Epcot Center/Buena Vista Drive Interchange Project

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Killing that project was one of Gov. Voldemort's best ideas, Light rail COULD have worked but that was not what the funding was for, Light rail combines most of the best attributes of buses and gives them a dedicated 'lane' so to speak as well as much higher capacity.
Any kind of rail lacks the number one attribute of buses; flexibility. In other words, rail needs RAILS. You can pick any "Point A" and "Point B" on a map and a bus can get from one to the other on existing roadways. Rail needs stations and tracks to get from Point A to Point B. So while a bus can get you to an infinite number of destinations, a train can only carry you on a predetermined line with some stops along the way.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Any kind of rail lacks the number one attribute of buses; flexibility. In other words, rail needs RAILS. You can pick any "Point A" and "Point B" on a map and a bus can get from one to the other on existing roadways. Rail needs stations and tracks to get from Point A to Point B. So while a bus can get you to an infinite number of destinations, a train can only carry you on a predetermined line with some stops along the way.

Buses indeed do have more flexibility but on fixed routes with fixed stops they are less efficient than light rail, It's why in silicon valley there is the VTA system which carries the high load fixed route traffic in addition to a conventional bus system.

Trains have another key advantage they are affected far less by inclement weather than are buses and they are not subject to traffic issues.

For an effective mass transit system one needs both rail and buses. One gives you capacity and schedule reliability the other gives you flexibility in handling variable load situations.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Buses indeed do have more flexibility but on fixed routes with fixed stops they are less efficient than light rail, It's why in silicon valley there is the VTA system which carries the high load fixed route traffic in addition to a conventional bus system.

Trains have another key advantage they are affected far less by inclement weather than are buses and they are not subject to traffic issues.

For an effective mass transit system one needs both rail and buses. One gives you capacity and schedule reliability the other gives you flexibility in handling variable load situations.
But those examples aren't applicable to Walt Disney World. A traditional mass transit system operates on a commuter schedule with heavy volume coming from the suburbs into the downtown area (pretty much) all at once and then leaving the downtown area back out to the suburbs (pretty much) all at once. There is no "high load fixed route traffic" at WDW because people are coming and going from every which way at all times of day. That's why the monorail loop works as a circle. It's only five stops and they're fairly close together so the circle works. But a giant round trip loop connecting every park and resort at WDW would take far too long, and a hub-and-spoke model wouldn't work either because there are simply too many spokes.
 
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danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
Is there a timetable or anything on when te permit expires?

I haven't seen anything in the documents about a timeline for this. SFWMD permits generally take about a month to get approved assuming they don't ask for more information, and then construction usually doesn't start for a few months after the approval. These permits do have an expiration date but it's normally well beyond the time it will take to do the work. A 5 year expiration is not un-common.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
But those examples aren't applicable to Walt Disney World. A traditional mass transit system operates on a commuter schedule with heavy volume coming from the suburbs into the downtown area (pretty much) all at once and then leaving the downtown area back out to the suburbs (pretty much) all at once. There is no "high load fixed route traffic" at WDW because people are coming and going from every which way at all times of day. That's why the monorail loop works as a circle. It's only five stops and they're fairly close together so the circle works. But a giant round trip loop connecting every park and resort at WDW would take far too long, and a hub-and-spoke model wouldn't work either because there are simply too many spokes.

We are talking at cross purposes here, I'm saying light rail would be a better FIT for the Airport to resort/convention center traffic which was part of the 'high speed rail' rightfully killed by Gov Voldermort.

Once at the Disney station buses would bring the guests to the parks and resorts, Buses would in my model handle the 10PM-5AM airport traffic as well.

In reality if you analyze the schedules the BUSY times at MCO are really from 7AM to 7PM and we can assume much of that traffic is heading to Disney, UNI, and the convention centers. This is the 'sweet spot' for trains.
 

Jeffxz

Well-Known Member
Is there a timetable or anything on when te permit expires?
I haven't seen anything in the documents about a timeline for this. SFWMD permits generally take about a month to get approved assuming they don't ask for more information, and then construction usually doesn't start for a few months after the approval. These permits do have an expiration date but it's normally well beyond the time it will take to do the work. A 5 year expiration is not un-common.

