Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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ValentineMouse

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I thought exactly the same thing, Randy. Disneyland can compete with cinemas, but I have no idea how they'd compete with fully realised virtual reality.

Thankfully that's a long way off, and who knows what may come along in the meantime.
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
^
Such a system would also have to be able to manipulate gravity (the g-forces that make rollercoasters & flumes fun) in order to completely obsolete theme parks.

In the meantime, what I appreciate most at the parks are the meticulously designed environments (e.g., Indiana Jone queue, Maharajah Jungle Trek, Mysterious Island at TDS) - and those can't be replaced by screens or VR headsets.



One area where there is room for a quantum leap improvement in the near future are simulators. Using Star Tours as example, I imagine there are technological advances that could be made in order to heighten the realism of the film (both the way it is shot and presented) so that the eye is totally fooled as to the tactile realness of the world beyond the speeder's windshield.

I'm not sure that wearing 3-D glasses is going to benefit the illusion, but we will see in 2011.
 

ValentineMouse

New Member
The biggest problem I see with screens is that if you move about, the two-dimensionality immediately becomes obvious (even with 3D movies). The Spiderman ride at IoA dealt with this superbly by moving the 'camera' filming each screen when it was recorded in accordance with the ride vehicle so that it mimicked reality superbly. On an individual level, some people have managed to mimic the effect with a Nintendo Wii; take a look here, the effect is spectacular. The only downside of course is that it only works for one person. If there would be anyway to duplicate effect for a number of people simultaneous, it would be revolutionary. Imagine the viewscreen inside the Starspeeder 3000 using technology. It would be amazing.

In fact, thinking about it - I wonder why Toy Story Midway Mania didn't use this.
 

ValentineMouse

New Member
I have to apologise in advance for the huge lengths of my posts! I'm working on my university dissertation at the moment, on a subject very similar to this, and the issue gets the cogs in my head working overtime.

I'll post my thoughts here, but I've also published them over on my blog.

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To recap, my basic argument is that attractions like Pirates, Mansion and perhaps even, eventually, Indy, which rely on immersion over physical thrill, are at threat of being superseded by immersive films if the films continue along their trend of duplicating more and more human senses and motion.

The response by HMF, I suspect, speaks for a number of people when he or she replied; “that post sums up my worst fears.”

It’s an unfortunate opinion, and I can certainly understand where they’re coming from, but I thought I’d explain my reasoning as to why the future doesn’t need to be pessimistic for themed attractions. Initially, I had the same reaction. Pirates of the Caribbean is my favourite attraction, and to think that progress is making it obsolete is worrying. There is something magical about drifting through that built environment that doesn’t seem like it could be replicated by a simulation. Similarly, I have a sadness about the decline of model making and set building in the movie industry – there’s something special about knowing that suit of sci-fi battle armour was built, rather than it just existing in a computer. I’m not intending to argue my point from any predisposed standpoint, I am merely trying to figure out where the trends will lead, what threats Disney may come up against, and how they can react.

Similarly, Tirian suggests that “a physical environment presents the intangible feelings of visual weight, substance, realistic atmosphere, and placesetting that a mere projection cannot provide—not to mention the "WOW!" factor that the incredible environments physically exist.”

The worry at the moment is that the sets will be replaced by fake looking screens, but this shouldn’t be a worry. At the present, yes, screens don’t look as real as physical environments, but that means Disney will only be threatened when the screens do reach that level of sophistication. Whether they reach this level is, I suspect, only a matter of time. When they do reach it; the sets will be replaced by screens so well done, it will be hard to tell the difference, and weight, substance and atmosphere will all be conveyed. The threat will emerge when projections can elicit the same ‘WOW!’ as physical environments – or, at least, we won’t be able to tell the difference. These won’t be typical projection screens; the ideal is ‘glassesless’ 3D, orientating dependent on the individual, even when there are multiple viewers.

But at the same time, I have to point out that I see these high-tech screens will only be part of the attraction, and in fact the physical sets that captivate us so much will be required to take on a greater role in the future. Essentially, let me ask you this; haven’t you at some point desperately wanted to get out of your Pirates bateaux and explore the Pirate world around you? That’s what Disney needs to provide.

