Families of autistic kids sue Disney parks over policy on lines

[ParentsOf4]

That brings up another point... how do we know what part of any measurable difference in wait times is due to DAS and what is due to FP+? IMO, FP+ impacts more people directly, and therefore probably has the biggest overall impact if anything, but that's just a hunch.

Per the posts from @xyz123, Disney keeps track of the number of GAC users. They know what percentage of ride capacity is being used by GAC and DAS users.

I'm not sure this is a line of defense Disney wants to pursue: "People were waiting an extra 12 minutes on Peter Pan because of the Guest Assistance Card".

Yes, and they wait several minutes for scooters getting on the bus, longer if they miss the bus because scooters are given preferential access.

Exactly how does waiting an extra X minutes make GAC an unreasonable accommodation?

Remember, the "reasonable accommodation" standard within ADA applies to the private company, not other patrons.

As @flynnibus writes here, "If they get 'more' is immaterial. What matters is if the person's limitations are addressed."

Non-disabled guests might think it unfair that they have to wait an extra X minutes each day to accommodate truly disabled guests but I don't think a judge will.

Instead, a judge will ask whether the disabled guests' disability is being sufficiently accommodated by DAS. For me, this is the crux of the legal argument. Everything else is a sideshow that, IMHO, has little bearing on the case.

 

[cw1982]

Per the posts from @xyz123, Disney keeps track of the number of GAC users.

I'm not sure this is a line of defense Disney wants to pursue: "People were waiting an extra 12 minutes on Peter Pan because of the Guest Assistance Card".

Yes, and they wait several minutes for scooters getting on the bus, longer if they miss the bus because scooters are given preferential access.

Exactly has does waiting an extra X minutes make GAC an unreasonable accommodation?

Remember, the "reasonable accommodation" standard within ADA applies to the private company, not other patrons.

As @flynnibus writes here, "If they get 'more' is immaterial. What matters is if the person's limitations are addressed."

Non-disabled guests might think it unfair that they have to wait an extra X minutes each day to accommodate truly disabled guests but I don't think a judge will.

Instead, a judge will ask whether the disabled guests' disability is being sufficiently accommodated by DAS. For me, this is the crux of the legal argument. Everything else is a sideshow that, IMHO, has little bearing on the case.

Oh I agree. It's just that, with two new systems rolling out at once, IMO it would be pretty close to impossible to discern exactly which changes are a result of which system, if one was to sit around and try to make that distinction.

And, the whole thought is borderline off topic, and I agree would definitely not be a good argument for Disney to pursue... even if it's logical, it's not a good argument in terms of a defense on this case.

Feel free to completely disregard my veer into left field; it was more of a random speculation than a suggestion of anything, and was definitely not intended to imply that I think Disney should try to use that data in their defense.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Not sure what you mean by extra slots.

I believe FP+ wasn't rolled out to all onsite guests until October 2013, the same month Disney cut over to DAS. Before that FP+ was in limited test.

But during Christmas 2013, both old Fastpass and Fastpass+ were in use at the same time, so if anything, there were at the very least the same number of Fastpasses as before, but possibly more.

If there were fewer rides being taken up by GAC/DAS users then those rides could be offered as FP+. Just speculation. I think Disney wants as many FP+ slots as they can get. It's the Carrot that gets the magic band on the arms.

GAC was never "taking away Fastpass availability". Rather, it was operating in addition to it under the assumption that not that many people would be using it, especially not 1 out of every 5 people riding. While I'm sure Fastpass+ was a major motivator to finally initiate this policy change that everyone from the ground up had been demanding for years, but it wasn't the only reason for it.

 

[bubbles1812]

But we did wait in line with special needs kids a lot of time and you can't ask them to wait in line with the regular crowd that's not fair to the parents of these kids...its brutal hard work to keep them focused from what i've seen. The new policy is pretty much like regular fast passes but they can't tell you no i think..even if they are all used up for the day. Let the people with disabilities be treated like kings for a day i don't mind an extra 5 minute wait to help a kid facing difficulties have a perfect day. But to sue disney is crazy...there is nowhere on earth more catered to disadvantaged people

The unfortunate problem with this is that there has to be some sort of line drawn. ADA is supposed to ensure equal treatment, not "more than" treatment. I certainly don't mind waiting an extra five minutes for a kid... but then what happens when there is 2, 4, 10, 20? That 5 extra minutes per kid starts to add up to the point where general guest experience is significantly impacted. That's the difficult part. I've seen how hard it can be for kids (and adults) with disabilities in the work I do, and how hard their families/caregivers ext can have it in turn. I do want those with disabilities to get a fair shake. But as paying consumers, we all do. It's hard to know where the balance lies.

