Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

I hope this highlighted line isn't going to become the standard for upcoming attractions. TSMM is great and interactive to a fantastic extreme. But I can have the same type of interaction now when I play it on my Wii at home. I have a fun time on TSMM but I don't necessarily feel fulfilled after riding it like I do with SM, Splash, ToT, etc. I actually feel more fulfilled in the queue and loading area of TSMM than I do on the ride.

Fulfillment is subjective and has to do with your expectations going in. I guess it might be more accurate to say the design is greatly dependent on you interacting with the screens, so if the competitive "twitch" aspect is not rich enough, then it suffers overall.

I enjoy TSMM. I do it with the kids and it's fun. Not a big repeat for them though. But they will sit on the Wii all day if allowed. Like the Autopia sets out to do one thing well, IMHO so does TSMM. It's a fun shooting gallery. It does not promise to take you on a journey into Woody's psyche. It's billed as a sideshow. It's a D Attraction in my ticket book and a good one. As for making this the typical template for new attractions, the Cars Ride is very physical and thrill oriented, with show and rich story on top. That seems to me like the old Disney. We'll have to wait and see.

Looking back at history, the park had 3 shooting galleries, now across the parks you have one real one and the others you ride through.

The one thing I've noticed about these ride through Shooting Galleries is that you are so focused on the targets and hitting them, any emotional connection to character and or story is secondary if nonexistent. So the comments about it not being "fullfilling" (as compared to rides that are more environmental) are understandable as the other attractions are more "passive" in one way but more immersive in another.

Very much in the way "Myst" or other Adventure CD titles satisfy in a way that a "first person shooter" like "Doom" may not. "Myst" back in the day, was known for it's realism and graphic richness as a mysterious yet explorable "world". The puzzles made it linear. The "shooter" lives for the hit and the hunt, the "adventurer" lives for the place and exploring it.

 

[Master Yoda]

Eddie...
You mention of the game Myst jogged my memory of something I wanted to ask you. Do you know how far the concept of transforming Discovery Island into Myst actually got?

 

[ValentineMouse]

The one thing I've noticed about these ride through Shooting Galleries is that you are so focused on the targets and hitting them, any emotional connection to character and or story is secondary if nonexistent.

There have been times when I've got off an attraction (primarily Duel at Alton Towers theme park and Lost Kingdom Adventure and Legoland CA), and literally have no memory of the show scenes inside the attraction because all I was doing was zoning in on the flashing targets.

It's certainly an odd experience doing Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters without even picking up the laser gun, precisely so you can pay attention to the scenery.

I definately agree with you Eddie when you say Midway Mania does what it sets out to do. It's a moving shooting gallery, and its great fun, but I don't think people need to worry about that becoming the new standard of interactivity. I accept it for what it is, and enjoy it! But when I think about 'interactive attraction' I'm think of lots more than that.

(Oh, and Myst? Pah! Give me Monkey Island )

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie...
You mention of the game Myst jogged my memory of something I wanted to ask you. Do you know how far the concept of transforming Discovery Island into Myst actually got?

I think it got into fiscal feasibility and lots of concept design, but nothing more.

 

[Master Yoda]

I think it got into fiscal feasibility and lots of concept design, but nothing more.

It is a shame it never came to fruition. The concept made the local news here in Jacksonville and was one of the things that catapulted my "like" for WDW into a near obsession. Needless to say I was a huge fan of the game and the idea of being able to actually walk onto the Island of Myst intrigued me to no end.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

It is a shame it never came to fruition. The concept made the local news here in Jacksonville and was one of the things that catapulted my "like" for WDW into a near obsession. Needless to say I was a huge fan of the game and the idea of being able to actually walk onto the Island of Myst intrigued me to no end.

So why are you still here now? :lookaroun

(j/k Richard) :lol:

 

[Master Yoda]

So why are you still here now? :lookaroun

(j/k Richard) :lol:

The unbreakable chains of that thing called family and responsibility. It is probably a good thing that I never moved down to Orlando as the recent recession would have more than likely left me unemployed.

