Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

This has often made me wonder what exactly is different now about Tom Sawyer Island. The novel Tom Sawyer was no more contemporary int the fifties than it is today. Mark Twain lived and died long before Anyone from that generation was around and yet TSI was much more popular then. So is it just that TSI needs to be updated to appeal to current tastes in entrrtainment or is there something deeper going on?

True. It may be that kids are not as well read in the "old classics" as they were several generations ago. I know I'm not! Tom Sawyer is a book about race as well. So each generation has it's tastes and subject matter. I saw a documentary where the narrator, being in his seventies (my dad's era) said "ours was the last generation to memorize poetry." As if these things slip away into the past. The other thing you look at is what kids dream of being or act out at play. Space Fantasies, DOD and other stories/genres took the place of Westerns and Tom Sawyer. Disney/Walden is trying to take kid's books of today that have worlds like Narnia and Teribithia and dimensionalize them on film. Harry Potter is the biggest new classic and is very much read by kids. (What a segway back to theme parks!) No matter what, TSI is still a unique playground.

 

[HMF]

The deeper resonance of the lands is pretty much lost now, except for the intrinsic things that are more timeless, like Tom Sawyer's Island. Kids will always want to explore caves, but they are not reliving that book per se as they don't savor the story like the do Pirates, so the company changes it to Pirates.

But Eddie' didn't you come up with some of the original concepts for Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island? I read that somewhere.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

But Eddie' didn't you come up with some of the original concepts for Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island? I read that somewhere.

That is true. This was during the Pressler era of closing rides and saving cost. The proposal was to lose the rafts and do a subterreanean catacomb that begins in a crypt in the Hm graveyard and leads to a underground capsized vessel beneath "Lafitte's Island" across the ROA. In history, there was a real island directly across from New Orleans called Barrataria where Lafitte's Pirates traded with the cityfolk. This was an homage to that with lots of cool effects, etc. The TSI pirate idea we see today came later and is based on the POTC films.

In Kevin Yee's 101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland, his "No. 27" is this:
Quote:
A canal in New Orleans Square, labeled "1764," is all that remains of a plan to unify several themes in the land.

The plan called for a crypt next to the Mansion that led into an underground catacomb of treasure and dead pirates, culminating in a pirate-themed hideout on Tom Sawyer Island. The pirate theme would have focused on Jean Laffite, a real-life pirate from the early 1800s in New Orleans. Laffite’s name might be familiar to frequent Disneyland visitors from the Pirates of the Caribbean loading zone, where a sign reads "Laffite’s Landing." The date 1764 was derived by subtracting 200 years from the birth date of one Imagineer who worked on the project. FURTHERMORE: Before its replacement with La Petite Patisserie, there was also a Laffite’s Silver Shop in New Orleans Square. Having a Jean Laffite identified as the "owner" of the Haunted Mansion would have united Pirates of the Caribbean with the Mansion and the island into one underlying theme, an unusual feat for an entire land. Though unrealized, the plan lives on in the form of this barricaded "crypt."

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

That is true. This was during the Pressler era of closing rides and saving cost. The proposal was to lose the rafts and do a subterreanean catacomb that begins in a crypt in the Hm graveyard and leads to a underground capsized vessel beneath "Lafitte's Island" across the ROA. In history, there was a real island directly across from New Orleans called Barrataria where Lafitte's Pirates traded with the cityfolk. This was an homage to that with lots of cool effects, etc. The TSI pirate idea we see today came later and is based on the POTC films.

In Kevin Yee's 101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland, his "No. 27" is this:
Quote:
A canal in New Orleans Square, labeled "1764," is all that remains of a plan to unify several themes in the land.

The plan called for a crypt next to the Mansion that led into an underground catacomb of treasure and dead pirates, culminating in a pirate-themed hideout on Tom Sawyer Island. The pirate theme would have focused on Jean Laffite, a real-life pirate from the early 1800s in New Orleans. Laffite’s name might be familiar to frequent Disneyland visitors from the Pirates of the Caribbean loading zone, where a sign reads "Laffite’s Landing." The date 1764 was derived by subtracting 200 years from the birth date of one Imagineer who worked on the project. FURTHERMORE: Before its replacement with La Petite Patisserie, there was also a Laffite’s Silver Shop in New Orleans Square. Having a Jean Laffite identified as the "owner" of the Haunted Mansion would have united Pirates of the Caribbean with the Mansion and the island into one underlying theme, an unusual feat for an entire land. Though unrealized, the plan lives on in the form of this barricaded "crypt."

Sounds pretty awesome, and spooky! I've read about the "Pirate Island" of NO...Cool stuff.

 

[CBOMB]

Yes. I agree that POTC in 1967 was a complete breakthrough in entertainment. Nothing like it anywhere on Earth. You could not explain what you had just seen. I was 9 when I first saw that show and my grandfather had to go twice as they were so blown away. So that attraction crossed over to my Grandparents. I saw it through his eyes! It was a marvel. Then those AA shows became a "format" and were repeated in different flavors till the wonder or the quality of execution faded. One of the early rules I was taught years ago was that you could not get anyone to watch an AA sing a whole song as they could not sustain the audience, so you did a few verses and you're on to the next Bear or whatever. I guess Lincoln is different, as it is content driven, or you just have to get up and leave in front of everyone!