I agree that suing Disney is just plain crazy. They are required to be compliant with the law, no more, no less (though they have usually opted for more). As far as I can tell, they are. And some of the complaints in the suit just seem so ludicrous that any valid points the families may have (because the system isn't perfect by any means) just gets lost in the shuffle. The one about Disney maliciously deciding to do all this, and how all the CMs have apparently decided en mass to stop being kind to the disabled and their families was especially laughable.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I'm just appalled that we live in a society where people will use any justification to not stand in line.

 

[Cesar R M]

OK, so a WDW E ticket attraction but not at MK.

Times you reported for December 27:

12/27/2012 62 12/27/2013 39​

Times reported by touringplans.com for the same days:

Epcot
Living w/ Land: 27 min vs. 17 min
Mission space Orange: 66 min vs. 50 min
Soarin': 130 min vs. 98 min
Spaceship Earth: 36 min vs. 30 min
Test Track: 139 min vs. 86 min

DHS
Great Movie Ride: 26 min vs. 23 min
RnRC: 105 min vs. 89 min
Star Tours: 50 min vs. 40 min
Tower of Terror: 92 min vs. 78 min
Toy Story Mania: 119 min vs. 111 min

DAK
Dinosaur: 48 min vs. 55 min
Expedition Everest: 68 min vs. 47 min
Kali: 13 min vs. 19 min
K. Safaris: 75 min vs. 44 min
Primeval Whirl: 39 min vs. 35 min​

So, touringplans.com generally reports trends similar to the one you report. Numerous wait times decreased significantly, some even dramatically.

However, in an extensive analysis of 2013 vs. 2014 wait times in the months February and March, touringplans.com reports no such dramatic reduction in wait times.

I wonder why wait times were so different one year to the next for Christmas week, but not for the months of February and March?

Did Christmas 2012 attract a disproportionately large number of GAC users but spring break 2013 did not?

Does anyone have another explanation?

maybe its due of temperatures?
people with disabilities or illness are more prone to get affected by hot temps?

 

[matt9112]

my two cents hinges on the fact that there are things required to enjoy some things....waiting is part of the theme park experience...
we have become a society where every special interest "minority" is put ahead of the rest, we sacrifice productivity,efficiency,pleasure all on behalf of disproportionately smaller groups

 

[matt9112]

It's a real shame isn't it. I mean let's be honest, what sort of subhuman would it take to claim something like that to beat a queue? We really live in a terrible world and 'society' is just a word to many.

apparently more than you would think because the GAC went away...

 

[flynnibus]

Disney will not go the way of accepting a medical diagnosis or Doctor's note to continue allowing people to use the old GAC program or some other minimal waiting process because of the HIPA laws. That has been been beaten to death and will not change

What has been beated to death is this inaccuracy that 'proof' has anything to do with HIPAA laws!!

Let's bookmark this..

Why does this have nothing to do with HIPAA? Because HIPAA is SPECIFICALLY about handling of medical information BY MEDICAL PROVIDERS AND HEALTH PLANS - not 'everyone'

Who is Covered by the Privacy Rule

The Privacy Rule, as well as all the Administrative Simplification rules, apply to health plans, health care clearinghouses, and to any health care provider who transmits health information in electronic form in connection with transactions for which the Secretary of HHS has adopted standards under HIPAA (the “covered entities”). For help in determining whether you are covered, use CMS's decision tool.

Source: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/

Hopefully it doesn't take another cite to explain that a theme park operator is not a health plan provider, health care clearing house, or health care provider (sans any specific operations relative to first aid).

So, why can't Disney require proof? Because of the ADA itself.

The ADA does not empower public accommodations to require proof before providing an accommodation. The ADA specifically forbids setting up processes that would discriminate against the disabled.

§ 36.204 Administrative methods.
A public accommodation shall not, directly or through contractual or other arrangements, utilize standards or criteria or methods of administration that have the effect of discriminating on the basis of disability, or that perpetuate the discrimination of others who are subject to common administrative control.

This is the general footing that prevents businesses from setting up systems that would be used to filter or discourage the disabled from participating. Businesses also have to comply with

§ 36.201 General.

• (a) Prohibition of discrimination. No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any private entity who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation.

