Families of autistic kids sue Disney parks over policy on lines

[mergatroid]

The old system became a problem because people realized they could claim something like autism. Requiring proof is just not going to happen.

It's a real shame isn't it. I mean let's be honest, what sort of subhuman would it take to claim something like that to beat a queue? We really live in a terrible world and 'society' is just a word to many.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's a real shame isn't it. I mean let's be honest, what sort of subhuman would it take to claim something like that to beat a queue? We really live in a terrible world and 'society' is just a word to many.

Well there are those who hired the tour guides. It also seems that being disabled in certain forms has become trendy and people like the "distinction" that comes with their self-diagnosis.

 

[ParentsOf4]

It's a real shame isn't it. I mean let's be honest, what sort of subhuman would it take to claim something like that to beat a queue? We really live in a terrible world and 'society' is just a word to many.

Don't be too down on society.

Leave $20 on the sidewalk with a name and number. Some will call while others will pocket the bill. Whether it's today or 50 years ago, I suspect the percentage that would call hasn't changed much.

To me, what's really a shame is that ADA wasn't written better in order to avoid being like a $20 bill left on the sidewalk.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't think anyone could seriously argue they need an unlimited fastpass because this is a service Disney does not provide. If Disney did offer unlimited fastpasses then that could draw it into being considered 'reasonable accommodation'.

Fallacy - there is no requirement the accommodation be part of a regular offering available to all guests.

Quoting from the ADA (below), It would be discrimination to offer a service to disabled people that is not provided non-disabled people just because they were disabled.

The part of the law you quote is to dissuade 'separate but equal' setups because the intent of the law is to mainstream the disabled as much as possible. 'separate' is only allowed when modifying the 'normal' is not practical (example.. the subs at DL).

It does not mean providing a service that only the disabled have access too is discrimination.

If I offer electronic shopping carts to assist those in need - I am not required to make electronic shopping carts available to everyone to avoid it being discrimination.

 

[flynnibus]

The term reasonable accommodation is where I usually get confused. For example, if we were talking about the a Post Office or say a shopping mall, to be handicap accessible means that there is infrastructure in place to allow people in wheel chairs or other mobility enhancement devices access without undue duress, such as requiring them to use stairs. No where does it say that in addition to getting access that they be able to skip in front of the checkout line or bypass the lunch rush at Chick-fil-A.

The core of what the plantiffs are arguing applies at Chick-fil-A just as much as at Disney. But the reality is they don't pursue it against those other locations in the same way because it simply doesn't interest the plantiff's... where as the Disney experience does.

The rules are meant to keep handicap people from getting screwed over, but what we are talking about is creating a situation where the handicap actually get more than the non-handicapped

If they get 'more' is immaterial. What matters is if the person's limitations are addressed.

Some believe that as long as the ride is accessible to everyone in the same fashion, then the handicapped and non-handicapped alike are effective getting the exact same experience, i.e. waiting in the same line

Having the same experience for the attraction is the goal.. but experiencing the same pains to get to it is again, immaterial.

 

[mergatroid]

Well there are those who hired the tour guides. It also seems that being disabled in certain forms has become trendy and people like the "distinction" that comes with their self-diagnosis.

Wow here was me suffering with dystonia for the last 39 years of my 45 lived thinking I was different. Turns out I've been a 'trend setter' all these years and not realised

 

[Snowflake82]

A very good point and I agree 100%. That's the reason I think it would be the right thing for Disney to allow autistic children to still use GAC, maybe with a doctors letter as proof etc. Unfortunately it doesn't seem the way they're deciding to go forward.

The old system became a problem because people realized they could claim something like autism. Requiring proof is just not going to happen.

I have no personal expertise in this area, so perhaps I have this completely wrong. But I thought that part of the ADA law says that you cannot require evidence of a disability, but can only ask what accommodations are required by the disabled person. So the policy of not requiring doctors' notes, etc... is due to the law, not Disney's internal policy. (And this has nothing to do with HIPAA, either.)

 

[mergatroid]

I have no personal expertise in this area, so perhaps I have this completely wrong. But I thought that part of the ADA law says that you cannot require evidence of a disability, but can only ask what accommodations are required by the disabled person. So the policy of not requiring doctors' notes, etc... is due to the law, not Disney's internal policy. (And this has nothing to do with HIPAA, either.)