 

[ValentineMouse]

I think it got into fiscal feasibility and lots of concept design, but nothing more.

Are you able to say what it would have included, Eddie? What were its 'attractions'? Exploration? Would guests have solved puzzles?

I think LOST Island would have worked for Discovery Island too, if it had been built a few seasons back.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Arcades or Streets?

A very interesting micechat thread on the possible DL Main Street Arcade.
http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...d-control-main-street-arcade-possibility.html

I Just read the thread so thank you. One of the controversies mentioned in the thread is whether to do an enclosed arcade or to do an open street. I think an "open air street" is more appropriate to the small-town feel of Disneyland's Main Street, than a more urban arcade concept. It would cost more for sure as all the surfaces are exterior grade and not repetitive. The big glass arcades are usually found in bigger cities like Cleveland or Ann Arbor (http://theclevelandarcade.com/home, http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM87VF_Nickels_Arcade_Ann_Arbor_Michigan). Of all the Main Streets, Disneyland's is the most "midwestern" and humblest in scale. Small Midwestern towns are not associated with Arcades that I know of. We looked when doing DLP and found nothing of note, so we invented an American version of one. Paris is filled with them, so Europeans like and use them. So if I was to vote, I'd lobby for an alley or small (but interesting) side street that does not compete with the larger Main Street. Tin Pan Alley? The other thing to consider is scale. Disneyland Paris operates on the larger, taller Walt Disney World scale which is much grander and a bit more urban by design. What this means is, if you want to duplicate a 10 foot wide passageway (in Paris that's between the iron columns, the arcade itself is even wider) you want to at least be 20 feet tall so it doesn't feel claustrophobic. Then you add the glass, then you add the roof, it ends up pretty big. Disneyland's façades would have a hard time covering all of that at the end of the day. If you treated the passageway as an open street, the scale issue could be dealt with in a simpler and in my opinion, more appropriate way.

As for the planning and functional aspects, the luxury they have never been able to afford (because they lose revenue if stores are closed) is to excavate and build a basement beneath the shopping areas of Main Street so the stores can be stocked and serviced from below. All those services that were mentioned in the other thread can be buried beneath this new street or the Main Street block, and that precious real estate backstage can still be used. It's only money Retail stores in the real world don't perform nearly as well as the Emporium or other stores at the park. Why they can't make a one time investment in the basement has always been a mystery to me. The circulation alone is of huge benefit, but the pain of closing each side of the street and the perceived lost revenue are factors that present the roadblocks. Long-term it would seem to be worth the money because the stores themselves could become larger.

I do think it's wonderful that this idea is back on the table. It was considered over a decade ago when I was down there working with Tony so I know this initiative in whatever form it takes is something he is passionate about. Let's all hope he gets his way. The fact that the park has allowed guests to exit on busy nights via backstage areas that smell of dumpsters has always been an embarrassment and breaks any spell that the lands and their environments have spun.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Are you able to say what it would have included, Eddie? What were its 'attractions'? Exploration? Would guests have solved puzzles?

I think LOST Island would have worked for Discovery Island too, if it had been built a few seasons back.

It's not really something I should get into as they may be doing something similar now, but if you liked the game you'd love this.

 

[misterID]

Good one. If you asked me my favorites in art direction it would probably be in there. This book is amazing.

http://www.amazon.com/Caligaris-Cab...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268896445&sr=1-1

I've always thought a remake in claymation, like The Corpse Bride would be fantastic. Or something re-imagined by Alex Proyas. Dark City was hugely influenced by Metropolis. I'd like to see the same for Caligari. Or even the way Coppola reimagined Dracula.

Thinking of the sets and the look of those films, did you ever wanted to design an attraction inspired from those films? I always thought a Grimms fairytale dark ride would be perfect for Germany in WS.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I've always thought a remake in claymation, like The Corpse Bride would be fantastic. Or something re-imagined by Alex Proyas. Dark City was hugely influenced by Metropolis. I'd like to see the same for Caligari. Or even the way Coppola reimagined Dracula.