Which means... Businesses have to ensure they do NOT exclude a disabled person based on their disability. Requiring some paperwork would create a barrier to participation that would deny participation to someone who has a disability, but does not have the paperwork to confirm it. They are not REQUIRED to provide that paperwork, so if you were to deny them accommodation without it, you would have denied that person participation based on their disability.. and hence discriminated against them violating the clause above.

THIS is why businesses do not require proof of a disability - because the disabled are not required to provide it and if you were to decline accommodation to someone who had a legitimate disability -- they would be in violation.

So why ask for proof when you can't actually use it as a filter?

Disney takes it further and declines looking at the information at all to ensure a 'CYA' position that ensures no one can go back and claim they did something less based on the information they were given.

 

[flynnibus]

Violent behavior under the autism spectrum of disorders. Well, what if you are just psychologically unbalanced and prone to violence and beating up women and abusing children? And you have a medical diagnosis? Does that suddenly free you to act out in society because the illness ... the condition ... is making you do so? And does a company like Disney have to accommodate you because you didn't chose to be a violent psycho anymore than a violent autistic 12-year-old did?

One could argue that the said condition would be covered by the ADA.. so you would be 'disabled' in that sense and entitled to accommodations to ensure your equal and integrated participation. But what kind of accommodation would be available would still have to be balanced by the protections the business has.. against 'undue burden' and 'readily achievable' to define what is reasonable.

I think you can see where I am going with this ... it can be taken to an absurd level.

WHO is covered... yes. But what consequence it requires does have checks and balances. The problem is its up to the courts and DoJ to decide that and their history over the last 20+ years has not been in favor of common sense IMO.

 

[Mommy2cooper]

ugh that's what I get for reading half the story and trying to skim though the thread....smh. I knew that when I first read it but my mind had a lapse and was somewhere else for the rest of my post. I guess it was wondering towards Disney since I leave soon! It was the whole point of how I wrote we'd go somewhere while we wait. LOL OPPS

 

[DrummerAlly]

People say but my child can't wait in line, or handle confined spaces. One question. How did you get to Disney? Car, Plane or Bus. All which make you stay in one place for an extended amount of time and even be in a small space. A queue is not a small space. If we are discussing the child having a severe disability issue, Why are you at the busiest place on earth torturing your child? Don't you think you are being selfish and you have no idea the effect this is having on your child. My autistic cousin doesn't speak and you can tell how he behaves if there is too much going on around us and we immediately change the environment for him. Disney is not a place for him.

I'm going to admit that I only read the first 6 pages of this thread. There are lots of great anecdotes and stories and discussion. While the GAC was an imperfect and abused solution I think the new DAS (DAC? I already forgot the acronym) is a decent and probably mostly legal solution. Hopefully they'll find a way to improve it like allowing users to reserve more FP+ times or placing special kiosks in the parks so that they don't have to walk up to the ride.

Let me answer your questions though, Goofnut1980:

My daughter is 1.5 and has anxiety and sensory processing disorder, which manifests itself similarly to children with ASD. The symptoms and cause are similar though they are different disorders.

"One question. How did you get to Disney? Car, Plane or Bus. All which make you stay in one place for an extended amount of time and even be in a small space." We haven't been to Disney since she was 3 months old, but even then she had symptoms of SPD, though we didn't know it. The plane was a disaster, she screamed from the sensory input. I was that person you hated in the airport with the screaming, wailing child. I had no idea that it would be so horrible for her, if we had, I wouldn't have done it. We don't go in confined places for extended periods of time. I panic if we have to - I plan toys, nap times, snacks, anything that I think might pacify here. It will sadly be a while for us before we can go to WDW again, but I hope we can. Many children with ASD and SPD have great vacations there and I hope my daughter will be one of them. I don't know if we'll need a disabled assistance card when we do, but if we can tour without it will certainly will.

Someone else later asked later about how we tolerate grocery stores and why they shouldn't be held to this as well. I always order my groceries through Pea Pod Pick Up ahead of time and have them bring them out to my car for me so that I don't have to bring her in. It's a life saving accommodation for me. She often does fine in the grocery store, but if its crowded or noisy, she panics and now I'm running through the store with a screaming toddler. Yes, you can give your screaming toddler cheese from the deli counter and make them happy, but that little trick doesn't work with kids who are melting down because they can't process everything they're experiencing. In the event that we do have to go into a store, I structure my day so that we are there during the least crowded times and pray it goes well.

I only bring up these two things to illustrate how parents of disabled children constantly have to re-think how they do everything in their lives. It's stressful. If Disney can provide a slightly less stressful week to a family who has a child with ASD and it makes my wait time 2 minutes longer, fine. There are a few problems with the new system and the old system was terribly abused, sure. It sounds like the new system needs a few tweaks to work for everyone.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

Did Christmas 2012 attract a disproportionately large number of GAC users but spring break 2013 did not?