Sorry I have no idea! I know I have a doctors note as when flying I request a seat with the aisle to my right. This is so I can stretch my right arm into the aisle space as my dystonia would make it uncomfortable to not do that over a 9 hour flight. The airlines have always been very accommodating and have let me pre book that seat months in advance for no fee. I was advised to have a doctors note originally in case of any problems when checking in but nobody has ever asked to see it. I have no problem showing this proof if need be and find it strange to think other people would.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I don't have an autistic kid, but I have a child with no patience. He is 20 months old and will have a meltdown if he has to wait a long time for something. He does not understand about wait times and why we are waiting. We do not get special treatment or accommodations. Instead we go earlier in the day or later in the day. We fastpass the attractions that he likes with longer waits than we know will be an issue. It takes planning but works fine. I can imagine with both that it is a reasonable system. It just seems that people need to plan a little more but it still works!

Okay, so you're comparing the temper tantrum of your 20 month old to that of a 12 year old who is the same size as you? The meltdown of a child with autism is far worse than that of your 20 month old. It's more violent, and your child can hurt you. Imagine trying to control your child if he was the same size as you. That's a daily reality for many of us.

That being said, we find with planning that the system does work for my brother. However, it's not ideal for every kid. The sad part is not parents asking for reasonable accomodations. What's sad is that it was abused by those who don't need it so that it makes it more difficult for those who legitimately do.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

There's a difference between waiting and waiting for extended periods.

In practice if not in words, the old GAC was the equivalent of unlimited FP.

Even with FP, TSM and Soarin' were perhaps 10 to 20 minute waits.

However, if it was necessary to wait 120 minutes to check out from a grocery store ...

When it comes to airports, I travel a bit and on more than one occasion have interacted with families with children with autism. I've seen a few meltdowns attributable to autism at airports.

As I understand it, autism is a bit like intelligence in the sense that there is a range of abilities. I've been told that some families dealing with severe cases avoid travel, etc. You won't ever see these families at WDW. Others have no problem waiting but absolutely must keep to a routine, hold onto a familiar object, etc. There simply is no "one size fits all" description.

There's a ton of information on the Internet. You might consider researching the topic and see if it answers your question better.

What's clear is that a number of families with children with autism reporting some of the most joyful moments of their child's life are spent at WDW. There is just "something" about WDW that reaches their child like no other place in the world.

It is, after all, "The Place Where Dreams Come True".

I was going to reply, but you've said this so nicely. Color me impressed

 

[Snowflake82]

Sorry I have no idea! I know I have a doctors note as when flying I request a seat with the aisle to my right. This is so I can stretch my right arm into the aisle space as my dystonia would make it uncomfortable to not do that over a 9 hour flight. The airlines have always been very accommodating and have let me pre book that seat months in advance for no fee. I was advised to have a doctors note originally in case of any problems when checking in but nobody has ever asked to see it. I have no problem showing this proof if need be and find it strange to think other people would.

I agree, it seems logical to me to be prepared to offer a doctor's note when requesting accommodation based on a medical condition. But, as was hammered home earlier today when discussing tax returns with a relative, what seems right or fair and what the law says are often very different things!

Also note, I am making this statement as someone who has not had to deal with traveling with a disabled party member. If I had that experience, I might feel very differently about needing that paperwork and needing to disclose (potentially uncomfortable or embarrassing) information to cast members travel agents, front desk staff, etc...

 

[ParentsOf4]

Okay, so you're comparing the temper tantrum of your 20 month old to that of a 12 year old who is the same size as you?

If I understand ADA correctly, the difference between a tantrum of a typically developing 20-month-old and a tantrum of a 12-year-old with autism is that the tantrum of the 12-year-old could be the result of a disability that is protected by ADA.

If the tantrum is a result of a disability protected by ADA, if that tantrum prevents the person from participating in WDW, and if Disney has the means to provide a reasonable accommodation to eliminate that tantrum, then, per ADA, Disney must provide that accommodation.

ADA does not protect a typically developing child who is having a tantrum.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

Not taking sides here and I haven't read every reply so apologies in advance if this has been discussed before. Do parents take their austistic children to the shops with them and if so do they get served immediately or have to queue? How about checking in at the airport and going through security and then waiting for the plane to board etc? What about going to the cinema, is there immediate access there too. The reason I ask is surely a lawsuit could be lodged agaist these companies too if they don't have a system?

