remember... cannot go anywhere. Why? because thankfully, its presence gives us some variety in nighttime entertainment. This means no generic Disneyland Forever, and it means not replacing RDCT with Happily Ever After. Why do I feel so strongly about this? Because Remember is that classic disneyland experience of a firework show, amplified, honoring disneyland. Happily ever after replacing it would eliminate that nostalgia moment and give disneyland TWO contemporary heroes journey nighttime shows featuring media borrowed from the disney enertainment catalogue that would compete directly with one another, while working twice as hard and as expensively to produce the same emotional and thematic response in park guests. Think about how strange it would be to watch Happily Ever After from the Rivers of America while awaiting your fantasmic showtime. One preceding the other would exhaust guests and ruin fantasmic before it has had a chance.

I echo the skepticism some have of the changes to fantasmic. It is easy to worry that steve's team thinks that all a show needs to be successful is a unique opening score and reprise of that score in the finale, a catchy name, and a bunch of meaningless and unrelated propaganda and music in the mid-section. It is easy to imagine the team is creating another montage show a la world of color, which itself is inspired by the original fantasmic, while completely missing the mark of preserving this show's flow and impression overall of being a lucid dream. I can 100% imagine a market research / guest survey-driven enhancement project in which the least popular scenes, a la pinocchio, are replaced (i hope that at least the jimminy cricket scene where he starts to drown before peter pan remains as the intro to Pirates). The logic they'd be following is that of replacing weaker scenes with stronger ones or ones that sound more exciting on paper to produce a show that is stronger from end to end, while unfortunately, guests answering a survey nor those interpreting said data are likely to understand that the show is more than the sum of its parts, and when you subtract some stranger elements, you can simplify/flatten the overall experience and make it less surprising or as meaningless as World of Color. The lion king scene we are expecting to replace jungle book is frankly unwatchable. In disneyland's, sorcerer mickey was followed by exotic drums, psychedelic elephants, cute/odd puppets, a drowning scene of jimminy cricket and mickey, followed by peter pan,which relieved audiences of the fear and tension created in the previous scene. Nowhere in tokyo's show do I see this kind of emotional blending, leading in, and contrast. Having said that, I check youtube every morning for leaked footage or mattercam footage or distant audio of the show's rehearsals and I don't plan on returning to DL until the show is up and running. I want to love it; I gain nothing by harboring disappointment over it. I hope the new show equipment impresses audiences today the way the original equipment did when the show opened.
 
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vancee

Well-Known Member
The odd mix of kitsch, disney classics, spectacle, sorcerer mickey, psychedelic rock (in the pachyderms //jungle cruise scene), and odd cuteness (pinocchio puppets) worked incredibly well because the show clearly sets up that it is a tour through mickey's dreams. It becomes a good versus evil story, but the whole sum was stronger than its individual parts because of that opposition and variety. It showed a relatively wide range of creative and aesthetic and instrumental deliverables. It premiered around the same time as Twin Peaks, so honestly, looking back at it now, it is kind of Disneyland's version of twin peaks. For those who haven't seen fantasmic yet/before, the rock music is unexpected in the park, the mix of practical effects, live actors, pyro, and projection in different ways, and the unexpected transformation of tom sawyer island, the sailing ship, and mark twain each contribute to this incredible sense of wonder and surprise. It is as if these things are appearing out of thin air.

THAT was what made fantasmic so incredible. Through its high and low points, there was a strong sense that it emulated a lucid dream. The orlando show is inferior because the show doesn't float out of the park the way somebody daydreaming might begin to imagine weird stimuli along the banks of the rivers of america; they are seated and expecting a show, and the quality of that show and its set pieces can be judged and weighted against any other live production on the planet. At disneyland, the mark twain is superior to their ship, and beyond that, it wasn't built for the show; it is leveraged wonderfully, so while using existing assets presents design constraints, it also removes potential for much criticism.

Newer shows try to emulate fantasmic but entirely miss the point. I hope remember... dreams come true sticks around because its subject matter is disneyland, honors walt disney, and it features a score that mixes well with when you wish upon a star. It doesn't compete with the animated and studio entertainment collages we see everywhere now with disneyland forever, world of color, and happily ever after. Its strongest theme is nostalgia, cementing disneyland's place in people's hearts and indoctrinating people into the club of people who have experienced, begun to understand, and love the park. Fantasmic is a lucid, abstract, surreal adventure, good versus evil tale in the form of a spectacle that presents mickey mouse, a globally recognizable icon with frankly very little actual media associated with him (almost by design, as a bad mickey mouse movie could eviscerate his selling power, the brand identity of the company, etc) in his best form as sorcerer mickey. These shows are perfectly distinguishable and this distinction makes them each worthy of being seen by disneyland guests. They are the west coast equivalent of wishes versus illuminations.. while they aren't that blatantly different, they are as different as it comes for the west coast. And as much as I just laid out how important and clear their differences are, the fact that the gap is far smaller than that between a magic kingdom firework and an epcot show goes to show how much less variety there is in the content of nighttime entertainment on the west coast (and park content for that matter).