Does anyone have another explanation?

Spring Break is never a good way to gauge it because spring break for all intents and purposes does not exist for Disney the way it used to, even though Disney likes to act like it still does (hence all the blockouts around Easter every year).

The fact is most schools across the country do not necessarily take their spring break either the week before or after Easter. Now pretty much the entire months of March and April any given week is someone's spring break. So instead of a high crowd period concentrated over 2 weeks, it's spread out over two months.

Christmas-New Years is pretty much the only 100% guaranteed peak busy season every single year.

 

[WDWLover#1]

Where is it that you obtained this knowledge of Disney's excellent catering to guests with disabilities? Is it from personal experience with a disabled family member or reading the posts of people who have no disabilities in their family? They used to be excellent, now they are much closer to average.

How have they changed to average? Is it because of das? I've put my opinion and I still agree with my point. Just putting it out there ya know. That's just what I've heard from disabled people who visit the parks. (now off topic of the discussion)But I think there's a point for all of us where we should stop arguing about whether or not Disney caters for disabled guests well. Unless I'm disabled I will never know what it is like. And I don't know whether it's fair or not to have a argument about it because of our position within the case. We can just give opinions not facts unless we have experienced being disabled. We'll never know what it feels like.

 

[WDWLover#1]

I'm just appalled that we live in a society where people will use any justification to not stand in line.

Yeah like that story about the Manhattan mums who were buying disabled guests to pose as a member of the family so they could get front of line access. That shocked me. One was quoted saying "this is how the 1% of us vacation". The things I would do if I met someone who thought like that. That's why das was introduced. And it's sad because some kids I know of who are down syndrome cant wait for more than 20 mins otherwise it gets a bit uncontrollable. That's when thats when the parents would use it-only if the line was less than 20 min. Because they knew that's how their child was and how he can cope. I know they find das fine but it appals me that because of certain people this whole thing with das has had to happen.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

Perhaps there is still room for compromise with the DAS. Would it be so terrible if the return times were changed to 50% of the wait time? A two hour wait becomes an hour. A 90 minute wait becomes 45 minutes. An hour wait becomes 30 minutes. A 45 minute wait becomes a 20 minute wait. Any standby line under 45 minutes gets immediate access. This would provide some relief to the afflicted individual, their parents or caregivers and should still satisfy the hardcore "it's not fair those disabled people get to ride before we do" crowd.

So implement different system depending on what you call your disability? I think that would fall apart instantly.
Anyway, the point of the legislation is to provide 'access' to the same facilities that a non disabled person can experience, not to provide preferential treatment.

Also your proposed system doesn't meet the wants of the plaintiff, they want instance access, unlimited use pastpass - not too wait up to an hour.

Most people are not going to have issue with truly disabled person gaining some preferential treatment, however the moment you have such a system then people start abusing it. At the scale Disney operates at, the level of abuse become untenable.

So to answer your question, would it be so terrible to half waiting times for DAS holders? Categorically YES.

 

[rob0519]

How have they changed to average? Is it because of das? I've put my opinion and I still agree with my point. Just putting it out there ya know. That's just what I've heard from disabled people who visit the parks. (now off topic of the discussion)But I think there's a point for all of us where we should stop arguing about whether or not Disney caters for disabled guests well. Unless I'm disabled I will never know what it is like. And I don't know whether it's fair or not to have a argument about it because of our position within the case. We can just give opinions not facts unless we have experienced being disabled. We'll never know what it feels like.

I will agree with you that this continued argument / debate over the new policy is pointless. It will not change anything. Disney is a private company and can set whatever policies they deem appropriate to provide access for the disabled as long as it is within the law of ADA. We as consumers can either learn to deal with the new DAS or choose to vacation elsewhere. No two people suffering from neurological issues react to the kind of stimuli a wonderful and busy place like WDW produces. Therefore it would be impossible to create a system that is completely fair to or that would work for everyone.

Our son loves WDW. We've been taking him there for over 20 years, so on our next visit we will experience DAS for the first time and figure out how to make it work the best it can for us.

Now, back to the comment about Disney becoming average:
When used as an adjective, average means "typical; common; ordinary". So, yes, Disney has become average in providing access to disabled individuals because of DAS. They now provide, more or less, the same access that other amusement parks provide. It's common across much of amusement parks industry or "average".

