News EPCOT's Harmonious to be replaced with new nighttime spectacular Luminous

[jrhwdw]

It is my understanding that the Reflections of Earth was taken backstage and destroyed. However,...I would give my left arm to see it it's theme re-made into brand new hardware and have Gavin write a new score that carries the RoE thoughts further.

Read this...it will blow your mind.....

"On it [Earth] everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

It was told to me by a person involved with the creation of RoE that THIS is literally the exact concept that was used as THE actual premise of RoE back in 1999.

How could a light and happy "Harmonious" show with nothing really to say....ever compete with this incredibly powerful RoE "meaningful" concept that applies to every single living creature on Earth?

I always feel that Harmonious and it's "When you find out who your are,...you'll find out what you need" message is not a good one. I feel like Harmonious "celebrates" division and sub division and sub-sub division and sub-sub-sub division of people and their identity.

Reflections of Earth is more the other way. It UNIFIES not just "people" and "cultures" but of all life on this crazy rock floating in space. We are all together on this thing and we are all one. (Humans, animals, plants, bacteria, etc....all life)

Everything that lives also dies....and we go on.....

Hard to do sometimes..........

 

[The Colonel]

IRoE was the apex of Disney culture and creativity. The current cast of characters are not capable of even coming close to it. Crass, vulgar, cloyingly cute and sentimental, commercial, with attention deficit disorder- that's the future.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Thank you for your perspective. Despite what some other posters apparently assume, I genuinely appreciate your thoughts. I was talking directly about the tech itself. There's no doubt it has some cool features. My disappointment there was that they used it all right up front. So I kinda felt like all the tricks were shown. I just prefer the build where new tricks come out as the show goes on. And I appreciate hearing why you enjoyed the tech side of it.

@eddie104 I in no way discount that I dislike the show. That doesn't mean I can't talk show tech and usage and listen to other perspectives. I am able to hold both conversations at the same time, even. I appreciate that he had no need to explain (as none of us do, frankly) and instead chose to.

I was trying to think of the tech, but maybe more broadly - like how the tech got used for different effects, different music notes, etc

I do get what you are saying if thinking specifically like the mechanics of the barges and not slowly revealing new features but sort of showing all they can do largely from the start

 

[Vinnie Mac]

It is my understanding that the Reflections of Earth hardware was taken backstage and destroyed. However,...I would give my left arm to see it it's basic theme re-made with brand new hardware and have Gavin write a new score that carries the RoE thoughts further.

Read this...it will blow your mind.....

"On it [Earth] everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

It was told to me by a person involved with the creation of RoE that THIS paragraph is literally the exact concept that was used as THE actual basic premise of RoE back in 1999.

In my humble opinion...how could a light and happy "Harmonious" show with nothing really to say....ever compete with this incredibly powerful RoE "meaningful" concept that applies to every single living creature on Earth?

I always feel that Harmonious and it's "When you find out who your are,...you'll find out what you need" message is not a positive or constructive one. I feel like Harmonious "celebrates" division and sub division and sub-sub division and sub-sub-sub division of people focuses way too much on their "identity".

Reflections of Earth is more the other way. It UNIFIES everything and everybody...not just "people" and "cultures" but of all life on this crazy rock floating in space. We are all together on this thing and we are all one. (Humans, animals, plants, bacteria, etc....all life)

Everything that lives also must die....and we go on.....

That is incredible. I love hearing about the thought process behind Illuminations. My mind was blown when I learned about the whole 20 torches thing and how each represented a finished century.

I think the problem with Harmonious is that it is still meaningful, but it is as meaningful as its predecessor. I love Harmonious, in fact I'm arguably one of the biggest advocates for it on these boards, but one thing I've always believed is that Harmonious' biggest downfall was its lack of story and deeper meaning.