Walt vs mickey
disneyland content versus content sourced across the company's other media platforms
nostalgia and romance versus adventure and good versus evil
classic versus contemporary (though fantasmic is classic now as well)

Newer shows seem to miss this point entirely. Fantasmic defines the genre of steve davison shows we see everywhere today, but it happened more carefully, and the newer shows that it has inspired seem to misunderstand how it worked. Happily ever after takes animation and theatrical projects and assembles them far more successfully than most recent shows into a hero's journey experience before turning it back to guests to encourage them to lead their own adventures and have the same courage to unlock their dreams as their favorite Disney protagonists do. But beyond that (and with Rivers of Light clearly omitted from this discussion for being the exception and not the rule), World of Color and Tokyo's fantasmic are kind of blah. The ballad opening of Tokyo's fantasmic is a complete snoozefest, and I can only speculate that they did this because the japanese audience loves english lyrics, even if they can't understand them, as the selling power of that resort to that audience is its very american identity, or because their audience thought the intro to the American fantasmic's was too scary/sudden (but neither the snoozefest intro and their corny lyricized take on the fantasmic score belong in our show). The show transforms into something no different from World of Color, which is why changes to fantasmic are so alarming to some people. World of color individually is fine, as is Fantasmic, but mixed together incorrectly and you get a cancelling effect of each show's strengths.World of color has no story, and furthermore, it features the same movies and scores in some cases as fantasmic, even the same tech, creating redundancy that benefits nobody. This problem was made dramatically worse when Remember... was replaced by Disneyland Forever, and suddenly we had 3 movie montage shows playing at the same time in the same resort. They all reinforced the disney brand, but were so highly redundant in content and tech that by the time I dragged my friends to Fantasmic! (the most successful narratively speaking of all three), they were completely uninterested; "we get it, they play music and projections on buildings and water. its all the same crap." They insisted on taking a bathroom break and left before the finale.

Which is why I think that,
1. if fantasmic gets pirates, WOC needs to lose it, or...
2.If world of color is based on a tv show, then I would love to see the intro and finale maintained from it while the body be replaced by Happily Ever After, including the narration at its intro and conclusion that are essential to its success. This way, the same media can be presented for different reasons and in order to produce a different overall effect/emotion/point/lesson than either the way it is presented now (as a montage) or as it is in fantasmic. The contemporary impression of world of color would be retained by it sandwhiching happily ever after, while happily ever after's thoughtfulness would bring some depth to WOC. and,
3. Remember... cannot go anywhere. Why? because thankfully, its presence gives us some variety in nighttime entertainment. This means no generic Disneyland Forever, and it means not replacing RDCT with Happily Ever After. Why do I feel so strongly about this? Because Remember is that classic disneyland experience of a firework show, amplified, honoring disneyland. Happily ever after replacing it would eliminate that nostalgia moment and give disneyland TWO contemporary heroes journey nighttime shows featuring media borrowed from the disney enertainment catalogue that would compete directly with one another, while working twice as hard and as expensively to produce the same emotional and thematic response in park guests. Think about how strange it would be to watch Happily Ever After from the Rivers of America while awaiting your fantasmic showtime. One preceding the other would exhaust guests and ruin fantasmic before it has had a chance.

I echo the skepticism some have of the changes to fantasmic. It is easy to worry that steve's team thinks that all a show needs to be successful is a unique opening score and reprise of that score in the finale, a catchy name, and a bunch of meaningless and unrelated propaganda and music in the mid-section. It is easy to imagine the team is creating another montage show a la world of color, which itself is inspired by the original fantasmic, while completely missing the mark of preserving this show's flow and impression overall of being a lucid dream. I can 100% imagine a market research / guest survey-driven enhancement project in which the least popular scenes, a la pinocchio, are replaced (i hope that at least the jimminy cricket scene where he starts to drown before peter pan remains as the intro to Pirates). The logic they'd be following is that of replacing weaker scenes with stronger ones or ones that sound more exciting on paper to produce a show that is stronger from end to end, while unfortunately, guests answering a survey nor those interpreting said data are likely to understand that the show is more than the sum of its parts, and when you subtract some stranger elements, you can simplify/flatten the overall experience and make it less surprising or as meaningless as World of Color. Having said that, I check youtube every morning for leaked footage or mattercam footage or distant audio of the show's rehearsals and I don't plan on returning to DL until the show is up and running. I want to love it; I gain nothing by harboring disappointment over it. I hope the new show equipment impresses audiences today the way the original equipment did when the show opened.
Damn didn't know I was reading a book!
 

D.Silentu

Well-Known Member
Well said Nevol, you've really articulated what makes Disneyland's Fantasmic truly one of a kind! I especially agree with your third point illustrating how each show needs to balance with the others and have their own identity. On that note, I don't think anyone would really mind if they took World of Color back to concept and tried something unique.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
I think @nevol did a great job articulating why the 1992 iteration of the show really hasn't been replicated since.

I love that they're revamping the technology for the show, but it really seems like they're only swapping segments for the sake of being "new". The way I see it, each scene in the show is the equivalent to a room in one of the dark rides. If they said they were going to completely redo the ballroom scene in the haunted mansion, fans would go nuts. Yes, it would still be "the Haunted Mansion", and sure, a hypothetical new segment could "improve" the ride, but would it mesh well with the other scenes? Would it be as embraced by fans?

I hope that this new show is better than the original, because if it isn't, I doubt Disney will have the guts to switch back to the original. Whatever this new show is, we're gonna be stuck with it- so it better be pretty darn amazing.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I'm always interested by folks who seem to know what a new show will be like from just a few vague sentences read on the Internet. Not only do they know what the future holds, but they can judge it from the present. :)

Fantasmic! at Disneyland has been wonderful for 25 years. But it was a happy accident, a show that was originally only slated to run for three years until Toontown and Indiana Jones were finished. It was cutting edge yet kind of hokey, a tribute to classic Disney animation but also designed to shill the latest "Now Available On VHS!" marketing campaigns.

Disneyland's circa 1992 show needed an update to its content and characters, and what they have planned seems wonderful. Disneyland's version had upgraded technology circa 2009 that was already vastly superior to the creaky 1998 version at WDW that is shown in Disney's version of Shamu Stadium. This 2017 remake and reboot should catapult it into some of the best Disney entertainment spectaculars in existence for years to come.

Borrowing the old commercial tagline... It could only happen at Disneyland!
 

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