Epcot Center/Buena Vista Drive Interchange Project

[DVCOwner]

We are talking at cross purposes here, I'm saying light rail would be a better FIT for the Airport to resort/convention center traffic which was part of the 'high speed rail' rightfully killed by Gov Voldermort.

Once at the Disney station buses would bring the guests to the parks and resorts, Buses would in my model handle the 10PM-5AM airport traffic as well.

In reality if you analyze the schedules the BUSY times at MCO are really from 7AM to 7PM and we can assume much of that traffic is heading to Disney, UNI, and the convention centers. This is the 'sweet spot' for trains.

As an engineer that has work many transportation issues over the years, you have hit the nail on the head on this one. I can not believe it; I have found a second topic we agree on this week. Maybe I am not totally a pixie duster after all.

 

[Goofyernmost]

And whoever still thinks there's secret buried footers is probably on drugs and needs to have their head(s) examined!

For heavens sake, Peter, someday I'm going to go down there and help you dig them up. You cannot ever seem to get through your head that whatever purpose they had at the time of construction no longer exists. I know they are there, it has been publicly shown that they are there and why they were put there at the time of Epcot's construction, everybody knows they are there, someplace under the grass. At what point is it that you are going to accept that it means nothing currently any more the a ball point pen that an engineer dropped and it has since been covered over with dirt. We get it! They planned differently at one time. At one point in time I planned on being king of a nation. Ask me how that's working for me.

 

[George]

My city (West Palm Beach) is the most walkable city in the nation thanks to New Urbanism, thank you.

I've walked every population center in this country with more than 15,000 citizens (cutoff was not entirely arbitrary, Cullman, Al has a population of 14,775 and for reasons that shall remain secret, I can't walk there). I can tell you that the most walkable, taking into account all the official walk ability metrics is Meford, Oregon.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Just a small point, I know, but, all this road construction does not have the people staying on property in mind. A project the size of Disney Springs would need a lot of outside, non-tourist trade to be solvent. It is to make it easier for people that are not on site to come onto the property. No one stays on I-4, just on branches off it. Let's face it, the place is destined to be a shopping/partying mecca. It will make Pleasure Island look like a corner pub if they play it right. And they must be pretty sure that they are or they wouldn't be spending the dollars they are on it.

Thing to keep in mind Disney Springs will be to WDW what the Eiffel Tower is to Paris. Just a thing within a place. In other words, the Eiffel Tower is in a place called Paris. Disney Springs will be in a place called Walt Disney World, but, that will be the end of it's real connection. (Of course, there will be the regular Disney Items and Plus Cost things to do, but, that is it.)

I don't know about "partying mecca." I don't know that anything within Disney's walls will ever be "cool" enough for the real partiers.

But people around here describe Food and Wine festival like it's a four keg frat party during rush week so who knows what the standard for "partying mecca" is?

 

[JohnD]

Why would monorail links between the theme parks make sense? How much traffic is really from people park hopping? Now, if there was a single massively large parking area for all theme parks, and it required transportation to get to the parks, that might make sense.

I wonder if there have been any studies about the traffic patterns, source of traffic, etc. For example, what percentage of cars are from outside WDW, what percentage from resort guests, what percentage just driving through, etc. I'm sure there must have been some studies for Disney to know what would be needed to address the conjestion.

My point being, due to the nature of a single rail, that it can only go from one place to the next and it has an exhoribitant cost per mile, I can only conceive of WDW even possibly in a million years building another rail line that would connect Epcot to AK via HS. No, I am not a "monorail-er" to borrow a phrase. I just liked this particular concept.

 

[ford91exploder]

As an engineer that has work many transportation issues over the years, you have hit the nail on the head on this one. I can not believe it; I have found a second topic we agree on this week. Maybe I am not totally a pixie duster after all.

Or perhaps I'm not such a D&G'er as some would have me be, Remember I describe myself as a REFORMED pixie duster

 

[ford91exploder]

One reason why monorails make sense ON PROPERTY is lets face it WDW is a giant SWAMP, Light rail and roads require lots of fill and drainage,

Monorails for high traffic links only require at worst cofferdams to protect the pylons, Hence much cheaper overall for buildout.

Routing is a whole 'nother topic, Personally probably the best bet for routing would be from TTC to AoA/Pop areas due to the sheer number of buses required.

 

[marni1971]

Expect the WDW bus system to expand to an even bigger entity than it already is before it implodes.

 

[jt04]

More capital improvement projects at WDW to ensure successful growth in the future. Makes sense.

 

[jt04]

One reason why monorails make sense ON PROPERTY is lets face it WDW is a giant SWAMP, Light rail and roads require lots of fill and drainage,

Monorails for high traffic links only require at worst cofferdams to protect the pylons, Hence much cheaper overall for buildout.

Self driving vehicles will make the monorails obsolete sooner than people think. Eisner even predicted the possibility as CEO.

 

[marni1971]

More capital improvement projects at WDW to ensure successful growth in the future. Makes sense.

That isn't what I said and you know it!

And far from it. A project I've heard will replace, not increase, and will save cost.

 

[ford91exploder]

Self driving vehicles will make the monorails obsolete sooner than people think. Eisner even predicted the possibility as CEO.

Self Driving vehicles - don't EVER get behind one,

Monorails make sense in wet ground areas for transit links, It would have been much cheaper to run light rail to epcot EXCEPT for the soil mechanics issue.

 

[jt04]

That isn't what I said and you know it!

And far from it. A project I've heard will replace, not increase, and will save cost.