At the moment, Disneyland is remarkably an incredibly passive experience, but cinemas will take a hold of passive leisure time and Disneyland needs to act to claim real interactivity and guest control as its own. Yes, the passive dark ride ride-through will be replicable in a theatre, so instead let guests explore and interact with the environment in a way that cinema won’t allow. Pirates of the Caribbean won’t be forgotten, it will be made even more explorable.

That said, there is undoubtedly a pleasurable sensation found in just gently drifting along a water flume. I feel my argument about making things explorable falls down with things like “it’s a small world” – while numerous people would love to step out their boat and explore the town in Pirates, walking through small world just wouldn’t compare to the merrily drifting bateaux.

My solution is as follows; while boat rides and Omnimovers won’t, by themselves, be able to entertain the pleasure seekers of tomorrow, they can compliment immersive environments that can. The ‘old fashioned’ bateaux ride becomes one of many possible activities, not just the sole attraction.

Originally, Disneyland set about building three-dimensional movies. Movies let you watch, and that’s all you did at Disneyland; drifted slowly by and watched. Now, Disneyland needs to build three dimensional video games. Video games let you interact and influence; at Disneyland, that’s what future guests will need.

There are some new issues. If these immersive environments are being vehicle-less, capacity is going to be a major issue. Both Pirates and the Haunted Mansion were intended as walkthroughs, but when it was realised that the capacity simply couldn’t keep up, they needed to redo them to their respective forms of transportation – am I directing myself towards impending doom if I suggest a return to walking? Not necessarily; most of Disney’s lands avoid congestion, and attractions in the future built with this in mind will be able to make safeguards against it. Another problem might be ‘museum feet’ – there is quite simply to much walking and activity for the guest to spend an entire day at the park. Heck, most of us already get tired out at the parks already, and practically all of the attractions have us sitting down. The solution will most likely be all about balance; have some things, like the Mark Twain or Disneyland Railroad, that let us sit down and take a break for a while.

Practically, here’s how I see the future…

Most likely, attractions like Captain EO, Muppets 3D and “it’s tough to be a bug” simply won’t happen. In fact, I’d be very surprised if Disney ever built a 3D show again (although I first said this a good six months ago and then EO came back, so I fully admit I can be wrong!).

Permanence definitely affords Disney an advantage. Imagine a local cinema playing “it’s tough to be a bug”; they could replicate the smells, chair movements and water sprinkles, even the animatronics – hopper, the spiders, Flik and the bug that gets hit by acid - could theoretically be brought in, but it’s unlikely they would theme the outside of the theatre to be a giant tree. The container for the attraction is important I feel; Walt recognised this when he made us walk beneath the train station and separated us from reality. Without the theming inside and out, we almost always know we’re in a movie theatre when we’re watching a film. This is why pre-shows will be important; they are an element that will most likely not be replicated in a movie theatre.

Tirian also pointed out that 3D screens just don’t work for a number of people. This is obviously a fact, but it’s a reality that isn’t impacting the financial viability of cinemas showing 3D films, and I doubt it would impact the viability of these future attractions. More importantly however, I doubt that 3D screens in an attraction will totally be accepted until ‘glassesless’ 3D is brought in. Without a doubt, this will have its own strengths and weaknesses, but we’ll have to wait to find out what these are.

Another issue I’m having trouble figuring is capacity; without Disney’s data and formulae, I don’t think I can made an educated opinion on how to deal with this. But still, if this problem can be conquered, I think I see where Disney should head in the future:

Eventually, I see Pirates of the Caribbean not as a single flume ride through sets and animatronics. Instead, Pirates of the Caribbean will be a high-tech interactive complex. Guests will have access to cutlasses to duel with one-another; rope swings across jungle ravines; cliffs to climb and rock chutes to slide down; access to a huge Pirate galleon where they can climb the rigging, head below decks or fire the cannons at villainous ghost ships appearing and disappearing across the bay. Guests may uncover pirate maps and follow them the piles of stolen treasure hidden in the mysterious ghostly caves, accessible only by creaky rowboat. Guests might relax in the hammocks strung between leaning palm trees, or join the rowdy pirate band singing ‘Yo Ho’ in the raucous tavern. Whilst practicing their aim in the powder room, a misaligned shot may ignite a key of gunpowder and set fire to the town itself. The Governor of the island might be in the Governor’s Mansion, asking for your help in ridding island of its plague of swashbucklers, or we might help Jack Sparrow himself escape from the Fort’s dungeons. And who knows where that voodoo compass leads? Perhaps to the rickety shack in the bayou, where any moment we might stumble across the spell that revives the goddess of the sea summons her to tower above the island. The screens will not be touchable by guests; they will be take the place of the black walls at the far end of the soundstage that currently are lost space, or hidden at the end of impassable caves; even above us as the sky, or on the ground as bottomless pits.