I don't necessarily think Harmonious promotes division. I think there is a difference between separating our differences and then celebrating cultural differences. Harmonious colorfully highlights and celebrates musical and visual elements of different cultures and then at the end brings it all together. During the Someday segment, you can hear the different voices singing it together which to me signifies the point in the show where the cultures have now been brought together to share the promise of "Someday". Not nearly a deep as Illuminations but I think it's somewhat appropriately meaningful for an EPCOT show.

 

[gerarar]

During the Someday segment, you can hear the different voices singing it together which to me signifies the point in the show where the cultures have now been brought together to share the promise of "Someday". Not nearly a deep as Illuminations but I think it's somewhat appropriately meaningful for an EPCOT show.

For some reason this didn't really click for me until I saw the D+ special. Seeing all the different singers gather for the finale and sing "Someday" made the theme of the song more truthy, in message and in practice.

Andddd that's why I've been addicted to the last 3 mins of the show for months now, lol. I think it's just so beautiful – visually and in message. Just wish the previous 15 mins was held to that standard.

 

[stuart]

It was interesting watching this in person for the first time in July. As has been well said now, there just isn't the same connection really. The best part is the finale; Someday as it works well.

The rest, as has been said before, is a clip show. You get the distinct feel that a group of people were given a couple minutes each, blinkered and prevented from seeing what the people working on the section before and after were doing so it flowed better. Not to mention that it doesn't belong.

Talking of being blinkered, I thought I might have my RoE ones on, but even my mother and sister were both of the opinion it was not as good as RoE. We all commented we enjoyed Enchantment more.

There are ways to bring in IP, if they must since it's been fine without for all these years, with pieces of original instrumental reworking of score - a bit like IllumiNations 25/98 with the music choices.

I really was taken aback when they announced it was being binned. Talk about a damp squib. Two, really, in a way, with Enchantment. I do wonder at what point the 'right folks, the game's a bogey' call was made.

I mean, to have a centre piece that isn't visible from places taking good money for expensive packages is beyond comprehension.

Personally, I would like to see the IllumiNations name return: it's synonymous with the park. Part of me would also like to see them return to the country by country introduction as well.

It would be good if this was the debut of the flixels and some smart firework and laser effects you can only see there. Not to mention, keeping a surprise for the end as with the earth barge.

Steve's post early on is most encouraging. Perhaps they realised if it worked for so long given IP heavy spectacles at MK and MGM, there must be a reason.

 

[Cliff]

That is incredible. I love hearing about the thought process behind Illuminations. My mind was blown when I learned about the whole 20 torches thing and how each represented a finished century.

I think the problem with Harmonious is that it is still meaningful, but it is as meaningful as its predecessor. I love Harmonious, in fact I'm arguably one of the biggest advocates for it on these boards, but one thing I've always believed is that Harmonious' biggest downfall was its lack of story and deeper meaning.

I don't necessarily think Harmonious promotes division. I think there is a difference between separating our differences and then celebrating cultural differences. Harmonious colorfully highlights and celebrates musical and visual elements of different cultures and then at the end brings it all together. During the Someday segment, you can hear the different voices singing it together which to me signifies the point in the show where the cultures have now been brought together to share the promise of "Someday". Not nearly a deep as Illuminations but I think it's somewhat appropriately meaningful for an EPCOT show.

There is soooo much more to Reflections of Earth that many people just dont know. Soooooooo much....and we are going to see a LOT more about this show in the future. By next summer, we are all going to learn quite a bit more about it and the concept and creation of the show. ;-)

Harmonious has a good heart. It "tries" it's hardest to help and say good message. I know it was made with best intentions. I have no question about that. I just think that it follows a basic theory that "identity".. or,..."who" society identifies with or "what" society identifies with is very a very "important" factor. I think the is heavily flawed.

"I" personally would love to see society reach a state where "identity" is NOT something we celebrate or condemn any longer. I would rather see what everybody identifies with as being....well?....just NOT important any more. Human beings are ALL inherently the same and we should ALL "identify" with THAT idea instead and not divide, sub divide and sub, sub divide and "classify" and assign all of these "labels" and "tags" to people and make it sound "glorious!!" and "wonderful!!" that we are doing that stuff.