Creating new ride systems to enhance a story was always a personal goal at WDI. That "wow" that makes something exclusively Disney. I think we got there with TDL Pooh and I hope they continue to use that system and plus it into something amazing.

One of the tough things about today is that you really can't deliver the kind of thrills and imagery in the Rides as well as what they saw at the movies. So you try to create the environment and not try and outdo the big moments in the movie. Add building codes and a few lawyers and you're really in handcuffs. Those 1967 "breakthroughs" are harder and more expensive to come by and expectations are huge as the audience expects that you can simulate anything.

So the question is, can those breakthroughs still be achieved? (The expectations of my grandfather back then were pretty low). I think so and hopefully new technologies will allow us to deliver thrills and story in new ways. I would love to see and ride the Kuka things I read about. I hope we don't lean on 3D and media to the point where we are just having the same movie experience, but with a lap bar. I'm sure they'll figure it all out.

I had to smile when I read this. I first saw POTC in September of 1967 on my first trip to DL. I was 18 at the time, but had been a huge fan since the Park had opened.

I was absolutely blown completely away when I road Pirates. I had to immediately ride it again because I just knew those were real people wearing make-up.

Things are so much different now as you mentioned the way Pirates is viewed through your childrens eye's.

Do you think having your own children now would effect the way you would design a Disney like attraction?

 

[_Scar]

Eddie, do you think Animal Kingdom will get JttCotE from DisneySea?

 

[HMF]

That is true. This was during the Pressler era of closing rides and saving cost. The proposal was to lose the rafts and do a subterreanean catacomb that begins in a crypt in the Hm graveyard and leads to a underground capsized vessel beneath "Lafitte's Island" across the ROA. In history, there was a real island directly across from New Orleans called Barrataria where Lafitte's Pirates traded with the cityfolk. This was an homage to that with lots of cool effects, etc. The TSI pirate idea we see today came later and is based on the POTC films.

In Kevin Yee's 101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland, his "No. 27" is this:
Quote:
A canal in New Orleans Square, labeled "1764," is all that remains of a plan to unify several themes in the land.

The plan called for a crypt next to the Mansion that led into an underground catacomb of treasure and dead pirates, culminating in a pirate-themed hideout on Tom Sawyer Island. The pirate theme would have focused on Jean Laffite, a real-life pirate from the early 1800s in New Orleans. Laffite’s name might be familiar to frequent Disneyland visitors from the Pirates of the Caribbean loading zone, where a sign reads "Laffite’s Landing." The date 1764 was derived by subtracting 200 years from the birth date of one Imagineer who worked on the project. FURTHERMORE: Before its replacement with La Petite Patisserie, there was also a Laffite’s Silver Shop in New Orleans Square. Having a Jean Laffite identified as the "owner" of the Haunted Mansion would have united Pirates of the Caribbean with the Mansion and the island into one underlying theme, an unusual feat for an entire land. Though unrealized, the plan lives on in the form of this barricaded "crypt."

Eddie ' do you know anything about this?
http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...en-haunted-mansion-effect-19.html#post1592649
Scroll to post 281.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Sounds pretty awesome, and spooky! I've read about the "Pirate Island" of NO...Cool stuff.

I thought so. In the interview there's a sketch I did on vacation inside the crypt of Lafitte. http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/ Injun Joe's Cave was redone to be a cortroom with a plank for the guilty to walk over the bottomless pit. I wanted to basically see if you could do more in the tradition of the caves of POTC with the voices, etc.

The fort was replaced by a buried capsized ship acting as a hideout under the brush. There were cannons you could fire inside and a pirate saloon. PopRock type "gunpower" was there for you to add to your drink (Chinese Pirates drank gunpowder in their rum) for a explosion in your mouth. Caves led out of the ship to buried treasure. The goal was to make it all pretty concealed as to not spoil the existing look, and history based as was done with the Columbia,etc.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie ' do you know anything about this?
http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...en-haunted-mansion-effect-19.html#post1592649
Scroll to post 281.

Sure. I asked them to do the walled in arch. The mixture of brick walls and english ballast stone in the esplanade is inspired by the "Factors walk" waterfront in Savannah, Georgia. https://secure.reservexl.net/wwwimg/img/tours/9077-2.jpg
Matt McKim put his birthday 200 years early on there. It wasn't meant to actually be an entry to anything, just for looks to show the layering of the old waterfront, but it became an homage to the Lafitte Island idea as that was to be the location for the Lafitte Crypt up the knoll.

 

[HMF]

Matt McKim put his birthday 200 years early on there. .

Is Matt McKim' Sam's son?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I thought so. In the interview there's a sketch I did on vacation inside the crypt of Lafitte. http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/ Injun Joe's Cave was redone to be a cortroom with a plank for the guilty to walk over the bottomless pit. I wanted to basically see if you could do more in the tradition of the caves of POTC with the voices, etc.