The future of Pirates of the Caribbean won’t be a passive boat ride through a pirate theatre; it will empower you to become a pirate yourself in a highly detailed, fully interactive pirate world … as well as a boat ride ;).

My wonder is what Disney will do when virtual reality becomes so sophisticated that it can simulate reality. I’m reminded of a psychology study that was done that concluded that people would rather have real imperfection that simulated perfection, so perhaps they would prefer actually being in Disneyland – but then perhaps saying Disneyland isn’t simulated perfection is rather naïve.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
To recap, my basic argument is that attractions like Pirates, Mansion and perhaps even, eventually, Indy, which rely on immersion over physical thrill, are at threat of being superseded by immersive films if the films continue along their trend of duplicating more and more human senses and motion.

This is your only point with which I completely disagree. Films cannot literally drop you down a flume, walk you through haunted hallways, or give you whiplash. Motion-synchronized films do, however, exist—and time has proven that for one reason or another, humans prefer physical environments and experiences to those simulators.

Here's another example of what I mean: arcade shooters haven't replaced the intangible thrill and satisfaction of shooting ranges.

...

Essentially, let me ask you this; haven’t you at some point desperately wanted to get out of your Pirates bateaux and explore the Pirate world around you? That’s what Disney needs to provide.

Yes, and the VR experiences you later describe would be absolutely amazing. The POTC game at Disney Quest is a very good example of future possibilities, even though it is only a video game.

...

My solution is as follows; while boat rides and Omnimovers won’t, by themselves, be able to entertain the pleasure seekers of tomorrow, they can compliment immersive environments that can. The ‘old fashioned’ bateaux ride becomes one of many possible activities, not just the sole attraction.

Good idea, although I still disagree with your assuming that everyone wants to physically interact with every possible theme park environment; and that brings me to my next response...

...

Not necessarily; most of Disney’s lands avoid congestion, and attractions in the future built with this in mind will be able to make safeguards against it. Another problem might be ‘museum feet’ – there is quite simply to much walking and activity for the guest to spend an entire day at the park. Heck, most of us already get tired out at the parks already, and practically all of the attractions have us sitting down. The solution will most likely be all about balance; have some things, like the Mark Twain or Disneyland Railroad, that let us sit down and take a break for a while.

...Guests would get more than "museum feet"; they would experience sensory overload. This is the reason the majority of people cannot play video games uninterrupted for hours.

Also, as lazy as the idea sounds, Guests will at some point lose patience with the fact that their experiences completely depend on them. By the third or fourth virtual reality playground (which is essentially what we're discussing), people will probably not care enough to explore every nook and cranny. A balance of interactive, open-ended environments and thrilling, pre-selected experiences (e.g. Space Mountain) presents the best solution.

There's one other caveat—each show building would have to be huge to allow each small group of Guests to create their own experiences that don't interfere with those around them. Of course, we could ask why the attraction needs to be indoors, but that would be ignoring the weather in central Florida.

...

The future of Pirates of the Caribbean won’t be a passive boat ride through a pirate theatre; it will empower you to become a pirate yourself in a highly detailed, fully interactive pirate world … as well as a boat ride ;).



It's a thoughtful and well-expressed response, but it avoids some issues inherent to theme park operations. I pulled out a few quotes and typed my responses in red.

That said, I do agree with your thesis that theme park attractions will have to innovate beyond passive experiences to compete with the increasingly impressive virtual environments found in movie theaters. The question becomes why 3-D technology needs to be the answer. I would rather see immersive, interactive attractions (rides and walkthroughs) that use the best storytelling device suitable for the experience—screens or AAs— than an entire park of screen technologies that require my participation. The sort of interactive environments you described for Pirates would be phenomenal in a few attractions; but if every E-ticket required virtual reality role-playing, the technology would quickly lose its appeal. EPCOT Center's over-reliance on AA Omnimovers exemplifies having too much of a good thing.