Harmonious means well. I get it....but it's message doesn't actually achieve what it tries to do. I feel we need to move WAY higher then that stuff and see a much bigger picture of what ALL of humanity actually is.

 

[sunshine]

The barges are horrible and ruin Epcot's atmosphere. I'm rarely a complainer, but I posted this over a year ago on a different thread and I feel this even more strongly now that the barges have been there for a while:

Epcot's appeal includes perfectly manicured gardens, elaborate architecture, escapism, and then... a giant, ugly, oil rig eyesore in the middle? Come admire our world-class themed environments, carefully-tended flower topiaries, and behind them please enjoy a bunch of big, dark, clunky, mechanical behemoths!

Who wants take a photo in front of that? Who wants to pay for that view during dinner?? Not me. Not anywhere on earth would I want to spend a day with those barges as a backdrop, and especially not in Epcot.

Now the show itself requires specific lagoon viewing locations to properly see the screens, and yet guests see ugly barge hardware all around the lagoon, all day long. ?! It's crazy. A reversal from Illuminations which is fully viewable lagoon-wide and the barge disappeared until evening.

The barges ruin the beauty and themed environment so completely, I just can't understand how anyone approved them. (And the barge fountain idea was also alarmingly ill-conceived. What were they thinking?)

No nighttime show is worth this trade-off!

 

[Cliff]

The barges are horrible and ruin Epcot's atmosphere. I'm rarely a complainer, but I posted this over a year ago on a different thread and I feel this even more strongly now that the barges have been there for a while:



Now the show itself requires specific lagoon viewing locations to properly see the screens, and yet guests see ugly barge hardware all around the lagoon, all day long. ?! It's crazy. A reversal from Illuminations which is fully viewable lagoon-wide and the barge disappeared until evening.

The barges ruin the beauty and themed environment so completely, I just can't understand how anyone approved them. (And the barge fountain idea was also alarmingly ill-conceived. What were they thinking?)

No nighttime show is worth this trade-off!

There is a nice marina back stage that should be used. They have a draw bridge to for that very reason too.

Whatever show they make needs to be mobile and movable and only brought in 1 hour or 2 before showtime.

Also!!,....the new show CANNOT have a limited viewing location. Harmonious is limited to a 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock lagoon viewing spot. Locations like Canada, China, Norway and UK are all "side" views of Harmoious. If the StarGate was able to rotate 360 degrees, then maybe...but it can't.

Any new show must have an EQUAL viewing experience, no matter where you are at the lagoon.

 

[gorillaball]

I’be been thinking about the drones people keep thinking will be included, and they might not be as beneficial as people think.

One of the repeated complaints about the current actual show is that you “need” to face the star gate to get the show as expected.

I’m concerned drones would be a similar issue. Every drone show I’ve seen in person or on line have been designed to be see from a specific angle to be properly enjoyed. I don’t know of any that have been designed for 360 viewing. (If any one has links to examples I would love to see them). I remember watching the Disney Springs one a few years ago from behind the west side Starbucks, and it looked great, but from the Marketplace captain jacks area many of the things looked weird.

Now perhaps the drones will be some of the special ones (puppet drones and flixels) they got patents for…

I have the same concerns. Even more so, I'm more concerned drones won't age well, I realize I'm in the minority on this. I just feel like it's the flash in the pan new tech that everyone is excited about and then... whoopie, it's ordinary.

 

[trainplane3]

There is a nice marina back stage that should be used. They have a draw bridge to for that very reason too.

Whatever show they make needs to be mobile and movable and only brought in 1 hour or 2 before showtime.

Also!!,....the new show CANNOT have a limited viewing location. Harmonious is limited to a 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock lagoon viewing spot. Locations like Canada, China, Norway and UK are all "side" views of Harmoious. If the StarGate was able to rotate 360 degrees, then maybe...but it can't.