According to this: http://www.i4express.com/Seg1Docs/Draft_I4_and_SR_536_IMR_08262014.pdf
Skip to page Page-761


The Epcot Center Drive Interchange project has funding through 2017.
The total projected cost (2014-2017) for this project is 100,000,000.
 

P_Radden

Well-Known Member
The total projected cost (2014-2017) for this project is 100,000,000.

original.jpg
 

Shaman

Well-Known Member
If EPCOT had been built as an Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, it would have been the downfall of The Walt Disney Company and be known forever as "Disney's folly." I can't imagine how a man who spent much of his life speaking to the evils of communism somehow had, as his final great dream, a grand vision of a communist utopia.

Why communist? He was basically a developer, wanting to build a city. Progressive, sure...he wanted to improve upon the outdated inefficient concepts of the time. But Walt was a Capitalist.

Good planning yields positive results. Not sure if even the suits at Disney ever foresaw WDW becoming what it is today. It seems to me that engineers are playing it by ear, when it comes to roadways and the overall transportation systems at WDW. A few expansions here, a new entry point there. There has to be a master plan, and skimping on improvements for some kind of short term Wallstreet win could cost Disney in the long run (only so many roads you can build). In my opinion, a mix of expanded rail, roads, busses is key.

All comes down to money though. And the right vision....
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
Downtown gets an 82 which still ranks it below the entire city of New York and San Francisco.

It also comes in well shy of other smaller districts in the state. Flamingo-Lummus at 93, West Avenue at 88, City Center at 88, Little Havana at 86 and Wynwood-Edgewater at 85. I went no further than Miami and found 5 places that beat Downtown West Palm Beach.
Maybe his subdivision?
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
If EPCOT had been built as an Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, it would have been the downfall of The Walt Disney Company and be known forever as "Disney's folly." I can't imagine how a man who spent much of his life speaking to the evils of communism somehow had, as his final great dream, a grand vision of a communist utopia.
I felt the same way about its fortunes until I finally watched the Old Man pitch it himself. By the end you're pretty much sold. Makes you realize what type of person he was. I'd watch this before passing judgement:

You may not think it will bomb after that. Of course, he was the ultimate salesman. The good things for his investors is he also had impeccable taste.

Nothing communist about it. He planned to have several corporations take the offices and reserve rooms for their employees. Part of an employees salary was free housing, and I'd imagine mass transit. The plans also called for different levels of zoning. If you wanted a house in suburbs you could get it. More of city person? Get an apartment. Totally flexible. I'd imagine that you could get better housing if you'd like, based off of income.

I'd say this about as far away from communist as you can get. In fact, I'd say this would've been pretty close to a corporatist society.
 

hpyhnt 1000

Well-Known Member
Why would monorail links between the theme parks make sense? How much traffic is really from people park hopping? Now, if there was a single massively large parking area for all theme parks, and it required transportation to get to the parks, that might make sense.

I wonder if there have been any studies about the traffic patterns, source of traffic, etc. For example, what percentage of cars are from outside WDW, what percentage from resort guests, what percentage just driving through, etc. I'm sure there must have been some studies for Disney to know what would be needed to address the conjestion.

THIS. Those who advocate for connecting the 4 parks by monorail miss the point.

Everyone complains about the bus system. But the main purpose of the busses is to connect the RESORTS to the parks. Expanding the monorail to connect AK and Epcot together serves very little purpose. But connecting AK to all the resort hotels via an efficient and timely rail line would be a huge benefit.