We were posting at the same time. I was not refering to you but speaking rhetorically. I am thinking they might need 10 lanes for the new Frozen attraction.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Expect the WDW bus system to expand to an even bigger entity than it already is before it implodes.

Could we potentially see trunk routes, bus lanes, and/or a sort of BRT system being tested? Or are they continuing to (foolishly) stick with the point to point method?

And speaking of the future implosion of the buses, is there a larger master plan for WDW transportation that has any hope of being realized? Something that is more ambitious and efficient than the framework of the current system?

 

[marni1971]

Could we potentially see trunk routes, bus lanes, and/or a sort of BRT system being tested? Or are they continuing to (foolishly) stick with the point to point method?

Nothing I can comment on at the mo.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Could we potentially see trunk routes, bus lanes, and/or a sort of BRT system being tested? Or are they continuing to (foolishly) stick with the point to point method?

And speaking of the future implosion of the buses, is there a larger master plan for WDW transportation that has any hope of being realized? Something that is more ambitious and efficient than the framework of the current system?

Why is point to point stupid? Do you prefer waiting in a second line at some hub somewhere after you've already waited in a first line at a park somewhere? I'd personally rather just wait in the one.

Don't forget the joy of waiting for bus driver shift changes and ECV/wheelechair arrival and egress at every transfer point.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Nothing I can comment on at the mo.

You seriously cannot comment on something that isn't even a new attraction???? A new or expanded roadway is a secret? C'mon, really?!?!?

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Why is point to point stupid? Do you prefer waiting in a second line at some hub somewhere after you've already waited in a first line at a park somewhere? I'd personally rather just wait in the one.

Don't forget the joy of waiting for bus driver shift changes and ECV/wheelechair arrival and egress at every transfer point.

Because from an infrastructure and cost standpoint, it's incredibly inefficient. And it's not like the current system guarantees speedy transport for guests. If it meant waits were no more than 5 minutes then it would perhaps be ok, but it's still not uncommon to wait 15 or 20 minutes.

WDW has around 30 hotels. The point to point method means each of these hotels has at least 5 bus lines (the 4 theme parks and DTD). That's around about 150 distinct bus routes crisscrossing WDW, varying on crowd levels and whether some hotels (like the All Stars) are sharing one route or if each has its own. Let's say there are (average) 2-3 buses on each route to move people about. That's 300-450 buses and upwards of 900 drivers (multiple shifts, remember) just to move people from their resort to the parks. The same movement of people could be done with fewer buses and with shorter waits if it was reorganized to be a coherent network rather than a bloated shuttle system.

If Disney insists on only using buses, then instituting a network of "express" bus lines with dedicated lanes down the main roadways of WDW with transfer points to "local" resort buses makes infinitely more sense than it does to keep trying to maintain the point to point system that is currently in place. If done properly, it would mean less overhead, better use of resources, and (I think) shorter overall waits and higher overall bus speeds.

 

[George]

Expect the WDW bus system to expand to an even bigger entity than it already is before it implodes.

If it implodes, is the implication that WDW will purchase so many buses that they will be attracted to each other and eventually collapse violently inward (implosion) creating the heart of a new black hole? Good strategy, because essentially every consumer on planet earth will be forced to enter the property.

 

[MGMBoy]

Numberswise..... in 2013, TriMet (in Oregon) authorized $18m to buy 40 of the low-floor 30' diesel bus, same model that Disney operates. Works out to $465k/bus. Probably closer to a half-million per bus for the mouse because they don't buy 40 at a time... more like 10.

Portland has streetcars. The initial cost for that was $12.9M/mile, including trams. (See http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/101222_redhook_sc_casestudies.pdf for a lot of detailed info on the feasibility). Seems like it could be a reasonable addition to create a multi-modal solution to the insane transportation problem WDW has.

Speaking as someone who has used the TriMet system for years I can say that it certainly has its benefits as well as drawbacks. Part if the problem that I could see immediately is that WDW guests have been spoiled by door-to-door service of the buses for so long that I don't know how willingly they would adopt a system which may require a little walking from platform to platform. There is also the issue of sheer volume. if you ran trains comparable to the ones we use here in Portland then, early in the morning, you could be looking at HUNDREDS of trainloads of guests which would snarl street traffic with all the crossing arms. Then there is the tourist factor. In Portland there was a little bit of a learning curve when the streetcars were first introduced. Amplify that with the usual lost tourists and those who feel like they are more important and don't need to obey the Bus/Train only lanes and there could be big issues.

Saying all of that, I think Disney COULD implement a system pretty painlessly. If you put the "real" TTC in the area on the west side of World Drive across from Studios then you would have direct access to all the major arterials. This wouldn't have a parking lot or anything, that would still be at each of the parks, this would be just for interpark/hotel travel. The picture below is what I would be thinking:

The red & black lines would run right along World Drive to both EPCOT & MK. The Green line would be a short jog to connect Studios to this Hub along BVD and the Blue line would actually probably be two lines. One going East to Springs and one West to DAK. There would even be the option of express/local trains. For example, the MK Local could include stops for Wilderness Lodge/Contemporary since they are both right on the way there while the Express would go straight to the park. Likewise the DAK line could stop for Coronado & Blizzard Beach and the Springs could stop for a possible south side walking entrance to OKW and also drop off at Typhoon Lagoon. It's not a perfect idea but I think it would be an option they could consider. I would envision the existing bus system overlapping this initially but, eventually, the buses could be localized so that, if you were at MK and going to All-Star you would go MK to Hub, Hub to DAK and bus to All-Star. The logistics of managing the trains at the ends of the routes would be difficult but I am just throwing my idea out there.

Let the wolves have at it.