Any new show must have an EQUAL viewing experience, no matter where you are at the lagoon.

You mean you don't enjoy looking at a vertical line of LEDs in the middle of the lagoon?

 

[Figments Friend]

It is my understanding that the Reflections of Earth hardware was taken backstage and destroyed. However,...I would give my left arm to see it it's basic theme re-made with brand new hardware and have Gavin write a new score that carries the RoE thoughts further.

Read this...it will blow your mind.....

"On it [Earth] everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

It was told to me by a person involved with the creation of RoE that THIS paragraph is literally the exact concept that was used as THE actual basic premise of RoE back in 1999.

In my humble opinion...how could a light and happy "Harmonious" show with nothing really to say....ever compete with this incredibly powerful RoE "meaningful" concept that applies to every single living creature on Earth?

I always feel that Harmonious and it's "When you find out who your are,...you'll find out what you need" message is not a positive or constructive one. I feel like Harmonious "celebrates" division and sub division and sub-sub division and sub-sub-sub division of people focuses way too much on their "identity".

Reflections of Earth is more the other way. It UNIFIES everything and everybody...not just "people" and "cultures" but of all life on this crazy rock floating in space. We are all together on this thing and we are all one. (Humans, animals, plants, bacteria, etc....all life)

Everything that lives also must die....and we go on.....

Great post.

Folks, re-read this again.


-

 

[Vinnie Mac]

There is soooo much more to Reflections of Earth that many people just dont know. Soooooooo much....and we are going to see a LOT more about this show in the future. By next summer, we are all going to learn quite a bit more about it and the concept and creation of the show. ;-)

Harmonious has a good heart. It "tries" it's hardest to help and say good message. I know it was made with best intentions. I have no question about that. I just think that it follows a basic theory that "identity".. or,..."who" society identifies with or "what" society identifies with is very a very "important" factor. I think the is heavily flawed.

"I" personally would love to see society reach a state where "identity" is NOT something we celebrate or condemn any longer. I would rather see what everybody identifies with as being....well?....just NOT important any more. Human beings are ALL inherently the same and we should ALL "identify" with THAT idea instead and not divide, sub divide and sub, sub divide and "classify" and assign all of these "labels" and "tags" to people and make it sound "glorious!!" and "wonderful!!" that we are doing that stuff.

Harmonious means well. I get it....but it's message doesn't actually achieve what it tries to do. I feel we need to move WAY higher then that stuff and see a much bigger picture of what ALL of humanity actually is.

I get what you're saying but I don't think showcasing cultural difference is a bad thing. We are the same species, but it would be incorrect to deny the fact that we do have cultural and social differences. Whether it's the religion we practice, the food we eat, or the type of architectural style our home and its surrounding area follows. These differences do exist.

This, after all, is the entire appeal of World Showcase. It is quite literally showcasing different cultural elements. I think it's less of a division thing and more of a beautiful quality of human life. The fact that we as people are so willing to explore and learn about our differences warms my heart.

 

[Thelazer]

It was a grand fever dream of illusions and revenue projections that made Harmonious.
Not the best of intentions.

 

[Cliff]

I get what you're saying but I don't think showcasing cultural difference is a bad thing. We are the same species, but it would be incorrect to deny the fact that we do have cultural and social differences. Whether it's the religion we practice, the food we eat, or the type of architectural style our home and its surrounding area follows. These differences do exist.

This, after all, is the entire appeal of World Showcase. It is quite literally showcasing different cultural elements. I think it's less of a division thing and more of a beautiful quality of human life. The fact that we as people are so willing to explore and learn about our differences warms my heart.

It's interesting. I've been friends for a long time with a woman of Native American decent. Today, she is now part of the LGBT community. Over the past 5 or so years, I have noticed a big change in her mood and the things she always talks about. She has been diving deeper and deeper into "identity" thinking. She is thinking more and more about the concept race, gender and ancestory. She is going deeper and deeper into social groups that promote "identity" thought and philosophy. She is slowly getting more polarized and angry with what she thinks about society with gender politics, race and political parties.