To some degree, I am speaking theoretically; I know you don't want to replace every AA attraction with a VR-based equivalent, and I see you do acknowledge the limitations of screen-based attractions in creating fully developed lands.

Again, as Eddie, you, and I have all stated, the best of the future attractions will combine everything to create unparalleled experiences.

Good luck with your dissertation! You have some very good ideas and valid points. I wish we could start another thread discussing all this (since we're essentially hijacking Eddie's thread :eek:), but I know that neither one of us has time to keep up with it. :wave:
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Now even though I'm responding to your post, I'm addressing this to people who think it has to be either 3-D screens or AAs: why not combine both?
That would be great and they used to do that. The problem is many recent rides are fully screen-based. For example; The Seas with Nemo & Friends' Gran Fiesta Tour' MILF and of course the controversial new ending to Spaceship Earth. If you can use screens effectively to compliment AA's (like El Rio Del Tiempo or American Adventure) it would be great. And after seeing Alice in Wonderland I must insist what good are amazing visuals if you don't have a good story to go with it.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
No hijacking at all.

This is a topic I brought up as question, so feel free to keep it going. no need to move to another thread.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Keep the conversation going.

Walt Disney built two portals leading under the Train Station that take you from the real world into his, we all know what the plaques above them say. To me, those are the only two givens, how we immerse you into those worlds beyond the portals is fair game!
 

ValentineMouse

New Member
In that case, if you don't mind a few more comments, Eddie, I'll give a couple more thoughts :).

In reply to Tirian, when you said that "films cannot literally drop you down a flume, walk you through haunted hallways, or give you whiplash", I totally agree - I only intend my argument to apply to tame, passive attractions like Pirates and Mansion. Simulating the tea cups won't do anyone any good, and rollercoasters aren't at threat because their appeal comes from the physical sensations, not what you see along the way, which is what dark rides rely on. With Pirates and Mansion, once you're seated you literally have no interaction with the world around you (unless you rebelliously ignore the request to keep your hands, arms, feet and legs inside ;)). In these situations, if the screen technology is advanced enough, how would you know the difference (obviously that's a big 'if'). The portions of the ride that CAN be interacted with (say, the portrait gallery before you board Mansion) I don't expect to be made obsolete. The fact that you can reach out and touch this is, exactly as you said, what makes them vastly superior to screens. Its this reasoning that makes me feel tangibility needs to be massively expanded.

That said, I can imagine this happening before screens are advanced enough, if the other benefits screens can provide (computer generated imagery and so on) outweigh the perception that it's not real. Ideally, screens need to be photorealistic, simulate changes of viewing angles and be glassesless before I'd be entirely comfortable with them fully replacing sets. I don't know how realistic this is.

Thinking about it, perhaps Spiderman at IoA is kind of what I'm expecting to happen; screens disguised into physical sets, although (even with the massively commendable leap in realism), the screens can still be noticed as screens. When it's mainly the speed that avoids that realisation, slow moving rides like Pirates wouldn't stand a chance.

"As lazy as the idea sounds, Guests will at some point lose patience with the fact that their experiences completely depend on them."

Here, I very much agree with you. For decades now, Disneyland has been passive, television is passive, films are passive - and they're all doing fine. The interactive playgrounds I'm imagining would, for many people, by quite simply exhausting after a while. This is why I definately feel you're correct in saying "a balance of interactive, open-ended environments and thrilling, pre-selected experiences (e.g. Space Mountain) presents the best solution." And wow, won't it be amazing when it happens!

You mention the size of the showbuildings needing to be increased (and I find it funny you mentioned Florida, I'm a Disneylander myself so California is always at the forefront of my mind when I'm thinking about this!), and you're definately right. With more people exploring and interacting, the queues won't be people-eating and the parks going to need a lot more space. That said, if we compare Pirates showbuilding to Snow Whites, there was no problem massively expanding the building size then - I guess we'll just need to do it again, this time on a 21st century scale. Where this will leave the land-locked Disneyland is very puzzling.
 

_Scar

Active Member
Doesn't a 3D show in TDS with Genie use AAs and 3D?

Sorry if this was brought up, I just skimmed what was typed.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Doesn't a 3D show in TDS with Genie use AAs and 3D?

Sorry if this was brought up, I just skimmed what was typed.

I don't recall an AA at the Aladdin show at TDS other than in the pre-show...