The trick is figuring out how to do that when you have 30+ distinct destinations that are all largely unconnected from each other and arranged in no easily groupable manner. How do you move a mass of thousands of people all descending on rail/bus/monorail at park closing in the span of about 1.5hours and get them to one of 30 destinations without making them transfer 3 or 4 different times or having them go way out of their way to one end of the property just to backtrack? The sprawl and isolation of the resorts makes the WDW transportation conundrum such a tough one.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Multi-BILLION dollars (in 1991) for an infrastructure project that would generate zero incremental revenue. If that were ever approved the Board of Directors and the entire C-suite would face a class action lawsuit from the shareholders for breach of fiduciary duty. And people think NextGen was a waste of money.
I would argue that guest satisfaction would improve more with monorail expansion than with Next Gen.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
I would argue that guest satisfaction would improve more with monorail expansion than with Next Gen.
I would disagree. The novelty of the monorail would wear off quickly if it wasn't something you did only those two days you were at the Magic Kingdom. Having monorails everywhere would lead to them becoming just as pedestrian (no pun intended) and ordinary as the buses are. Further, any comprehensive monorail system would need to have some kind of central hub where you'd connect to your final destination because direct routes everywhere would be impossible. Waiting for the monorail at Animal Kingdom Lodge, sitting through a stop at Animal Kingdom, getting off the monorail at the new TTC, waiting in a different line for the Hollywood Studios monorail, then finally making it to Hollywood Studios would take way longer and be much more frustrating than simply getting on a bus direct from Animal Kingdom Lodge to Hollywood Studios.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I would disagree. The novelty of the monorail would wear off quickly if it wasn't something you did only those two days you were at the Magic Kingdom. Having monorails everywhere would lead to them becoming just as pedestrian (no pun intended) and ordinary as the buses are. Further, any comprehensive monorail system would need to have some kind of central hub where you'd connect to your final destination because direct routes everywhere would be impossible. Waiting for the monorail at Animal Kingdom Lodge, sitting through a stop at Animal Kingdom, getting off the monorail at the new TTC, waiting in a different line for the Hollywood Studios monorail, then finally making it to Hollywood Studios would take way longer and be much more frustrating than simply getting on a bus direct from Animal Kingdom Lodge to Hollywood Studios.
The benefit would be ease of transport between parks. In theory that can be achieved by other metrics as well.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
The benefit would be ease of transport between parks. In theory that can be achieved by other metrics as well.
But it wouldn't be easier. It would be more difficult. You'd have to transfer and transfers are annoying/difficult. Example: People think it's the greatest thing to be able to get to Epcot from a Magic Kingdom monorail resort but it actually takes much longer to monorail over to the TTC, get off, walk down the ramp, walk back up the next ramp, wait for the Epcot train, then monorail over to Epcot than it does to just take the bus straight from the Contemporary or whatever.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
But it wouldn't be easier. It would be more difficult. You'd have to transfer and transfers are annoying/difficult. Example: People think it's the greatest thing to be able to get to Epcot from a Magic Kingdom monorail resort but it actually takes much longer to monorail over to the TTC, get off, walk down the ramp, walk back up the next ramp, wait for the Epcot train, then monorail over to Epcot than it does to just take the bus straight from the Contemporary or whatever.
Agreed. If it was a system of transfer after transfer than it wouldn't be easier. I should have specified that more direct links on transportation that isn't busses would improve guest satisfaction. The realty is, any improvement to the transportation system would improve guest satisfaction.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
I love when you post all these permits, btw! Thanks!

It would be an interesting study to see how much money they're spending on road and parking infrastructure upgrades right now and compare it to what could have been done with the same amount of money for mass transit projects other than bus upgrades. I don't know the results, just saying it would be an interesting study.

The road network at Disney has expanded and changed exponentially since the park opened in 1971, but the mass transit system has unfortunately stayed basically the same (with the exception of the Epcot monorail link). I'm also not counting buses because up until the current bus lane addition by Disney Springs, they've shared the same roads as all the cars.

It's probably the dreamer in me talking, but I was always intrigued by the idea of a high-speed rail link from the airport to Disney and an expanded monorail, light rail, people mover network on property that reduced majorly the reliance on cars on property. It could have been a good model for the US, actually. But, I digress.

Cool highway interchange expansion, though! ;)
Just a small point, I know, but, all this road construction does not have the people staying on property in mind. A project the size of Disney Springs would need a lot of outside, non-tourist trade to be solvent. It is to make it easier for people that are not on site to come onto the property. No one stays on I-4, just on branches off it. Let's face it, the place is destined to be a shopping/partying mecca. It will make Pleasure Island look like a corner pub if they play it right. And they must be pretty sure that they are or they wouldn't be spending the dollars they are on it.

Thing to keep in mind Disney Springs will be to WDW what the Eiffel Tower is to Paris. Just a thing within a place. In other words, the Eiffel Tower is in a place called Paris. Disney Springs will be in a place called Walt Disney World, but, that will be the end of it's real connection. (Of course, there will be the regular Disney Items and Plus Cost things to do, but, that is it.)
 

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