To a disabled person, Disney used to be well above average by providing, in some cases, what everyone is calling the "GAC / Unlimted Pastpass". Was it a welcome relief to to parents and caretakers struggling with disabled children and adults (which includes my family)? Sure it was. Was it abused by individuals scamming the system? Sure it was. Eventually, the scammers had a huge roll in getting the GAC discontinued and bringing the policy backwards to average. Everyone, disabled and non-disabled, now waits about the same time. The only difference is where one has to spend that time waiting.

 

[rob0519]

So implement different system depending on what you call your disability? I think that would fall apart instantly.
Anyway, the point of the legislation is to provide 'access' to the same facilities that a non disabled person can experience, not to provide preferential treatment.

Also your proposed system doesn't meet the wants of the plaintiff, they want instance access, unlimited use pastpass - not too wait up to an hour.

Most people are not going to have issue with truly disabled person gaining some preferential treatment, however the moment you have such a system then people start abusing it. At the scale Disney operates at, the level of abuse become untenable.

So to answer your question, would it be so terrible to half waiting times for DAS holders? Categorically YES.

Ok, I'm missing your point. In one sentence you say the law does not provide for preferential treatment and in another sentence you say most people are not going to have an issue with truly disabled people getting some preferential treatment. Which side are you taking?

I really don't care what the plaintiffs want. The public, my family included, has to deal with the policy currently in place. If the non-disabled want some form of "fairness" by the disabled not having instant access, I don't see how waiting half as long is that terrible. Sometimes a little compromise goes a long way. That is only my opinion.

 

[rct247]

The thing that gets me is that everyone goes through life having to wait no matter who you are or what situation you are in. Whether you are waiting for your food to be cook, the traffic light to change, to arrive in a car at your destination, in line at the grocery store, for your turn to ride a ride at a theme park, to see the dentist, for a movie to come out, for a house to be built, for a baby to be born, or even waiting for a new heart for a transplant. We all do waiting. Not everything is instant, and no one enjoys waiting.

My real question for those who do have challenges with their autistic children and waiting is how are they going to be prepared for the rest of their life? People with all kinds of disabilities meet challenges everyday, but in many cases they meet these challenges dead on. Just as ADD/ADHD kids have grown into ADD/ADHD adults, autistic children will eventually be autistic adults. They may still need people to care for them and keep things stable in their life, but waiting is challenge that should be tackled. It is relatively minor when you think of all the other challenges and obstacles they might face, and on top of that, not all situations do have options to avoid or get instant gratification/access.

Those who do have children on the autism spectrum are also probably helping their children go through therapies too. Many of these therapies, professional or natural parenting, include working on speech, social skills, and understanding. As these children age into adults, they also start to learn more about other life skills. While not all autistic children grow up to be independent or even able to be independent, it should no less be a goal. Waiting is honestly a social skill that should be learned. While I'm not accusing anyone of being a bad parent, I do feel that those that support this lawsuit might be taking the easy way out. Instant access/instant gratification to avoid meltdowns, physical violence, and stress might solve the issue right then and there, but it really doesn't begin to solve the overall issue to get similar situations to a manageable state now or in the future.

The DAS card isn't perfect. It isn't as gracious as a GAC card was, but those are not coming back. Period. No matter what policy is put into place (including GAC), it won't fit everyone's needs. That's just might thoughts on it.

 

[flynnibus]

The thing that gets me is that everyone goes through life having to wait no matter who you are or what situation you are in. Whether you are waiting for your food to be cook, the traffic light to change, to arrive in a car at your destination, in line at the grocery store, for your turn to ride a ride at a theme park, to see the dentist, for a movie to come out, for a house to be built, for a baby to be born, or even waiting for a new heart for a transplant. We all do waiting. Not everything is instant, and no one enjoys waiting.

Using your logic... we could say the same thing about Walking. Just replace 'waiting' with 'walking' in your paragraph. So lets tell all those lazy people to get out of those chairs, stop denying life and start walking!

Oh wait.. you mean they CAN'T walk... because of some disability they have? Oh yeah, that's the some position these people are in too (per their claim). Waiting isn't a inconvenience - it's something they are claiming they can not do.

So either discredit the medical limitation... or accept it. It's not about 'convenience'.

The DAS card isn't perfect. It isn't as gracious as a GAC card was, but those are not coming back. Period. No matter what policy is put into place (including GAC), it won't fit everyone's needs. That's just might thoughts on it.

The answer is easy... if it doesn't fit 'everyones' needs, simply be flexible. Disney has gone too rigid