Today, you cannot talk to here for even 3 minutes without her bringing up the topic of "identity" or the things that she identifies with or...[worse]....want's to know what YOU identify with! Every year, her mood just seems to drop lower and lower the further she sinks into this "identity" quicksand. I'm sad for her because she was not like this 5 years or 10 years ago. She used to be a VERY happy care-free person.

Strangely enough,...I dont know if this is related...but she talks a lot about "triggers" now. Ten years ago, she would have never said she has any "triggers". Five years ago, she started it and would have told you she has two or three big "triggers". Every year since, she has been adding more and more things that she says "trigger" her. Today, her emotional "trigger" list is maybe 100 things long...and she keeps adding new ones every year. I dont get it... In 10 more years, she will have thousands of things in life that "trigger" her emotionally???

Is this intense "identity" stuff just growing wildly in society??? It just seems that it "can" suddenly get WAY out of control in somebodies brain without someone even knowing it's happening.

I dunno,.....I REALLY hope I'm 100% totally wrong about this....

 

[LittleBuford]

It's interesting. I've been friends for a long time with a woman of Native American decent. Today, she is now part of the LGBT community. Over the past 5 or so years, I have noticed a big change in her mood and the things she always talks about. She has been diving deeper and deeper into "identity" thinking. She is thinking more and more about the concept race, gender and ancestory. She is going deeper and deeper into social groups that promote "identity" thought and philosophy. She is slowly getting more polarized and angry with what she thinks about society with gender politics, race and political parties.

Today, you cannot talk to here for even 3 minutes without her bringing up the topic of "identity" or the things that she identifies with or...[worse]....want's to know what YOU identify with! Every year, her mood just seems to drop lower and lower the further she sinks into this "identity" quicksand. I'm sad for her because she was not like this 5 years or 10 years ago. She used to be a VERY happy care-free person.

Strangely enough,...I dont know if this is related...but she talks a lot about "triggers" now. Ten years ago, she would have never said she has any "triggers". Five years ago, she started it and would have told you she has two or three big "triggers". Every year since, she has been adding more and more things that she says "trigger" her. Today, her emotional "trigger" list is maybe 100 things long...and she keeps adding new ones every year. I dont get it... In 10 more years, she will have thousands of things in life that "trigger" her emotionally???

Is this intense "identity" stuff just growing wildly in society??? It just seems that it "can" suddenly get WAY out of control in somebodies brain without someone even knowing it's happening.

I dunno,.....I REALLY hope I'm 100% totally wrong about this....

Perhaps she is now a more honest, self-aware version of herself. When I first came out to my dad, I was grateful for his “acceptance” (which boiled down to “I don’t like it, but I still love you”) and played along with his request never to talk about my sexuality again. As the years went by, I realised that I was demeaning myself by settling for mere toleration and that my dad and I would never have a proper relationship if I spent my life editing my words in his presence. I finally embraced my identity and told him he had to do the same. It was tough at first, but he rose to the challenge, and I couldn’t be prouder of him.

All of this is to say that quietness should not be equated with contentedness. What you view as a negative change in your friend’s mood may, from her perspective, be an important process of self-discovery and empowerment.

 

[Cliff]

Perhaps she is now a more honest, self-aware version of herself. When I first came out to my dad, I was grateful for his “acceptance” (which boiled down to “I don’t like it, but I still love you”) and played along with his request never to talk about my sexuality again. As the years went by, I realised that I was demeaning myself by settling for mere toleration and that my dad and I would never have a proper relationship if I spent my life editing my words in his presence. I finally embraced my identity and told him he had to do the same. It was tough at first, but he rose to the challenge, and I couldn’t be prouder of him.

All of this is to say that quietness should not be equated with contentedness. What you view as a negative change in your friend’s mood may, from her perspective, be an important process of self-discovery and empowerment.