Along with what @ParentsOf4 has said (and he said it extremely well) sometimes at Disney it's that there is so much stimulation that the meltdowns occur more easily. This stimulation can be an excellent thing. We've noticed personally that my younger brother comes back talking more, learns more social skills, and just improves leaps and bounds after being in WDW or DL. This also leads to an occasional meltdown. Whether the benefits and the fun outweigh the possibility for a meltdown and/or the severity of a meltdown is a personal decision that every family must make for themselves.

And you are correct that it can happen elsewhere (honestly, I don't think this case will get very far, but continuing on...). We've had it happen at the airport. You can ask for a pre-boarding sleeve if you think it's necessary (For instance, since Southwest has an open seating policy, one of us will board with my brother early if we're not in the first group to make sure we are seated with him and so he doesn't get anxious). We've had it happen while waiting for the plane to take off where he's gotten anxious and we've had to calm him down. Again, it's up to the parents to decide if their child can handle that.

Sometimes it's also common sense. I always take my younger brother to an early movie showing so that we don't have to fight for seats, wait long to get tickets, or wait long for it to start. If I thought that it might be a problem, I would buy the tickets before going. We would never go to WDW during an extremely crowded period. In January, my parents take him out of school (which the school is fine with; the skills he learns there outweigh one week's worth of class material, especially since he's rarely sick anyway) and we go in August when it's less crowded. We also don't take him shopping when it's particularly crowded and if we can do our shopping without him, we do. It's mostly about parents knowing their kids.

 

[mergatroid]

Along with what @ParentsOf4 has said (and he said it extremely well) sometimes at Disney it's that there is so much stimulation that the meltdowns occur more easily. This stimulation can be an excellent thing. We've noticed personally that my younger brother comes back talking more, learns more social skills, and just improves leaps and bounds after being in WDW or DL. This also leads to an occasional meltdown. Whether the benefits and the fun outweigh the possibility for a meltdown and/or the severity of a meltdown is a personal decision that every family must make for themselves.

And you are correct that it can happen elsewhere (honestly, I don't think this case will get very far, but continuing on...). We've had it happen at the airport. You can ask for a pre-boarding sleeve if you think it's necessary (For instance, since Southwest has an open seating policy, one of us will board with my brother early if we're not in the first group to make sure we are seated with him and so he doesn't get anxious). We've had it happen while waiting for the plane to take off where he's gotten anxious and we've had to calm him down. Again, it's up to the parents to decide if their child can handle that.

Sometimes it's also common sense. I always take my younger brother to an early movie showing so that we don't have to fight for seats, wait long to get tickets, or wait long for it to start. If I thought that it might be a problem, I would buy the tickets before going. We would never go to WDW during an extremely crowded period. In January, my parents take him out of school (which the school is fine with; the skills he learns there outweigh one week's worth of class material, especially since he's rarely sick anyway) and we go in August when it's less crowded. We also don't take him shopping when it's particularly crowded and if we can do our shopping without him, we do. It's mostly about parents knowing their kids.

Thanks for answering those question and it's great that your younger brother has such a fantastic family helping him enjoy his life as best as they can. It sounds like you've worked around many problems yourself to try to make things run as smoothly as possible. This whole lawsuit thing is too complex for me to take in, who is right and who is wrong. I can see arguments from both sides and as usual on here some people take opinions too personally and arguments ensue. Other times people are just downright rude to one another but it's great when we can debate issues such as this in a civilised way like we're doing.

I reallty hope your family can continue to take your younger brother to the parks and I hope the new rules don't spoil it too much for you or him. It seems like you plan ahead really well anyway and I wish you all the vey best in your future Disney trips. It's great it helps his condition and long may that continue.

All the very best.

 

[RSoxNo1]

My parents have brought my brother to the park when he couldn't handle the stimulation. This predated Fastpass and GAC. You know what they did? They brought him back to the hotel.

 

[BigTxEars]

My parents have brought my brother to the park when he couldn't handle the stimulation. This predated Fastpass and GAC. You know what they did? They brought him back to the hotel.

Old School!

 

[flynnibus]

If the tantrum is a result of a disability protected by ADA, if that tantrum prevents the person from participating in WDW, and if Disney has the means to provide a reasonable accommodation to eliminate that tantrum, then, per ADA, Disney must provide that accommodation.