The fort was replaced by a buried capsized ship acting as a hideout under the brush. There were cannons you could fire inside and a pirate saloon. PopRock type "gunpower" was there for you to add to your drink (Chinese Pirates drank gunpowder in their rum) for a explosion in your mouth. Caves led out of the ship to buried treasure. The goal was to make it all pretty concealed as to not spoil the existing look, and history based as was done with the Columbia,etc.

Very, VERY nice, Eddie! That would have been fantastic. Almost like a "Castle Walkthrough" but only in NOS and for Pirates/HM. Epic.

Sure. I asked them to do the walled in arch. The mixture of brick walls and english ballast stone in the esplanade is inspired by the "Factors walk" waterfront in Savannah, Georgia. https://secure.reservexl.net/wwwimg/img/tours/9077-2.jpg
Matt McKim put his birthday 200 years early on there. It wasn't meant to actually be an entry to anything, just for looks to show the layering of the old waterfront, but it became an homage to the Lafitte Island idea as that was to be the location for the Lafitte Crypt up the knoll.

Amazing how much history and fact is injected into what is done. I've walked there...It's an amazing place, and an amazing city, Savannah.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Is Matt McKim' Sam's son?

Yes he is.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Very, VERY nice, Eddie! That would have been fantastic. Almost like a "Castle Walkthrough" but only in NOS and for Pirates/HM. Epic.
Amazing how much history and fact is injected into what is done. I've walked there...It's an amazing place, and an amazing city, Savannah.

Here is some of what I read as research. The disputed but amazing memoirs of Lafitte himself! Faked his own death and lived his life in Oklahoma. A great read.
http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Jean-Laffite/dp/0738812536

This book is the earliest known stories so it is closest to the real thing.

http://www.amazon.com/Pirates-Own-B...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248827452&sr=1-1

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Do you think having your own children now would effect the way you would design a Disney like attraction?

Yes, I'd be sure there was wifi so they can text and surf the net on their phones while riding through the show :lol:

Seriously, that's what we've been discussing in the last page or two. I'm more in touch to how things come off to kids (intense, scary) as I was less sensitive when I worked there.

 

[Huck]

I thought so. In the interview there's a sketch I did on vacation inside the crypt of Lafitte. http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/ Injun Joe's Cave was redone to be a cortroom with a plank for the guilty to walk over the bottomless pit. I wanted to basically see if you could do more in the tradition of the caves of POTC with the voices, etc.

The fort was replaced by a buried capsized ship acting as a hideout under the brush. There were cannons you could fire inside and a pirate saloon. PopRock type "gunpower" was there for you to add to your drink (Chinese Pirates drank gunpowder in their rum) for a explosion in your mouth. Caves led out of the ship to buried treasure. The goal was to make it all pretty concealed as to not spoil the existing look, and history based as was done with the Columbia,etc.

Holy Cow!!
Pop Rocks in your soda!? Thank goodness this attraction never saw the light of day! Imagine the carnage!

 

[Huck]

You know, Eddie, the more I read about your reminiscences of DLR and those of others here, the more I'm feeling another trip to Anaheim coming on!
Your point about Potter being the new Tom Sawyer is well made, but I'm not sure that I'm ready to anoint JK Rowling the new Sam Clemens, however. Still, the fact that her writing is so accessible to readers of all ages really does put her in the company of people like Disney and Lassiter among many others. I really do hope that USO can build that broad appeal into their Potterland. It might give me a better reason to actually go there for a change. Wonder how my kids would react to that? "You mean there's another theme park down here?!?"

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Holy Cow!!
Pop Rocks in your soda!? Thank goodness this attraction never saw the light of day! Imagine the carnage!

It makes a great laxative. Now you know why the foods folks were scared of me.:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Here is some of what I read as research. The disputed but amazing memoirs of Lafitte himself! Faked his own death and lived his life in Oklahoma. A great read.
http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Jean-Laffite/dp/0738812536

This book is the earliest known stories so it is closest to the real thing.

http://www.amazon.com/Pirates-Own-B...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248827452&sr=1-1

Very interesting...I'll have look him up.

 

[CaptainMichael]

Very interesting...I'll have look him up.

He was also very instrumental in the defeat of the British in the Battle of New Orleans (War of 1812).

 

[Eddie Sotto]

He was also very instrumental in the defeat of the British in the Battle of New Orleans (War of 1812).

Yes and to hear Lafitte tell it in his memoirs you'd be surprised. READ THIS LINK, you won't be sorry. Ever since I saw the sign on over my head while boarding POTC "Lafitte's Landing" I was curious.

http://jeanlafitte.net/

Jean Lafitte was a man who was offended to be called a Pirate and known to be a patriot, but sold slaves as was the custom. Technically he was a privateer, hired by governments with a letter of marque. This spawned a big Micechat rumor that the Pirates, TSI (his figure was in the fort) and HM (props from the fort are in the attic now) were all thematically linked by Andrew Jackson and Lafitte. Not a conscious effort.

Let's not go there.