I'm certainly sensitive to your situatuon and others that also have gone through that. However, in life....it seems to me that "any" concept has a "normal" and "practicle" level but can be pushed too far. Even anything that is considered healthy and good can be pushed too far to where it becomes something negative. This applies to every single idea and concept that humans have ever come up with.

If somebody becomes absolutely obsessed with trying to find out "who" they are and "where" they fit in society can go off the rails. This identity concept is not just gender, it's way larger then that. People identify with race, ethnicity, social classes, politics, age, body shape, skin color, street gangs,...all the way down to what footbal team colors you paint on your face at NFL games. You, of course could easily get into a passionate fist fight with the other guy who has the wrong NFL teams colors on his body. (Yes...this identity tribalism DOES happen every weekend in stadium parking lots all over the country) We can be so obsessed with identity so badly that we can go to war over it.

There is a girl down my street that wears black clothes, black makeup, nails and lipstick. She will tell you she identifies as an actual "vampire". This is no joke. She is dead serious that she is NOT "human". I guess her parents go along with it. I just smile and wave kindly at her. Who am I to tell her that she is not what she thinks she is. I just dont know who tought her this stuff and why she believes it or identifies with that.

Identity is fine to a point....but getting "obsessed" about it and taking it too far is a really bad thing for all society.

 

[LittleBuford]

Identity is fine to a point....but getting "obsessed" about it and taking it too far is a really bad thing.

I agree that obsession of any kind is a bad thing, but nothing you described in your earlier post struck me as obsessive. Your friend is discovering things about herself and her beliefs that she wasn’t able to explore earlier in life. That’s might very well be a good thing from her perspective.

 

[DC0703]

It's interesting. I've been friends for a long time with a woman of Native American decent. Today, she is now part of the LGBT community. Over the past 5 or so years, I have noticed a big change in her mood and the things she always talks about. She has been diving deeper and deeper into "identity" thinking. She is thinking more and more about the concept race, gender and ancestory. She is going deeper and deeper into social groups that promote "identity" thought and philosophy. She is slowly getting more polarized and angry with what she thinks about society with gender politics, race and political parties.

Today, you cannot talk to here for even 3 minutes without her bringing up the topic of "identity" or the things that she identifies with or...[worse]....want's to know what YOU identify with! Every year, her mood just seems to drop lower and lower the further she sinks into this "identity" quicksand. I'm sad for her because she was not like this 5 years or 10 years ago. She used to be a VERY happy care-free person.

Strangely enough,...I dont know if this is related...but she talks a lot about "triggers" now. Ten years ago, she would have never said she has any "triggers". Five years ago, she started it and would have told you she has two or three big "triggers". Every year since, she has been adding more and more things that she says "trigger" her. Today, her emotional "trigger" list is maybe 100 things long...and she keeps adding new ones every year. I dont get it... In 10 more years, she will have thousands of things in life that "trigger" her emotionally???

Is this intense "identity" stuff just growing wildly in society??? It just seems that it "can" suddenly get WAY out of control in somebodies brain without someone even knowing it's happening.

I dunno,.....I REALLY hope I'm 100% totally wrong about this....

If she seemed happy and care-free 5-10 years ago and was a closeted lesbian at the time, the "happy" side you were seeing was likely a facade to fit in. I know from experience. After coming out, she likely started more feeling comfortable expressing the challenges and frustrations that she previously felt in private and kept to herself. Her talk of identity is also likely tied to the fact that she now feels that she is expressing her true self, whereas before she was holding parts of herself back.

 

[SoFloMagic]

Great post.

Folks, re-read this again.


-

Harmonious celebrates diversity by showing superficial traits of different cultures through the lens of Disney movies.

Roe instead sought to sow togetherness.

Both have their place as ideas, but I think the idea of celebrating individual cultures is a noble one. It's just horrendously executed. Especially the Africa segment.