Pretty sad that I can't completely remember, when it was only two years ago. :hammer::lol:
 

DougK

Well-Known Member
Just taking a moment to salute the Sherman Brothers, who have done so much for the musical legacy of the Company. Richard Sherman was on hand to receive their window on Main Street today. Congratulations and long overdue!

Wish we all could have been there to see this..

Wow, this honor was WAY overdue. Congratulations to the Sherman Brothers!
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Eddie' Regarding the Train spiel did you have to re-record that when it was re-named Disneyland Paris? BTW' I Love the stained Glass windows on the Train Station with each land represented.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie gets a nod for an unrealized Tokyo Disneyland concept over on the Disney and More Blog today.

Eddie, this sounded like an incredible concept/ride, can you tell us more about it?

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2010/03/will-tron-bikes-attraction-come-to.html

"Rocket Bikes" was inspired by the first Ride I ever worked on, Knott's "Soap Box Racers". SBR was successful in spite of anything I did, as it involved 4 parallel tracks of gravity based "Soap Box" vehicles (formerly Motorcycles) that would compete based on guests leaning into the turns. We added show along the sidelines to make it the first "outdoor dark ride". Kids rerode this thing like there was no tomorrow. Very fun and the show was not that critical to it. The ride system itself (was existing, we just re-themed it and made it safe) had something and I knew that someday it could be very powerful as a paradigm.

So that idea of a competition Motorcycle Ride stuck with me, but making the center of gravity lower like on a chopper (the Knott's cycles were dangerous as they were high off the track). That was the design idea for the Rocket Bikes. Rocket powered, boom boxed, Wheelie popping Choppers in Space. (works for me). Being a child of the Muscle Car 60-70's, Popping "wheelies" on your Schwinn "Stingray" bike was pretty fun and we had "wheelie bars" back then, so we wanted to put that nostalgic NHRA fun into the Bikes too.

The Bikes were styled by an ex Mercedes Benz designer Michael Ma, and we worked well together at getting the styling just "off world" enough and still realistic. We built a working bike on the Disney ranch and tested it for Paul Pressler who mildly liked it but wanted it to be "Star Wars" themed. After it could not work at Disneyland on the Peoplemover beamway, due to clearance and tech issues, we took it to TDL where we added it to the list of shows at Sci-Fi City. Very awesome with a Crater landscape racetrack. I quit the company before it could go much further but basically it died due to cost and TDS needing the SF City capital to open.
 

WDWGoof07

Well-Known Member
"Rocket Bikes" was inspired by the first Ride I ever worked on, Knott's "Soap Box Racers". SBR was successful in spite of anything I did, as it involved 4 parallel tracks of gravity based "Soap Box" vehicles (formerly Motorcycles) that would compete based on guests leaning into the turns. We added show along the sidelines to make it the first "outdoor dark ride". Kids rerode this thing like there was no tomorrow. Very fun and the show was not that critical to it. The ride system itself (was existing, we just re-themed it and made it safe) had something and I knew that someday it could be very powerful as a paradigm.

So that idea of a competition Motorcycle Ride stuck with me, but making the center of gravity lower like on a chopper (the Knott's cycles were dangerous as they were high off the track). That was the design idea for the Rocket Bikes. Rocket powered, boom boxed, Wheelie popping Choppers in Space. (works for me). Being a child of the Muscle Car 60-70's, Popping "wheelies" on your Schwinn "Stingray" bike was pretty fun and we had "wheelie bars" back then, so we wanted to put that nostalgic NHRA fun into the Bikes too.

The Bikes were styled by an ex Mercedes Benz designer Michael Ma, and we worked well together at getting the styling just "off world" enough and still realistic. We built a working bike on the Disney ranch and tested it for Paul Pressler who mildly liked it but wanted it to be "Star Wars" themed. After it could not work at Disneyland on the Peoplemover beamway, due to clearance and tech issues, we took it to TDL where we added it to the list of shows at Sci-Fi City. Very awesome with a Crater landscape racetrack. I quit the company before it could go much further but basically it died due to cost and TDS needing the SF City capital to open.
That's very interesting.

I don't post here that much, Eddie, but, when I do log on, I love reading your posts and the other discussions in this thread. It's the highlight of these message boards! Thanks for all your stories and insights.
 
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