Thinking of the sets and the look of those films, did you ever wanted to design an attraction inspired from those films? I always thought a Grimms fairytale dark ride would be perfect for Germany in WS.

I tried to get something going about 15 years ago using "Metropolis" as an interactive theater musical. We would build the city with REAL bars, underground, laboratory, etc. and clubs on a soundstage or in an abandoned walmart type building, You would roam the streets with food and drinks.. and then on the balconies and in the streets with actors, the story would play in real time to music, both on giant screens and in person. and at the end the "celebration" would be dancing in "the streets" like a club.

 

[misterID]

I tried to get something going about 15 years ago using "Metropolis" as an interactive theater musical. We would build the city with REAL bars, underground, laboratory, etc. and clubs on a soundstage or in an abandoned walmart type building, You would roam the streets with food and drinks.. and then on the balconies and in the streets with actors, the story would play in real time to music, both on giant screens and in person. and at the end the "celebration" would be dancing in "the streets" like a club.

Oh... My... God... The possibilities are endless. Not to mention what an artistic opportunity it would be... Holy crap. I'm speechless. I can't see how people wouldn't be in awe of something like that.

You know, there's a pretty big location that could fit this. Its this real big space that used to be called Pleasure Island...

 

[hack2112]

I tried to get something going about 15 years ago using "Metropolis" as an interactive theater musical. We would build the city with REAL bars, underground, laboratory, etc. and clubs on a soundstage or in an abandoned walmart type building, You would roam the streets with food and drinks.. and then on the balconies and in the streets with actors, the story would play in real time to music, both on giant screens and in person. and at the end the "celebration" would be dancing in "the streets" like a club.

That idea completely reminds me of a film I saw called Synecdoche, New York. Really great, yet completely off-putting film.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

"Knott's Preserved" Book Party

My good friend Chris Merritt, a very talented ex Imagineer who just finished opening UNIStudios Singapore, has written a book on the history of Knott's Berry Farm that took him more than a decade to assemble. His college thesis was on the "Soap Box Racer" ride and he interviewed me back in the late eighties. No one knows more. Tony Baxter wrote the introduction to the book (he's a Knott's fan too) and it contains 170 pages of history, pics and interviews. A must get if you like Knott's.

Links about Knott's for you Right coasters.

http://knottsghosttowntalent.com/knottshistory.html

http://www.bear-ytales.net/


Micechat is discussing it right now in this article.

http://www.yesterland.com/knottspreserved.html

This April 18th, Knott's is doing a special signing event with Chris and his book, a panel discussion with Knott's Designers, dinner, tours of the park, an all day thing, but the tickets/seating is limited. (Baxter will no doubt be there). I am going to be one of the designer panelists out there that Sunday (Rolly Crump) so if you have not been to "the farm" in a while and would like to say hello in person, this is a good way to do that. It would be fun to put faces with aliases! The link to the Yesterland article on the book has the order form, but now that it's posted this will likely go fast. So anyway, some of you "left coasters" may enjoy this. Walt spent lots of time at Knott's, and one old timer told me that Mr. Knott and Disney were friends till he hired away their Indians. An interesting night for sure.

This thing makes me feel REALLY old as "Soap Box Racers" was like 20 years ago. SEE YOU THERE!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Oh... My... God... The possibilities are endless. Not to mention what an artistic opportunity it would be... Holy crap. I'm speechless. I can't see how people wouldn't be in awe of something like that.