I know this isn't where you were going with the tantrum example.. but I'll leap off of it. I really want to see the court pass judgement that on 'upsetting' someone as part of their disability. Is it really the scope of the law to keep a handicapped child from lashing out and biting people? Or becoming violent? It's an interesting angle.. because are those actions part of the disability, or the way the person copes? Are they simply associated, or are they integral?

Its my opinion, the law should not be interpreted to require people accommodate behavior that in itself would be construed to be unsustainable or disruptive in public places.

 

[WDW1974]

I know this isn't where you were going with the tantrum example.. but I'll leap off of it. I really want to see the court pass judgement that on 'upsetting' someone as part of their disability. Is it really the scope of the law to keep a handicapped child from lashing out and biting people? Or becoming violent? It's an interesting angle.. because are those actions part of the disability, or the way the person copes? Are they simply associated, or are they integral?

Its my opinion, the law should not be interpreted to require people accommodate behavior that in itself would be construed to be unsustainable or disruptive in public places.

Since I am waiting on someone now, I'll wade back into this because I think you bring up an interesting point.

Violent behavior under the autism spectrum of disorders. Well, what if you are just psychologically unbalanced and prone to violence and beating up women and abusing children? And you have a medical diagnosis? Does that suddenly free you to act out in society because the illness ... the condition ... is making you do so? And does a company like Disney have to accommodate you because you didn't chose to be a violent psycho anymore than a violent autistic 12-year-old did?

I think you can see where I am going with this ... it can be taken to an absurd level.

Disney has been more than fair. They still are. If their new system means some people can't go, well, then there are shorter lines for the rest of us!

I am sure this will be fun ... now to attempt some Saturday night fun of my own (not overly optimistic but you never know!)

 

[RSoxNo1]

Since I am waiting on someone now, I'll wade back into this because I think you bring up an interesting point.

Violent behavior under the autism spectrum of disorders. Well, what if you are just psychologically unbalanced and prone to violence and beating up women and abusing children? And you have a medical diagnosis? Does that suddenly free you to act out in society because the illness ... the condition ... is making you do so? And does a company like Disney have to accommodate you because you didn't chose to be a violent psycho anymore than a violent autistic 12-year-old did?

I think you can see where I am going with this ... it can be taken to an absurd level.

Disney has been more than fair. They still are. If their new system means some people can't go, well, then there are shorter lines for the rest of us!

I am sure this will be fun ... now to attempt some Saturday night fun of my own (not overly optimistic but you never know!)

There are people I have witnessed on the autism spectrum that very well may enjoy Disney World very much, but I wouldn't recommend them visiting. My brother certainly has behavioral issues but it manifests itself in hitting one of us, hitting himself or otherwise acting inappropriately. On our trip to Disneyland last summer, we nearly brought him back to the hotel after a long wait at Splash Mountain. I think the reason we didn't was because we were waiting in a shaded area that wasn't super crowded. He was being inappropriate but it was relatively secluded.

 

[rob0519]

A very good point and I agree 100%. That's the reason I think it would be the right thing for Disney to allow autistic children to still use GAC, maybe with a doctors letter as proof etc. Unfortunately it doesn't seem the way they're deciding to go forward.

Disney will not go the way of accepting a medical diagnosis or Doctor's note to continue allowing people to use the old GAC program or some other minimal waiting process because of the HIPA laws. That has been been beaten to death and will not change. I'm not sure however if putting the disabled person's picture on a form stating they have some type of disability is very private. From the comments of other posters though, there seems to be a dire need for some training and consistency from the cast members at Guest Relations who issue the DAS.

You said "it would be the right thing for Disney to allow autistic children to still use GAC". This entire tread and other threads already closed seem to be focusing on this one medical diagnosis where there is a myriad of other illnesses that affect both children and adults who did and could still benefit from the assistance offered by the old GAC. True autism is a potentially very disabling neurological condition, but so are many other conditions. By constantly limiting the discussion to autistic children and their meltdowns, I fear we risk narrowing the scope of which people should receive some type of assistance.

Perhaps there is still room for compromise with the DAS. Would it be so terrible if the return times were changed to 50% of the wait time? A two hour wait becomes an hour. A 90 minute wait becomes 45 minutes. An hour wait becomes 30 minutes. A 45 minute wait becomes a 20 minute wait. Any standby line under 45 minutes gets immediate access. This would provide some relief to the afflicted individual, their parents or caregivers and should still satisfy the hardcore "it's not fair those disabled people get to ride before we do" crowd.