That's kind of what I thought but no one could visualize it. That happens. This was way before WDI. I had seen the Georgio Moroder synth version of Metropolis and was blown away by it. Madonna copied it. Lucas got C3PO from it, everyone but me got their chance to pay homage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ZpVwFAlFg

It's funny looking back, that the way I heard of that film was that Marc Davis said that Lincoln without his suit looked like the Robot in Metropolis. I didn't know what that meant but searched it out. There had been some interactive theater productions in LA (TAMARA) at that time where the audience watched the actors do pieces of the story in different rooms of a house, then they had to share what they knew of the mystery at intermission to get the whole idea. I loved that and thought it was a great model for something more grand and immersive. The main thing was that it worked.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/07/theater/it-may-be-fun-but-is-it-good-theater.html?pagewanted=all

 

[HMF]

My good friend Chris Merritt, a very talented ex Imagineer who just finished opening UNIStudios Singapore

Wait a minute' Chris Merritt was let go?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Wait a minute' Chris Merritt was let go?

As I remember it, Chris was always a consultant to WDI, not on the full time payroll, so they let him go after the Sleeping Beauty Walk-Thru. At one time he may have been but in my conversations, he was always seeking full time there. He took a job in Singapore doing Art Direction and installation of Universal Studios. A good opportunity. If you've seen any images, it's very nice.

 

[misterID]

That's kind of what I thought but no one could visualize it. That happens. This was way before WDI. I had seen the Georgio Moroder synth version of Metropolis and was blown away by it. Madonna copied it. Lucas got C3PO from it, everyone but me got their chance to pay homage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ZpVwFAlFg

It's funny looking back, that the way I heard of that film was that Marc Davis said that Lincoln without his suit looked like the Robot in Metropolis. I didn't know what that meant but searched it out. There had been some interactive theater productions in LA (TAMARA) at that time where the audience watched the actors do pieces of the story in different rooms of a house, then they had to share what they knew of the mystery at intermission to get the whole idea. I loved that and thought it was a great model for something more grand and immersive. The main thing was that it worked.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/07/theater/it-may-be-fun-but-is-it-good-theater.html?pagewanted=all

In a way I can kind of understand it not happening, just because how hard it would be for someone (especially investors) to visualize it. That's a brave concept to undertake.

But at the same time, its hard pass something like that up. I just find it mind blowing. Did you ever want to try to incorporate that idea, even on a minimal scale like even a restaurant or perhaps the theming of an attraction in your time at WDI? It's just a shame for something like that to not happen in any compacity.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

In a way I can kind of understand it not happening, just because how hard it would be for someone (especially investors) to visualize it. That's a brave concept to undertake.

But at the same time, its hard pass something like that up. I just find it mind blowing. Did you ever want to try to incorporate that idea, even on a minimal scale like even a restaurant or perhaps the theming of an attraction in your time at WDI? It's just a shame for something like that to not happen in any compacity.

Agreed and yes, I have lots of Restaurant concepts that I'd love to do and infuse theater if it made sense fiscally. (It may be a bit easier now, as Rivera just got "Best new Restaurant of 2009" in LA Magazine).

There was a time when "interactive theater" was a big topic at WDI. The actor driven "Renaissance Fair" was a repeated paradigm. These shows were out there and WDI even brought in an Imagineer (Craig Wilson) that had experience as an improv actor in these "Streetmosphere" type experiences to guide development. We felt that this was a crucial part of the show and needed to be thought of as a part of each land. This is evident by the talent that roams Hollywood Blvd. at the MGM Studios as "citizens" and interacts with the guests as part of the story. So in that sense, it did come true with the Street as the set or stage. Disneyland did this as well with Characters for each land for a time, but budgets kill this stuff in due time. But nothing on the scale of a complete 3 act show. The park in the early days had gunfights in the streets of Frontierland with "Sheriff Lucky", and Knott's did it the best with the "Funfighters", a raging gunfight with lots of guys being thrown through fake windows (that really shatter) above the streets and close to the guests. Train Robberies etc. Very cool. So you can see where my ideas came from. "Tony and Tina's Wedding" (Italian Wedding gone wrong where you are a guest) was the best thing I had ever seen in this realm and was the model for further thinking.

So you can see how the two worlds would meet and I'd just want to take it much further and blow it out to the next level, but weave in food, drink and dancing. There are period events where you dress up and attend an event from the past. My favorite of this variety is coming up!

http://clubcicada.com/armed-forces-tickets.ASP